1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

What Are Peoples Thoughts On Rivets Attitude?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by chieflongshin, Jun 2, 2021.

  1. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    4,054
    Likes Received:
    4,609
    Perhaps instead of telling customers to not buy it, they could say "It's alright that you think our dlc's are overpriced, but we will do sales so you can get our product at a lower price"
     
    • Like Like x 5
  2. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2020
    Messages:
    203
    Likes Received:
    507
    But why don't you handle it like a speed selector? When you drive a BR 143/ 112 for example, would you act the same like in the video? I mean, set the speed selector to 30 kph, when the 143 reaches 30, reduce the selected speed to 10 kph (because you want the 143 to stop accellerate), some seconds later raise sel. speed to 40 kph, just to reduce sel. speed to 15, as it reaches 30 kph, and then again some seconds later, raise the sel. speed back up to 35, all these speed changes in between 2 and a half minutes? I haven't tried this in a 143 yet, but I think the 143 would behave very weird to this handling...
     
  3. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    I do not think any of this has anything to do with the bug we are talking about. In any case, when going up (Chur to Arosa) I just do what you say, set the speed I want in the wheel and the train pretty much sticks to it (loco applies power when under the selected speed, and gravity stops the train when it is going faster). When going down I can't do that because the control wheel is not like AFB. It does not apply brakes. Many times you are at 0% gradient, then suddenly you go to 6%. Since I do not have a real wheel, and it takes time to move the wheel using the keyboard (ie: if I am at 3.5 I need to go to 3.0, then 2.5, then 2.0, 1.5, 1.0, 0.5 and OFF before I can start braking) I usually set the control wheel lower than strictly needed so I can start braking faster if I need to. With the real train wheel you can just go from 3.5 to 0 with a single hand movement and it takes 0.5 seconds to do it, instead of 0.5 secs per notch as it happens with a keyboard.

    In the video I set to wheel to really high speeds (40, even 60+) a few times just to check if it would do something since the loco was not applying power when it should have been. I do not usually do that in a normal run.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  4. Iskra

    Iskra Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    205
    I think Rivet have tried really hard to listen and engage with the community. They have done more in terms of surveys etc than anyone else ever has.

    Their routes have faced issues apparently (I've not bought any as they haven't interested me until now- Cornwall will be the first that I buy), and some of those issues have created feedback that has been negative. There's a point where feedback is no longer constructive and just becomes abuse, and it must get tiring to deal with a load of parrots saying the same thing, trying to outdo each other in who can be most scathing, so I sympathise with them. I think the community are welcome to share negative feedback, but politely and responsibly or we risk driving the devs away from the community, which will reduce its value.

    So, I hope three things can happen;

    a) Rivet can learn from their mistakes
    b) Rivet continue to engage with the community.
    c) People can give feedback politely and responsibly.

    :)
     
    • Like Like x 17
  5. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2019
    Messages:
    589
    Likes Received:
    802
    I couldn't say it better. Very nice article from ISKRA.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2018
    Messages:
    85
    Likes Received:
    290
    Little conflicted on this issue, having developed similar content before for different audiences, I can understand if Rivet was feeling either frustrated or content with current commentary on their routes. Currently I have had two purchase experiences from them (1 refunded, and 1 severely dissapointed with.) I currently see the following issues :

    - A complete mis-match on feedback on loco physics. Neither the 204 or the 483 have ever felt right, but rather arcadey sprightly machines

    - Lacklustre scenery, only exaggerated by the fact that other TSW routes and Unreal titles are perfectly capable at replicating "said" scenery

    - Downgraded comparisons to the TS2020 counterparts of their DLC. IOW is a shorter route with more visual artefacts, less scenarios, less trains and slightly inaccurate track geometry. Arosaline is a near miss on the level of visual satisfaction

    I'm sure we could go on and people will come up with similar isssues. But I just don't get an urge to own their content. It doesn't offer up some level of quality or compelling atmosphere, which seems reflected in their "well it works" attitude to things. It's a stance they can take, but I just simply can't make the effort to support them going forwards. I can't keep going through a cycle of "missed oppurtunities"... too painful.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
    • Like Like x 10
  7. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2020
    Messages:
    1,098
    Likes Received:
    1,314
    https://forums.rivet-games.com/foru...g-in-both-scenario-planner-and-timetable-mode
    Classic moderator response…
     
  8. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2020
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    I got a response from Jasper @ Rivet Inkar which I've not tried yet, so you need to set the after releasing the brake you need to set the power wheel to Off before either further use of dynamics or powering. This doesn't make much sense and does not reflect what the real Rhb manual says to do but I'm going to try it tonight.

    Hi Paul,


    Thanks for reaching out to us. We’re really sorry that you’re having issues with our products.


    I forwarded your email to our developers, which will have a look at it. Just a few general tips: Please always make sure to set the brake to “Release” before applying power. If you apply brake power with the driving wheel in any driving position, you’ll need to set the driving wheel to 0/Off before applying power again.


    Hope this helps! Please let me know if you have further questions!


    Best regards,

    Jasper Holzapfel
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  9. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2020
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    Well. I gave it a try, and have produced a video that demonstrates the bug. Please watch the video from Inkar and mine (link below) before commenting. This is abnormal behaviour. I've written back to Jasper with the further information after following his instructions as below. Note Inkar that this is still playable, just don't use the vacuum brakes until you actually need to stop in a station. You should not need them generally except in the scenarios - which interestingly seem to work ok.

    Thanks very much for the response Jasper. The advice works when travelling uphill or when on flat ground, however, when you are travelling down hill and you release with the wheel off you cannot accelerate. Gravity is accelerating the train, not the traction motors. Even if you turn the power wheel to full nothing happens. Please watch this video where I have set out to demonstrate the bug. It would be wonderful to get this fixed in an upcoming update.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
  10. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    Some locomotives disable power as soon as you use any brake and prevent you from applying power again until you set the power to 0/Off. Most german locomotives (if not all) do this. At least, all the ones I have seen in TSW do. This is why Jasper gave you that "general tip".

    The GE 4/4 II featured in Arosalinie seems to cut the power when you apply vacuum brakes, but it automatically starts accelerating again as soon as you release the brakes without needing to set the power to 0 first (it takes maybe 3-4 secs, and I think this will probably match what the real loco does).

    I understand Jasper wanted to make sure we were not reporting normal behavior as a bug, but it is not the case this time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  11. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2019
    Messages:
    1,484
    Likes Received:
    2,256
    Yep - exactly. From a neuro-linguistic marketing perspective, the phrase "Don't Buy It" does actually internally include the phrase "Buy It", however, the likely strong association with the negative feelings that most people will experience when they hear the phrase "Don't Buy It" will overwhelm the subliminal "Buy It" message part, and Jasper, Sam, or anyone else selling a product doesn't need to go on a Derren Brown training course to realise that. At least, I would hope not.

    Put another way, the phrase "Don't Buy It" should be really way down the list of options that someone should use if they are trying to sell you something - like, very close to the bottom of a very very long list with millions of other options on it. I can only think of one or two circumstance when it is appropriate (or morally correct/expedient) to do so, and they are:

    - adaptive marketing/sales approach:
    when a customer tells you that they don't like being told to buy things, but confesses that when they are told not to buy something, that they then have a compulsion to then buy the product that they are being advised not to buy;

    - marketing/sales with a moral compass (sort of):
    when a customer tells you that they probably should not buy the product, because if they buy the product then they will not be able to afford to pay for their mother's cancer treatment, and the mother in question would consequently die, and would therefore not be able to complete her work negotiating a peace treaty between two warring nations, so her early death would result in the avoidable death of another 17 million people (although arguably, this is just another adaptive sales approach, because if the other 17 million people die then the salesperson would lose the opportunity to sell them something.... so the expediency of this option depends on whether the salesperson has to meet targets that are short-term or long-term).

    In short, my advice to Sam and Jasper is simply........:

    Don't say "Don't Buy It"
     
    • Like Like x 3
  12. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    Just watched your video. In your first test, the train should be able to accelerate as soon as you closed the doors and released the vacuum brakes without needing to wait 10 seconds because the 10 seconds limitation starts counting from the moment your control wheel was set to OFF (just after you stopped at the station). I see you waited an extra 10 secs, and the loco applied power as soon as moved the wheel. The loco worked as expected in this first test (1:56 in the video). Just wanted to make sure you know exactly what is supposed to happen.

    After that you make a second test. You do not use the dynamic brakes (aka "use the control wheel to brake") at all and stop the train using vacuum brakes only (aka "brake using the brake handle"). In this case, the train should be able to start moving immediately without waiting 10 seconds. It would be understandable if it took 3-4 secs because of the protection that cuts power when any brake is applied, but not the 10 seconds that come from using the dynamic brake. Again, the train did what it was expected to do, but it would have been better if you did not give it the extra 10 seconds as it can hide other malfunctions.

    In your third test you waited 10 seconds again ( that should not be needed because you did not use the dynamic brakes), but the train failed to accelerate anyway. This is 100% a bug.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  13. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2020
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    Oh yes its definitely a bug. Interestingly I don't think its anything to do with the brakes at all. I think its a problem caused by the train being under forward movement when power is applied and the train did not cause the moment. I deliberately waited the 10 seconds in the other circumstances because this is prototypical. This is what the real life Rhb drivers manual says to do. Google
    "Schweizerische Fahrdienstvorschriften FDV" if you want to find it, then upload to Google Translate if you don't read German. Be ware its about 600 pages. Be careful of the site too - there's a few fakes out there that are not the manual.

    Paul
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2020
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    Jasper has replied to my email with an explanation that to me makes sense. Perhaps this isn't a bug after all... This certainly explains why it only happens going down hill.

    From Jasper:
    The problem you’re facing has to do with the way the train takes power. As you saw, when starting from a standstill, the train will accelerate properly to the speed you choose. But when applying power while you’re already moving, it ramps up the power slowly to “grab” the train at it’s current speed and then get accelerate it. The problem you’re facing there is that the train is accelerating faster than the power ramps up.
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  15. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2020
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    To test Jasper's theory, I took the train over to Sandpatch... well yes thats kinda funny by itself but anyway, it seems to reflect what Jasper was saying... mostly. You be the judge. The idea was to run it on a gentler down gradient where it would not accelerate so fast. For the test its running Off The Rails (literally, it floats between them) in a scenario. The spot is just after the tunnel where the down gradient starts. We're on a 1.7 gradient when I start the test. On 1.7 it still does what it does on Arosa. Later I try it on 1.3 where it behaves the way Jasper says. Bug? Perhaps not but its still weird :).



    Paul
     
  16. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2019
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    482
    I wouldn't trust a single word coming from Rivet after the excuses they made up with the brakes.
    Moreover, if it really is as he says, they why is the amperometer showing 0 until the very last second? If the power is ramping up slowly, shouldn't the amperometer reflect that?

    They have to fix this and the timetable. It has been a while already.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  17. Ben_Broomfield

    Ben_Broomfield Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2018
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    226
    Personally after Arosa & IoW, I’ve lost a bit of respect for the products they’ve put out.

    They do great in areas and completely contrast in others, however I do hope they bring my respect back for the Cornwall route, given I work for GWR in the west and am looking forward to it.

    I think they need a version of Sam in their team to help, bring light issues and hopefully resolve them ;)
     
    • Like Like x 5
  18. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    1,114
    Nice find. I will take a look at the manual later.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  19. GuitarMan

    GuitarMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2020
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    507
    I’ve had the behaviour when running in the flat. Had the dynamic on, missed that I was running on flat, moved to take power taken 20-30 seconds plus before amps rise.

    in fact, I’ve usually found I’m back to a descent before it starts taking power, so i really don’t buy that answer from Jasper.

    I don’t necessarily blame Jasper as he may be delivering the message from someone else, but I’m pretty certain there is a bug there…
     
    • Like Like x 4
  20. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2020
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    It certainly feels that way.

    Paul
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page