What's Your Opinion On The Tvl Preservation Update?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by dosto762, Mar 31, 2022.

  1. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    This is why I wondered whether SoS might be playable as a base game, so steam fans don't have to buy SKA, BKL and SPG if they aren't interested. Perhaps a new base version of TSW2 will be released in the summer and it will include the Liverpool-Crewe route.
     
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  2. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I'm not against steam but do think the majority of players are losing out on other DLC cause the the whole team is working on SOS. I would have like DTG to say give steam the same amount of importance as say they did with the pres. routes and not a huge priority they are doing now.

    Disappointed to hear about the mistakes in TVL, I doubt they will ever be addressed now unless by a modder? But for me DTG should pick a small team from the forum who have lots of experience with the game and has pointed out flaws and get them to beta test certain routes. Surely they need to know the flaws in the game so they could be addressed before release rather than either missing them entirely or covering them up.

    Perhaps then they will listen and do something about it cause the way it is now is that they constantly just ignore the big flaws that are pointed out.
     
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  3. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    Re the update - I can't comment too much on how much has changed as I only picked the route up in the last sale and didn't have time to really explore it before this update. I did notice the destination board scroller now seems to have lost its relevant destinations, only having ones from NTP now.

    As for the complaints about QA - outsourcing is just how it's done now, unfortunately. Almost no biggish game you've played in the past 20 years will have been QA'd in house, it just isn't practical for most studios. It's not that nobody who likes rail sims ever looks at it - the Devs are probably into them, after all. It's that creating a volunteer team of beta testers would be like herding cats. They'd need to hire a full time liaison, the volunteers would need training and formal registration, and Dovetail would have zero control over the testing process, leading to dubious results. I'm afraid the post release feedback model is probably the only game in town now.
     
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  4. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    At least they were smart enough to not entirly delete it, thats what i checked first. You never know with dtg.

    To sos, i see things a little different. Im highly awaiting this. Getting a solid route with a buch of rolling stock. Heritage would just be too much demo for this big initial feature.

    Considering SOS might be the only uk route in development now (what i doubt), taranther ramp was in the begin of the year and harlem release was now, they need up to 8 months for a route.

    But i have absolutly an understanding that people here think sos is taking time from other projects.

    Thats what happens if a company turns their roadmap into a "no info" screen. Customers are confused and have no idea whats going on, also no new announcements etc..
    The opinions about this new format might variey, but i lost completly interest in roadmap streams and to be honest over the last month they were talking basicly the same over and over.
     
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  5. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Considering the current 55% discount on a very new route like Dresden-Chemnitz, I wouldn't be surprised if we'd see such a new TSW2 bundle indeed. SoS could even be exclusively available through such a bundle. DTG has done it before for TS.
     
  6. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I was going to re-install TSW just for the TVL update as it is one of my favourite routes but I may not bother now.

    I will wait till SOS comes out.

    Incidentally steam has been pretty popular in TS1 and I am sure it will be in TSW, it should look spectacular. For me a train sim should represent all interests from steam, through the modernisation plan and into BR days through to the current period. Steam is something missing, not sure why there is so much anger that some aren't getting what they want, where us steam fans have had to wait five years. I would like everyone to get what they want and I am sure after SOS comes out there will be a procession of modern routes to follow, then those fans of modern railways will suddenly forget their angst.
     
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  7. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    To the TVL update, so far i like those MS Dos PIS Screens ;), they changed to the 2 car class 101 unit, but the destinations show correct in my version.
     
  8. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    EA fly people in every year to test FIFA, they do beta testing around the globe and at Football Ground special events, I know DTG cannot stretch to EA's structure but they could do it imo probably cheaper than outsourcing it. They only need a few members from each region or even do it in just one region if they wished. Players will be more than happy to beta test the game and will get more relevant information about the game than a bunch of strangers who know very little about the game.

    Mind you DTG like their outsourcing especially in India!
     
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  9. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying you want Dovetail to be more like EA?
     
  10. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    er, no. I was saying if such companies like EA can do it who are not liked very much why can't DTG do it on a much smaller scale.
     
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  11. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    No evidence to suggest it would be cheaper though - they'd still need to do the outsourced bug testing, for one, and the issues of administrating volunteers as well as the additional time between development and release would add costs, in fact. The EA Closed Beta program is as much about retaining players for the next iteration of FIFA or Madden as it is actual testing, and the in-person events are pure marketing. Bear in mind, too, that FIFA has a much wider appeal and players tend not to be as fussy about things like exact positioning of floodlights at Old Trafford or unrealistic advertising boards. Is there much worth in holding up release for another few weeks to receive hypercritical feedback on things many players wouldn't even notice? I'm not convinced.
     
  12. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Which is why I said 'on a smaller scale'. All they would have to do is invite what, half a dozen, good TSW2 players lock 'em in a room and tell them to play the game and report mistakes. It would be far more worthwhile than sending out to India played by players that have no interest in the game.

    I don't think it would hold the game up, in fact I think it would speed it up. Instead of sending the build to India and waiting for it to comeback they could do it all in house at Chatham. And for me it would save money. For a start these 'testers' are volunteers so only their expenses need to be paid? Then their is the advantage of bugs being picked up first time and avoid any costly bugged releases. I know no system is 100% but I'd rather the game be tested by people who loved the game than sending it out to India. Or perhaps you wouldn't?

    As for EA yes they are unliked, they have been voted the worst company in the US for a while and yes they know how to do marketing. That is not to say DTG could look at their more positive practices, does it? If it was done properly it could be winner imo for DTG cause what they have now isn't brilliant.
     
  13. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    As you've mentioned India twice now I assume you have some insight into Dovetail business practices I don't, so I won't comment on those sort of specifics. However, QA bug testing is not the same thing as beta testing by fans. As I said in the above post, you cannot remove the QA, and almost all modern QA stuff is done third party. So, you will inevitably and unavoidably be adding a step, which will need administrating, which will cost money. The FIFA stuff you mention isn't about bugs - it's quality of life stuff. Bug testing is still needed, and at EA is done with a mixture of in-house engineers leading outsourced testers.

    To answer your question in one word - would I rather bug testing is done by professionals or by volunteers from these boards? The former, every single time, regardless of what country it takes place in. It means I pay as little as I do for new DLC, none of which have come close to having what I'd consider a game-breaking, can't do anything with the product level of bug. Take this thread as an example - what genuine issues have been identified above that should have prevented the release from going ahead? The tracks are the wrong colour? One person has issues with a red light in one scenario? These are annoyances, unfortunately, not proof that Dovetail are a terrible company who turn everything they touch to dirt. This is exactly why getting enthusiasts in can hinder as much as it helps - the truth is, the most hardcore simmers have incredibly high expectations, failure of which to meet causes them intense and understandable irritation. For many users though, they will barely notice.

    All of which is to say that the model of ironing out everything that breaks the game then correcting things noticed after release is almost certainly here to stay. To hope for otherwise is to prepare for a significant increase in costs. There are positives and negatives to that, but the positives mostly revolve around price.
     
  14. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Here you appear to be advocating locking community members in a room in Kent and telling them what to do without paying them instead of paying for a professional QA resource. It’ll be fine with anti-slavery laws because they volunteered and it will be better because they are not in India. I think this a new forum low. Well done.
     
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  15. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Holy smoke! Adam's guys implemented something I have been asking for for a while- integrated departure screens! Since this was apparently the way things were at Darlington in the late 80s, they figured out how to do it!

    Now if this can be extended to all the other routes where they are either blank (Brighton, Paddington) or helpfully say "Read the timetable" (München)
     
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  16. Yoinkermcskoinker

    Yoinkermcskoinker Well-Known Member

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    Just adding my 2 cents, i honestly couldn't care less if i have to wait a long time for the next UK route, if spirit of steam has enough variety in the stock (which it definitely already has) and short enough services. And if the WSR class 47 is layered in then this will be one of the best DLCs to come out for this sim imo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2022
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  17. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Get TSW tested by kidnapped victims.

    Now that's certainly an interesting idea, by interesting I mean insane.

    It could work I guess until little Johnny's mum reports him missing and the police trace him to a darkened cellar beneath DTG ivorytowers chained to a PS4 18 hours a day.
     
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  18. zzw1983

    zzw1983 Well-Known Member

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    Before:
    [​IMG]
    After:
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. jamesthepershing

    jamesthepershing Active Member

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    It can't be layered as 47s didn't exist in 1958 and the 47 in WSR is a refurbished 47/7 with NRN aerials and modern equipment.
     
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  20. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    I'll hold you to that. Lets have a friendly bet that the next UK route after SOS won't be modern. DTG generally do the same eras back to back, NTP and TVL for example.
     
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  21. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. The only diesels you could conceivably layer in to SOS are:
    Class 08 (1953 onwards).
    Class 20 (1957).
    Class 24 (1958).
    Class 26 (1958).
    Class 31 (1957).
    Class 40 (1958)

    DMU Wise:
    Class 101 (1956), lord help us.
    Class 103 (1957).
    Class 104 (1957).
    Class 105 (1956).
    Class 108 (1958).
    Class 119 (1958).
    Class 120 (1958).
    Class 125 (1958).

    Not all of these would have been seen in the Liverpool or Crewe area "out the box" and of the types that exist in TSW, they would have to be de-modernised to look at home.
     
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  22. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well it is only a theory lol but we will see :)
     
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  23. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if DMU's would have been used on the route at all? The class 304's were used on the Crewe to Liverpool service from 1962. There is a good chance the steam would have given way to electric.

    However, I think the class 108 would be the obvious choice from that list, as far as I can see Allerton depot pretty much only had class 108's and also some 115's until it closed in the 1980's. Not sure if some Derby Lightweights went there.
     
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  24. jamesthepershing

    jamesthepershing Active Member

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    Also, many of the trains like the 08s and 20s had older modifications like no dual braking and so on
     
  25. Yoinkermcskoinker

    Yoinkermcskoinker Well-Known Member

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    I honestly dont mind, and i was saying that because JD mentioned the WSR 47 being layered in on a stream. And it's also only one of 2 locos that come in BR Green along with the 33
     
  26. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    We are still waiting for someone to buy the SIAM Lime Street 1958 and take a peak!
    Unfortunately these games were always expensive and £30 is a bit steep for a bit of light research!
     
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  27. jamesthepershing

    jamesthepershing Active Member

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    It would be so immersion braking seeing a 47 with a high intensity headlamp and NRN aerials passing by.
     
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  28. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes that is true, seeing any class 47 in 1958 would be immersion breaking, I wouldn't imagine they will do that though.

    It would mean having to uninstall the WSR route so it didn't appear. I hope DTG manage to implement selected layers so you don't have to put up with unrealistic layers without having to uninstall other routes as happens with WCL just because some demand layes which are unauthentic.
     
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  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I did try one of those, not sure if it was a Sian one. I think it was based in Shrewsbury in the 1960's but not being able to see the actual trains didn't really appeal to me. I know in modern signal centres that often is the case.

    I would love a signal box simulator combined with something like TS1 or TSW. I hope the IHH one comes to fruition at some point, it seems to get close then goes quiet again.
     
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  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I think we discussed this over and over some time ago and concluded that there is no current loco in TSW that would be accurate for the WCML in 1958. The 40 was in service, but only barely and only in East Anglia, and not blue; the 101 didn't operate in the area then; the 08 was already fairly common but not in blue and without dual-braking.

    The closest "fake" would be the WSR 09, but in reality of course the 09 didn't exist in 1958.
     
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  31. Yoinkermcskoinker

    Yoinkermcskoinker Well-Known Member

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    I get that, but thats not what i mean. What im saying is it could just be that it doesnt appear in the timetable if you are not driving with it, so if your using a steam loco then you wont see it anywhere, but if you choose the class 47 then that will be the only time you see it
     
  32. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    In theory, the "brand new" Class 20's could be layered in on a Railtour from the Nottingham area, coming off the Uttoxeter line at Crewe South, maybe even a Grand National Race Special, disappearing at Edge Hill towards the Southport lines.

    But we are probably getting OT here for TVL and the last few posts probably need abstracting to a relevant SOS thread!
     
  33. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    But not in Railfreight grey, and layers don't get reskinned.
     
  34. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Yes so it would have to be added as part of a reworked and reliveried, "Spirit Of Early Diesel" DLC!
     
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  35. PeteW

    PeteW Member

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    I realise it is probably outwith the Pres Crew's remit, but I was really hoping to see some AI services on the ECML. I think when this DLC is set, that would be HSTs at least. Not sure what other locos were used at that time on ECML. I could only dream of a Class 55 Deltic. But I suspect it had been phased out by then. But I'm no expert at these things.
     
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  36. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    It appears you are twisting my words and that is not what I meant. Anti-Slavery laws? quite the drama queen no and completely wrong? I said paying their expenses and meant being watered and fed for the day and in return would test the game. What is wrong with that FFS? I'll do it (but there are far better players than me) and bet many would as well. They will be helping DTG to get better testing and the players will get to try new unreleased stuff.

    Obviously this would not replace QA but it could make it more efficient, they could have these 'little teams' in each region and I bet players would jump at the chance of a day or two out. But please enlighten me, what is the point in out sourcing the QA if the game comes back still with bugs? You could still use outsourcing for simple things I suppose but they will not pick up things like experienced players will.

    And from yesterdays stream it looks like Matt is going with something similar as he mentioned 'open-betas' so nobody getting 'locked in a room' But they won't be payed, OH no! Slaves to the system? And I would suggest the feedback from these 'open-betas' will prove themselves worthwhile to the player base.
     
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  37. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, since most Diesels left the Factory with pre tops codes "D....", a class 20 would be a English Electric Type 1 locomotive, which can also considered as "new" loco in a dlc, because the major changes to vacuum only etc.
     
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  38. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    8 hours of work x 5/6 enthusiasts would not help anything much, again. Routes by committee will not satisfy anyone, again. And I thought this was going to work out cheaper? Now we at least admit it will be an additional step! You'd be very surprised at what people whose job is finding bugs will find as opposed to grabbing the people off these forums who spend most of their posts claiming DTG ate their hamster. Let the pros do it, game testing is a horrible job that nobody with experience of the field would suggest amateurs could or would want to do.

    EDIT: just for the record I think it was pretty clear that "lock em in a room" was a turn of phrase and not a literal recommendation lol
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
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  39. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Not just game testing, my understand is that a lot of Windows 10's issues were because Microsoft gutted their professional QA team in favor of the insider program. They ended up finding out the hard way that relying completely on normal users for bug testing was a AWFUL idea.
     
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  40. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Let the Pro's do it? They are doing it now and look at the mess DTG have put themselves in. Using enthusiasts to beta test would pay for itself to me it is a no brainer and DTG agree as they are developing the 'open beta-test'. These so called 'professionals' you talk about are missing things that people who play the game pick up, do you read these forums at all?

    The advantage of outsourcing QA is that it is cheap but the downside is that they miss the more technical things, Red Lights etc. I'm not saying QA hasn't got a place, it has but specific basic elements of the game and you would use the enthusiasts to test the nitty-gritty of the game.

    You think game testing is a horrible job? Compared to what FFS? For some people it is a first step into the games industry. And with DTG opening up 'beta-testing' it will save money in the long run.


    And yet Microsoft stuck with the 'Insider program' for Windows 11 and on the whole Windows 11 has been well received as was Windows 10.
     
  41. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    5 minutes reading the forums would be enough to convince me it's a bad idea, really!
     
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  42. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Has it occurred to you the issue might not be the testers failing to find bugs, but instead DTG failing to act on the reports from testers? More reports aren't going to fix the issue if it's on DTG's end, which with how blatant many bugs in TSW are I can assure is almost certainly the case.
    I don't know what alternative universe you're coming from, most of the 10 & 11 reactions I've seen are at best those of apathy. I've yet to see anyone that was ever that excited to upgrade to 10 or 11 out in the wild, especially the latter. On the other hand I've seen plenty of people get real angry because of bad and mandatory Windows Updates. The issues being so bad that one of Windows 11's big features is that it allows you to delay updates for a lot longer than 10 did.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
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  43. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    So you blame DTG, interesting. More reports will not do squat you're right but better quality ones will and if DTG do not act on those then they will have deep problems .

    Apathy? Do what? Windows 10 was regarded as a good OS, certainly not a bad one. From the windows video's I watched Windows 11 is doing OK, is it perfect? Show me an OS that is and it hasn't been out that long. Take a look at the Windows 11 thread on here, not all bad. From what I gather you can get some gains from it if you have a decent PC. I'm using it and while I wouldn't say it is the best since sliced bread it is perfectly OK. My PC boots faster and games seem more stable, even a couple of frames boost. Not amazing but better than a kick in the teeth seeing how it didn't cost anything.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022
  44. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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  45. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The main issue ongoing with TVL is the number of scenarios and runs which bug out (with and without saving) making it impossible to finish Journey Mode either on the original content or route DLC. This should have been addressed by the Pres Crew but presumably now never get looked at again.
     
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  46. chacal#2181

    chacal#2181 Well-Known Member

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    I really hope we will se someday more old era diesels routes... Preservation is nice but we need more !
    With DTG being able to put Diesels Legends on GWE, i have no doubt they will put something équivalent on SOS. But i would like a proper 60s 70s UK new route. There is so much to explore !
     
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  47. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't agree more. We have a host of classic diesels (of which the Class 45 probably the best) but nowhere to really unleash them. Part of the Midland Main Line in the 70's would be a good stamping ground, as would a section of Bristol to Derby.
     
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  48. bartolomaeusz

    bartolomaeusz Active Member

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    I've played TVL once since the update, didn't notice that much that is different - I am a RailDriver user so I like the 101 gear-shift being one of the levers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
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  49. chacal#2181

    chacal#2181 Well-Known Member

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    TVL get update again, reenabling 3 car formations for the 101 and awards plus minor bugs, however the departures TV boards are still broken :(
    Really dont understand how preservation team hasnt see it.
     
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  50. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2021
    Messages:
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    203
    "Restored medal awards for the Class 37 and Class31 that vanished after the previous update."

    ... and to keep it even, all the medal awards that I got since last week's update vanished now in turn: :o:o:o

    upload_2022-4-11_19-15-25.jpeg

    But I really like the track rendering, especially with snow on the ground. If you keep on issuing features like this, you can turn medals on and off every week as you like, I don't mind.
     
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