West Cornwall Local - 4th November - Plus Improvements

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG JD, Nov 1, 2021.

  1. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    I've never seen this community commit such a U- turn on an add on as they have with this route when the layers got announced. Not very long ago there was talk of boycotting it and multiple people saying they'd refuse to buy it, and now the layers are here the route is suddenly the best thing since sliced bread.

    Don't get me wrong I'm glad of it but it still hasn't sold it for me. It makes the time period seem a bit dubious to me and that'll hurt my immersion. I could always play without the layers but I'm not uninstalling NTP for that.

    The 150 sounds are what matter to me more than anything else. I won't be buying it until I've heard what the tweaked sounds are like on Thursday's stream.
     
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  2. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    I agree mate. I am pleased about the layers but yes, it seems that yo ensure a good pay day, the 150 sounds are being ignored for the sake of a more lively atmosphere...
     
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  3. gogglesguy

    gogglesguy Member

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    These layer "improvements" do come at a premium though with an additional $20/$40 on top of the route for the optional DLCs. Would people still rate it as high if they had to buy all 3 DLCs at release time, because I can only assume that people who are really excited about the NTP layers already have the needed DLCs.

    And of course the issue that even if you're only interested in passenger trains, you'll still need the Heavy Freight DLC to take advantage of the 47 passenger service.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2021
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  4. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Yes they were. 1985 one visited penzance, was a tour i guess
    Screenshot_20211102-055805_Chrome.jpg


    Screenshot_20211102-055601_Chrome.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2021
  5. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Except for the cl.40 i didnt see a loco, which doesnt match the time periode.
    Its about 2 years overlay, so its not gonna stop my experience. There was also a withdrawn cl45 at thornaby tmd around 1991.

    1976 layers in a 90s route would be more out of fantasya land. Ntp is matching perfectly.
     
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  6. fezza

    fezza Active Member

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    I'm afraid this is just getting a bit silly now - 40s were very rare anywhere west of Taunton and unknown beyond Exeter (except on railtours) even before they were withdrawn at least six years before this is set.

    Offer fantasy timetables if you wish, but please give us a real one with authentic services too so we have a choice. Otherwise this is just Train Set World, where you play with what you want, rather than a simulation.

    Will these fantasy locos appear on AI services? If a 40 suddenly appears on an AI intercity service of blue/grey coaches in 1993, anyone with the remotest knowledge of railways will lose any sense of immersion.
     
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  7. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Playing Devils Advocate, I wonder if DTG will sweeten the deal even further with an introductory discount, shirt off back tome I know but that might offer the final incentive to those still on the fence about the whole thing. £19.99 would do nicely and it is only a short route still anyway.
     
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  8. marcsharp2

    marcsharp2 Well-Known Member

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    Good grief, People complaining about "loss of immersion" or "fantasy timetables" because stuff has been ported over from NTP to help the route feel more alive because those same people were complaining about it being a bit dull with just 150s, The majority of loco hauled stock will be 47s,There is a slim chance a 45 or 40 will spawn unless you choose to drive one. So what if they had gone by then? Just say its a Railtour if it bothers you that much. There was no way DTG or Rivet were going to build brand new Locos and carriages for the route in two weeks with the accurate sounds, Never going to happen. It had already been explained why the HST wasn't part of it as it would need a complete rebuild to fit in with the time period, So this is the best that can be done, I appreciate them reworking the timetable and giving extra services to help make a route more interesting to drive or be a passenger or Train spotter on. This was always going to be a day one purchase for me and having Locos and Mark 2 carriages in West Cornwall with the 150 and 101 is a real throwback to my childhood holidays from that period of time, I can't wait.
     
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  9. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    They weren’t even that common at Bristol or even Gloucester, in fact anywhere on the Western. I worked in the WR Train Planning section from 1983 to 1989 and after that the Regional Control office and I certainly don’t recall any planned workings. There was plenty of work for 45s and the odd pair of 31s made it down to Bristol on a summer Saturday, though they usually failed by then and got taken off for a Duff to go forward.
     
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  10. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it was a complete boycott so much as a reluctance to buy at launch. I'll still be waiting until the trophies reappear by which point it'll probably be reduced in price, but as a package, it's certainly far more compelling than it was, particularly as many fans of the older trains will already have NTP and Heavy Freight.
     
  11. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't it be appropriate for the additional stock being added to have the livery editor added to them? Surely, we can have a play around doing the liveries and amending it to a 90s sort of theme?

    Can anybody from DTG confirm please?
     
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  12. marcsharp2

    marcsharp2 Well-Known Member

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    The Mark two carriages can be altered on Livery editor as can the 40
     
  13. Yoinkermcskoinker

    Yoinkermcskoinker Well-Known Member

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    Yes but you require DLGW to use them
     
  14. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Well-Known Member

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    A "like" was not enough. You have put it so much better than I could. Agree 110%
     
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  15. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    Sadly they don't work, only through the use of the Diesel Legends pack. I uninstalled the diesel Legends pack yesterday and they disappeared. That means that the liveries won't be utilised on the West Cornwall route
     
  16. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    There's no ETA on adding livery support for NTP trains at the moment.
     
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  17. fezza

    fezza Active Member

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    Of course the other way to make the timetable realistic is to ditch the 150 ( which doesn't sound like it's well modelled anyway) and run it as a 1984/5 ish timetable. Then a 31, 45, 47 and 101 in BR blue would be entirely plausible - and yes you could do the 40 on the odd railtour. Why not make that a timetable option?
     
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  18. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    It's not accurately made in terms of its movement and the sounds. It seems we are going back on time, rather than forward. Brilliantly built but physics and sounds are atrocious. There is another open thread about that.

    Its not very accurate and removes the simulation/realism aspect. It really needs overhauling, but as per usual, DLC add-ons take over the priority to ensure the add on makes profit, rather than less complaints and more satisfaction of the product.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2021
  19. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    This would have been the ideal solution, a bit like was done with the 1938 stock for Bakerloo (which also strangely seems to be lingering in my game despite refunding it!).
     
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  20. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely not. The 150 makes the route (if only the sound was a bit better). Actually the sound of the 150 isn’t as bad as is made out. All the notes are there. Just not necessarily in the correct order.
     
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  21. fezza

    fezza Active Member

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    I'm not suggesting scrapping the 150 altogether - just offering a 1984/5 timetable without it as an alternative for those looking for a more realistic experience.
     
  22. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    For me this has all happened because they set the route in the wrong period in the first place. DTG have the Great Western Railway license and from my experience in dealing with train companies GWR is one of the most marketable brands out there and they have a great PR department. The fact Rivet said in a recent stream that the reason they set it in the early 90s was because of branding to me just stinks.

    If they had set it in present day with GWR they had the HST there in game, ready and waiting to be layered on, along with the 166 and the 66 and it would have made an awesome route. This whole setting routes in different time periods and adding stock that wasn't running at the time or is just plain wrong like the Mk2a/b/c's instead of f's just to make it more lively is ridiculous. Why are the German routes generally the best in terms of gameplay? Because they are all in the same time period and have massive crossover potential. Why is London-Brighton the best British route? Because it had a genius timetable creator in Joe and layers galore that are actually realistic (for next gen and PC).

    If Rivet didn't want to create a 90s Valenta HST and didn't want to set it in present day they should have gone for something else like a Northern historic route that could have fitted in better with NTP and Tees Valley. You can't set the Great Western Mainline in the 90s and not have an HST present.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2021
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  23. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    A mid 80s timetable with no Pacers would be "more realistic?"
     
  24. alexjjones6024

    alexjjones6024 Well-Known Member

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    What I don't understand is why are the terminating services left at Penzance platforms overnight, rather than ECS services to long rock depot? Same as in the morning bringing them into service?
    Has this now been implemented on the updated version?
    Can anybody advise?
     
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  25. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Can’t recall for the period in question but outstabling of stock is a not uncommon occurrence. It saves space and movements on/off depot and in the case of Sprinter traction the fuel range means they could work two days in between FPX. The complication comes when you have an overnight T3 possession of the station and the civil engineer wants his line.
     
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  26. DeJaPa

    DeJaPa Member

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    For some it seems that DTG or Rivet can never win. There’s always that one tiny detail that will ‘break immersion’ or ‘make someone loose their head’.

    I for one am pleasantly surprised to find this change. I think it will add so much more life to this route. I am not a fan boy, I have been critical towards DTG, Rivet and Skyhook Games. But when they do good, I’ll be sure to let them know too!

    For those who’s it’s never enough, if you think you can do it better? Build your own simulator and see how that works out for you.

    Thanks DTG and Rivet for making these adaptations.
     
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  27. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    Completely agree. The 90s feel like such an awkward half step between modern day and genuinely historic routes like NTP. It's so obvious that the original plan was to set it in modern day, and how they weren't able to put GWR branding in is baffling considering it's already in the game. Surely whoever develops the route is irrelevant, DTG are still the ones who publish the product. I just wish Matt or Jasper or someone else would clarify the details, because as it is it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
     
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  28. marcsharp2

    marcsharp2 Well-Known Member

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  29. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad you said "mostly". I think you'll find that when reading through this thread, is that there will be a few in the "community" that are happy some of the time!
     
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  30. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    I and many others would be happy enough to have another BR blue route. The desperation to have all things modern is lost on me when you can go out and ride around on them right now. 101s and the like are preservation only. All the comments about lack of realism miss the main point that after a few runs with the 150 and the 37 which I am not knocking in themselves the route would probably go the same way as TGV and LiRR in my collection never used. These extra services bring it to life. No way are they going to produce new mk2s and 47 liveries just to to be era accurate.
     
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  31. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Rivet done the same thing with IOW and put NSE livery onto a modern route (even though the 38 stock ran in an unbranded red livery for a good few years prior to receiving SWR island line decals).
     
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  32. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    To me it seems "era accurate", except cl.40 & 45 which could count as rail tour.

    Screenshot_20211102-055011_Chrome.jpg Screenshot_20211102-055601_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20211102-055155_Chrome.jpg
     

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    Last edited: Nov 3, 2021
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  33. fezza

    fezza Active Member

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    The Pacers or Skippers only operated from Laira from 1986 as the Western got the second batch. They only lasted two years because - to use the technical term mentioned to me at the time by an engineer - they were s h I t.

    There were plenty of other DMUs in the area - including 101s which are period correct
     
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  34. fezza

    fezza Active Member

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    Remember the preserved diesel ban meant preserved diesels could not operate passenger railtours in this period. So withdrawn 40s and 45s could not run railtours in 1992/3.
     
  35. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    What lunacy was that?
     
  36. Yoinkermcskoinker

    Yoinkermcskoinker Well-Known Member

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    You sure?
    EC0A7E83-DADE-4552-BBB2-7AF08723675A.jpeg F1542972-686A-4BD1-A5A9-09C9F9AB2A09.jpeg
     
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  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    From what I can see the depot never hosted 150s, with these going to Laira, so maybe overnight stabling at Penzance is "accurate enough"
     
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  38. fezza

    fezza Active Member

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    During the 1980s and early 1990s privately owned preserved diesels were banned from charters or passenger operations on BR metals. (Only light engine movements were allowed and these were very, very rare and unofficial as the rules prevented it). The ban only ended with privatisation and open access rules - and only then when the locos concerned had been specially prepared for main line operation with new safety systems. The first Deltic hit the network on a charter in 1996.

    In short you can't just run any loco that has been withdrawn in this period and claim it is "preserved" - that didn't and couldn't happen.

    This sort of error makes me wonder if DTG really do have knowledgeable rail professionals in their team - no one with real-world operational and period knowledge would make this mistake.

    Some people clearly don't care about authenticity and just want to run trains. And that's fair enough, but developers should be clear about what is real and what is fantasy operation
     
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  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Just diesels, not steam or electric; what was the purported logic behind that?
     
  40. fezza

    fezza Active Member

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    It's a very long story - a lot of so called preserved diesels were in too poor a condition for main line operation, many did not have modern safety systems, it was feared preservation groups didn't have the cash for professional restoration, the unions feared it was a backdoor for the introduction of private operators, BR didn't want the hassle...

    The steam ban was lifted in 1971 due to public demand and SLOA, an owner's group, coordinated operations taking the pressure off BR. I think the diesel ban covered electrics, but it wasn't really an issue as there were barely any electrics at this time suitable for express running on the main line.
     
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  41. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the explanation, actually heard the first time of that.

    Well with the layers created, remove the cl.40 loco substitution via mod is easier than add the entire layer. Im just glad they worked on that to create more variety.
     
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  42. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    The layers do offer more substance. However I’ll be convinced if the scenery and sounds are better, so far whilst Penzance looks to be more complete lineside. The town itself still bares no real resemblance, so thats a minus. I wait to see if the Atlantic coast branch and mainline to St Austell look any better.
     
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  43. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but that just looks wrong. Maybe to a casual player it'll look okay but to a more 'hardcore' simulator enthusiast, such as myself, I don't really like liveries on trains/rolling stock which never wore them in real life.
     
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  44. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    08C6FE40-4164-4018-8D02-EE3513F18B76.jpeg
    Probably better (via mods) swapping out the regional mk2a’s for the modded blue mk1s and replacing the class 40 with a Blue 33. Reskinning should also manage to give the BGs and class 47 a sector parcels livery without being scuppered by mirroring. I’ll do an BR large logo and Railfreight distribution sector livery on the 37.
    The Virgin Cross Country mk2as used to penzance are a much sleeker design Yoinkermcskoinker
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
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  45. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    Does this mean the scenario Slow ride has not been fixed yet.
     
  46. james64

    james64 Well-Known Member

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    Why are we even talking about Virgin livery Mk2s when that's also not era appropriate? This route is set in the early 90s before privatisation. Surely intercity swallow is the livery we should be looking at?
     
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  47. Yoinkermcskoinker

    Yoinkermcskoinker Well-Known Member

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    Virgin never had MK2as this is a MK2f and technically they are the same design but the mk2f has aircon and different windows and doors

    I agree.
     
  48. Southern Driver

    Southern Driver Active Member

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    The route is set in the 1990s and yet the 150/2 has a poster in it featuring a 150/2 that has FGW blue livery and the AWS isolation lever is labelled as ‘TPWS’.
     
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  49. fezza

    fezza Active Member

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    I think we have to assume that there is a time warp portal somewhere near the Long Rock washer... there can be no other explanation for all these bizarre inconsistencies.

    I wonder if they'd worked on this route as a 2020 era route, but then couldn't get the licenses for a reasonable sum. I honestly don't think a sensible person would have designed this route without the HST as it was the core motive power on the line for so long.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
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  50. mldaureol2

    mldaureol2 Active Member

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    Just released on Steam.
    Let’s see what the feedback is like.
    Mike.;)
     

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