I like to play with no HUD elements including the top left timing display, and just rely on cab instruments. I also like to reference cab clocks for schedule monitoring. The LIRR has a decent display, though no Odometer. Now with the Boston Sprinter, the ACS modern display has a clock display but it's tiny on the monitor, and just barely legible. The F40 and CTC have no clock at all. Why wouldn't there by a clock installed? Also, why are there no odometers on trains? I've seen the distance meter which can be turned on the ACS, but it's not very prominent? I'll probably set and use an external watch instead. Any thoughts?
Most trains don't have odometers, a record of mileage, or in the case of UK locos hours run, is kept on the various resource control computer systems. These in turn are used to keep tabs on fuel and any maintenance exams that become due.
I think I misused the word "odometer". I was thinking about trip meters to keep track of distances travelled, with references to maps or guides for navigation purposes. Seems like an obvious and basic piece of information. This being the same with clocks for that purpose, to stay on schedule. Knowing distances between stations, this info would be very handy for anticipating stops.. So I'm puzzled. As to odometers, ya, hours are more informative for engines that idle often and load is more important than wheels rolling.
At least as far as the UK is concerned, this should be route knowledge. It is the responsibility of the driver to know where they are under any conditions - Drivers therefore will use milemarkers, signals, stations or landmarks (such as a particular house, a bridge, a tunnel, even counting overhead wire masts) to work this out. Drivers should know when to stop for a station. Presumably wrist watches are used in cases of DOO to keep to schedule (although no one will lose any sleep if the train's a few minutes late), otherwise it's the responsibility of station staff or the guard to make sure the train departs on time.
Sure, I understand what you're saying about knowing the route. Of course you want the engineer to know it. But this is almost like purposely not installing a distance meter to create an bigger challenge. I'd think any instrument, especially as simple as a distance meter would be a welcome addition to increase situational awareness. The newer locos with electronic displays seem to have this feature. So I understand there are obviously alternative means to locate yourself and you can wear a wristwatch. But it just simply seems dumb. And for passenger service, yes, being on time is not irrelevant. I'd think ensuring an engineer knows the time if he happens to forget his watch would be a basic thing.. It's not exactly an expensive item. Yes, I'm being a stickler and verbose about this relatively minor thing, it's just strange to me.
Here's the cab of a British Class 156 - where would such a display be put without ripping out half the dashboard? (also, these used to have clocks in them but they were taken out, I don't know if the radios display time?) (Image by Roger marks) If a driver knows the route well enough (and you have to know the route like the back of your hand in the UK in order to be able to drive it on your own - however Germany has the Ebula system which sounds like what you're describing, but isn't implemented in the game), such a device wouldn't be necessary (and surely it would effectively turn a train driver into an overpaid button pusher, particularly if it tells them how much brake to use, etc) - bus drivers aren't given satnavs or maps, they're expected to know the route they're driving. Give them one at the start of the day if they don't have one? Also, in the UK most stations by now have clocks on them and frequently there'll be station staff that handle the departure of the train - they're the ones responsible for its on-time departure.
There are trackside mileposts every 1/10th mile on US and UK routes, and every 200 m on European routes. Why add another gadget to the cab when all you have to do is look out the window?
But not in the game, at least none that I could find Then again there is nowhere in the OR in the documentation (oops lack of) that explain any of the signs on the transit route (exception for the documentation to Rivet Game, who does provide documentation)
Ok, didn't expect arguments AGAINST having a clock, as if it's some special instrument or if it's somehow a bad thing to have. As to location, literally anywhere there would fit, damn. It's not like knowing the time would make someone lazy about knowing the route. I'm not going to list examples of when knowing the time is useful, as that seems silly. In Sim reality, instead of relying on the game display time, I have a printed stop schedule and use a "clock instrument" to tell me how long to wait at station before leaving if I arrive early. You don't want to leave earlier than scheduled, since passengers may rely on that time to make the train. The LIRR has a time display. And it's easier than sticking your head out the window to find the platform display. I didn't think this was controversial. As to the UK drivers knowing the routes, you reminded me of the rigorous knowledge exam London taxi drivers must pass about every city street. I can appreciate that level of professionalism. I certainly like to know surroundings and have a map instead of relying on step by step directions. When off trail mountaineering or forest backpacking it's enjoyable to navigate by map and compass only. As to distance.. yea you can look out the window, sure. Again, don't see the advantage of NOT having a trip meter. Good to hear different opinions. Guess, I would be the only engineer asking for these fancy devices. BTW, I recorder speed limits and slopes for the whole route and made a chart, with landmarks to learn the route and have good situational awareness, so I'm not one to make it easier. Just like cross referencing. Anyway.. HAPPY NEW YEAR!
They're right there, hard to miss (in fact, you can't help but read them on German routes, since at any distance they resemble speedboards).
I have indeed been trying to rely on mile markers, and they are nowhere near consistent with occurrence and location, or I'm just not good at seeing. Speeding by at 100 trying to read a sign vs glancing at a screen.. hmm, which is more reliable and keeps you eyes on instrument monitoring better. Again, no advantage to NOT having this information. The whole railroad industry is stupid about this and I as an occasional train sim gamer know better.
I was talking about the device to tell you where you are on the route, not the clock (where the TPWS buttons are in that picture used to be a clock)
Oh German routes, they're attached to the OHLE masts, or large free-standing signs. I'm guessing this is read as 75.6km from [somewhere].
In the UK, they're a small yellow triangular thing. This should be read as 45.5 miles from [somewhere, presumably London]. 1 dot is for .25 miles, 3 dots for .75 miles IIRC. I think these are mainly for the benefit of track workers, so drivers will likely use more substantial things like signals. Not sure what they're like elsewhere.
Oh ok, then it's my misunderstanding. At least that makes more sense, with the rest of your comment. I don't disagree with anything you said then, as descriptions of how things operate and reasons to not NEED a distance meter. Of course you should know the route and can look for signs outside. I know that many locos have these counters in TSW, including ACS64, but they are for short distance measurements with purposes to count off length of train, when passing a point. They are in feet, but could very easily switch to miles without any additional equipment. I suppose it's possible simply due to not needing it, but I just have a hard time believing that a multi million dollar locomotive would avoid something simple, basic and useful. I dunno..
Some of the more recent UK freight locos have a train length counter which can be triggered passing a speed board, so the driver knows when the rear of the train is clear of the restriction and can start to accelerate. Seen this or rather heard in one of Don Coffey’s YT clips.
Just my two cents… being former military, clocks need to be set, measuring devices need to be calibrated, in fleet vehicles , the more gadgets you have the more maintenance you need, and of course invariably when you need that item is tagged as in-op on the unit you are assigned from the pool. Sure clocks can be synced via GPS signal but that adds another layer of complexity and maintenance and if using GPS to sync clocks, why not just use the GPS display . As an ex-navigator, just knowing distance traveled is pretty useless without reference coordinates… on the trackless ocean, speed, direction, and drift are required to get a circle of probability where you might be if you are using dead-reckoning. Once in sight of land, you switch to taking bearings to landmarks to more accurately fix your location and then speed, direction and drift become the most important information for a predictive plot of where you are going to be in the near future… distance traveled is used to check your actual over proposed track. Being on a railroad, you know where the track is laid, so from a navigational point of view all you need is WHERE you are on that track… sure tracking distance from known reference points could be used along with a listing of those reference points ( I.e a map or chart) and that is what the distance markers are for along the tracks and learning the route to associate landmarks with said distance markers thus making distance traveled a nice information to check progress, but a more reliable method would be distance markers and landmarks and route knowledge. Does anyone really use their odometer in their car to navigate? From driveway, go 1.7 miles then turn left, after 2.9 miles turn right —- or —- at the intersection of this road and route 55 turn left, down the road a piece you will see a silo, turn right Just having a bit of fun with the idea, but do not see the need for a trip meter in the cab -
In terms of the clock, my train company issues all Drivers, Conductors and Dispatchers with a radio controlled watch, so that everyone is working to the same time at all times. I think that’s fairly common practice in the UK. You could install a radio controlled clock in every Drivers’ cab I suppose, but it’s much cheaper just to provide watches which you can buy off the shelf, than to manufacture and fit specialist equipment. In terms of an odometer, I don’t think train drivers would make use of such a device to calculate braking points etc. It would mean memorising a number for every station stop and speed restriction on the route, and the way the human memory works that is more difficult than remembering a visual landmark. A Driver could write down all the numbers, but then they’d be spending a high proportion of the time looking at their list of numbers and at the odometer, and little time looking out of the front windscreen, which would be undesirable. However much technology develops, keeping a good lookout for signals, potential obstructions and other hazards on the line ahead remain important.
IRL, drivers use landmarks as braking points etc ("15% brakes at Block Signal A214" or "Start the approach into Tadcaster at the old mill") I recall a story from the UK where drivers used a particular discarded paint can by the tracks as a braking point -- until some public-minded citizen cleared out the rubbish and left them confused!
solicitr, sound like some of the directions I would get when I was working as a home health nurse. "Turn left by that big stump with the white paint on it".
It's 75.6 km from the start of that track. The starting point of a track can be a station or a junction with another track. So for example, on HRR the northern bypass line is it's own "Strecke" (route), with Wattenscheid station at 9.6 km from the starting point. Once you rejoin the main line, you're back to counting in the hundreds, with Essen Hbf being at 129.5 km. The driver has this information displayed on the EBuLa (Elektronischer Buchfahrplan und Verzeichnis der Langsamfahrstellen = electronic book timetable and register of the slow driving sections).
While I understand that it is a big technical challenge for DTG to incorporate a fully-functional, scrolling EBuLa system on German trains, it would not be especially hard for them to do what one enterprising modder already has done: fill that blank screen with a static Buchfahrplan so that the driver/player can find the necessary route information. Or, failing that, simply include one as a .pdf with the route. Yes, consoles can read .pdfs too.
Yea, or you can make your own. I'd done my own route guide, which can be fun, for nerding out. Just spent way too much time making the charts look nice. Additionally which is of interest to the NEC Boston-Providence.. I found a Conrail route guide for New England from 1987, which covers the whole track from Boston to the RI state line. It's almost like a hand drawing and formatted in little booklet form. Note Section 6, starting on page 56. It's a simple format. It's also interesting to note how many of the industrial spurs and associated industrial customers have been removed since then. A good illustration of the drop in heavy industry in that area over last 30 years. The bridges remain though, which could give good reference points. As you all noted, not much reliance on distances here. With CSX, they seem to provide a different format to their engineers in vertical format with marker points, speeds and a schematic rather then map. I've seen some where they also symbolize curve radiuses and speed limits.. I've included the guide I made for LIRR, and a trimmed version of the Conrail one due to size limit. I'm starting to understand your points about distance measurement. Good conversation.
In the uk it’s intentional for there to be no clocks (TMS clocks don’t count). Drivers don’t keep time, schedulers keep time. Drivers drive to what’s infront of them and they’ll arrive exactly when they’re supposed to (at least that’s the theory)
There is a good point to this, it is right that the driver/engineer/loco pilot whatever they're called in your locality is supposed to drive to what they encounter - continuously checking time just induces stress. As you're driving if you're late you might be trying to "make up time" or undertake "spirited running" by running a little over line speed or braking later or other such safety issues. Usually on passenger services the driver will have a time card of some sort for the trip they're running and they check that each time they stop. Paul
One think that I didn't seen mentioned here is that it wouldn't work, and the track milepost would desync with the odometers quick quickly, and you would have to resync them manually basically in every station. Odometer just measures the number of axle rotation, for that to match distance you need to know the exact diameter of the wheel. This diameter changes a little as the wheel is worn. Also any slip in the wheel would manifest as error of measurement. It is not much at first, but in the course of 200 mile journey, it will add up to be significant. Second, the distance measured will not correspond with where you are exatly on a track. Take a 2 track curve, train going the outer track has to travel a longer distance, than the train going the inner. The same is routing in stations... if you go via any other route than straight to station, you're addind distance traveled by the train which isn't distance traveled when going by the milepost. Once again, these will add up through the jorney. The train industry isn't stupind, if odometers would be usefull, they would use them. It is far cheaper than having to maintain milepost every few hundreds meters... but it is not a viable solution.
It may be different at different companies, but at all of those which I have worked for, Drivers absolutely keep time - that is why they’re issued with watches. Keep in mind that different trains have recovery time and pathing allowance built into their schedules at different points, so as a Driver you need to know your booked time at each passing point and station, and aim to hit that point at the correct time. If you ignore the time and just go as fast as signals and line speeds allow, you’re putting your train out of its path, creating unnecessary signal delays for your train and others, and wasting energy/fuel by arriving at stations early. Similarly, when the train is running late, you need to know that, because you are expected to make every effort to recover time - as the working timetable said on the cover for many years “When passenger trains are running late, Drivers must endeavour to make up time, with due regard to speed restrictions and the braking power of the train”.
Station dispatch (in leyman's terms, the people on the platform that blow the whistle and wave the boards about) or the guard (one is present and in control of dispatch, and not just there to collect fares) will handle that. The driver goes when they're told. This appears even on the non-passenger WTTs I have from the 70s and 80s.
For me it's simple If the prototype has distance counters and/or clocks I want them modelled and functional in the sim. If the prototype doesn't have them I don't want them modelled.
The accounts will lose sleep For delays caused by the TOC they have to pay something like 1000 a minute to network rail (could be 100) and if caused by Network rail the same but they pay the TOC. On seconds thought accountants always lose sleep
3 minutes and upwards. However, it’s the primary delay (delay to the train in question) plus the reactionary delay (delay to other trains as a result) which counts - so if your train loses 1 minute, and that starts of chain of delays to other services, you pay for every one of those minutes as well. Every minute of delay has a different value, based on a complex formula taking into account service group, time of day and other things. Operators tend to work out an average for their service groups, and use that as a rule of thumb internally. For my current operator it’s £40. I’ve known a minute of delay to cause 100+ minutes of delay to other services. So, if it were 100 minutes, that 1 minute of delay will cost the TOC around £4,000. Another day you might get lucky - lose a minute, which doesn’t cause any delay to any other service, and nobody owes anyone anything. In that situation, as a Driver, you probably won’t even be asked the cause of the delay. If it cost £4,000, you’ll definitely be asked! (and “it’s because there’s no clock in the cab” isn’t going to cut it!)
Yes we are issued TOCwatches but I’m not DOO so that may be the difference. In terms of passing points, only some are included on a schedule card and it’s only a Driver Advisory System (DAS) tablet - that we don’t use yet - that would advise you to alter your driving style to make up time or to hit junctions at certain times. It’s by no means a requirement to use if it interferes with defensive driving but you do become aware of the time even without in cab clocks because there are large station platform clocks, depot clocks, personal watches and an awareness of distance/timings between stations to know if you’re late anyway. But you’re right in everything you say that it’s important to know that you’re behind time but it shouldn’t be a focus as safety is always the main aim
There is the key, right there. A driver will always drive to the conditions (track, weather, train, signals), their skills, training and limits. The timetable is a secondary thing, always. Paul
I gathered the data points into Excel, made the line chart there, but then brought it into Adobe Illustrator with which I drew over it. There was more graphic options in Illustrator. The schematics, I found online, and cut them for the sections and combined with Acrobat to Pdfs. For the Boston Sprinter NEC route, I didn't do it this way, but used the opportunity to learn QGIS, which is proper mapping tool. Will probably use the profile screen shots next time, and combine them with Photoshop rather than gathering data points. Not sure.
Even back in the old days of timetable-and-train-orders, the watch - The Official Watch - was kept by the conductor, not the engineer. And he wasn't on the locomotive.
THIS IS CONJECTURE, NOT FACT. Sorry I know I'm very late to the party, but what you are describing is done better by modern safety and In-Cab signalling systems like TVM, ACSES/ATC and ETCS. From my understanding you don't want an hybrid system of looking out of the window and into the cab to gather information, either you have a full In-Cab signalling system which allows the driver to basically safely drive the train almost without needing to look out of the window OR force the driver to have to look out of the window for reference. ETCS is actually used in the UK, and this is an incident that happened on that line which can illustrate what happens when a driver is tasked with relying on both In-Cab and outside information: "Shortly before 22:00 on Sunday 19 June 2011, a passenger train from Aberystwyth to Machynlleth ran onto the level crossing at Llanbadarn while the barriers at the crossing were raised, and came to a stop with the front of the train about 31 metres (102 ft) beyond the crossing. There were no road vehicles or pedestrians on the crossing at the time.[12] The immediate cause of the incident was that the train driver did not notice that the indicator close to the crossing was flashing red until it was too late for him to stop the train before it reached the crossing. Factors behind this included the driver's "workload" (his need to observe a screen in the cab at the same time as he should also be observing a lineside indicator), the design of the equipment associated with the operation of the level crossing, and the re-setting of the signalling system on board the train before it could depart from Aberystwyth. An underlying cause of the incident was that the signalling system now in use on the lines from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli did not interface with the automatic level crossings on these routes.[12]" SOURCE That's also why aircraft pilots generally either fly almost only relying on looking outside the windows for navigation and (even if an aircraft has all the instruments) OR by being able to fly only relying on instruments, training indeed involves flying with opaque blinds covering the windows. An odometer used for situational awareness could be helpful in some circumstances, but it could also be a "useful" distraction making the driver miss some important trackside information. Mileposts on german routes are pretty good and can be relied upon, in-game from time to time I've noticed there might be a rogue board here and there but they are rare and easy to spot if you "count" them as you past them, you only need to know the mileposts of the station and you are good.
