Who Think That Dtg Should Start Creating Longer Realistic Route, This Year?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix, Jan 30, 2022.

  1. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    And then lastly the Stamford Line- New Haven Line:D
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2022
  2. mrchuck

    mrchuck Well-Known Member

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    grand central station to Poughkeepsie will be the next route for TSW 2 after the Harlem line?
     
  3. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    That's what i am hoping for :D:cool:, Because we need more USA Passenger Train
     
  4. mrchuck

    mrchuck Well-Known Member

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    oh awesome I hope it’s grand central station to Poughkeepsie as well maybe it’ll be announced sometime soon on the roadmap in the future.
     
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  5. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    One word: Steam
     
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  6. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    If they are doing the Hudson line then they've got to include Penn station so we can have Amtrak Empire Service runs between Penn & Poughkeepsie. Although personally Id settle for Grand Central/Penn to Croton which is the end of the electrified line as far as I am aware and would still be a 45 minute express Amtrak run or around 60 minutes for MTA services. Poughkeepsie would add another 45minutes on to service runs, and only 3 peak MTA services an hour (2 off peak) go beyond Croton anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2022
  7. SonicScott91

    SonicScott91 Well-Known Member

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    I’m not opposed to a 100+ mile route but it depends on what gameplay a potential route involves. If it gave us ICE/IC runs that have several station stops such as Hamburg-Hanover or a good long representation of the ECML/WCML then count me in!

    One high up on my personal route wish list is a TSW WCML Over Shap in the 80’s with the BR Class 370 APT-P & BR Class 86. Both fast runners, they’d benefit from a longer route.

    What I don’t think a 100 mile route should be is a mostly 25mph US freight route… Sand Patch is around half that in length but due to the speed limits, it takes long enough to complete a service on that route, as fun as it is.

    I think the range of 100 - 120 miles should be the highest a TSW route should ever go and only where it makes sense to do so. That’s all assuming DTG even plan to make a 100 mile route.
     
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  8. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Long mainline freight routes in the US typically run at 70. The exceptions are curvy mountain routes like Sand Patch or the former Clinchfield line. The whole reason for building steam engines like the Big Boy was to haul heavy freight at 70-80.*

    Besides, that would be the only sort of route you could have a decent Amtrak run on.

    *It's a popular misconception that the BB was built for the Sierra and Rockies grades; that was what the Challengers were for. BBs were built to blast across the prairie.
     
  9. 59321747

    59321747 Well-Known Member

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    For DTG, time is money, and making a 40-mile route by default can cost £24. Why does a route over 80 miles cost £24?
     
  10. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Without gameplay a long route is a boring route.
    Better to watch a cab view video on youtube.
    It would be more authentic.
     
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  11. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    The game could really use a few decent-length intercity routes. I guess those are hard to make since they need to be detailled, as well as lengthy. I hope DTG can find ways to speed up the route-making process, without decreasing the quality.
     
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  12. rpb1966

    rpb1966 Active Member

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    I think you have to take into consideration, file sizes, length of time to build a longer route, the resources to build longer routes, how playable they are before the AWS alarm wakes us up. I think London to Brighton is long enough.
     
  13. apina322oi

    apina322oi Member

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    I would like to see a route that takes more than ~30 minutes to drive with the ICE.

    Also it would be nice to see routes that are long in total track length but consist of multiple diverging branches. Something like a big commuter network. So driving one line would not take that long but you could drive many different lines.
     
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  14. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Must admit last night, for the first time in a few days since buying R8 V3 I jumped back into TSW2 to finish a Sandpatch switching job. That endless desert, especially trundling uphill on straight track at < 30 MPH must have got to me. So while yes I’m still in favour of longer routes, 1. They need to be interesting operationally or scenically, and 2. Need something structured to do.
     
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  15. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Because people would moan if they put the price up according to route length. There's plenty of people who say "I'd happily pay £50 for a 100-mile route" - you wouldn't (just like people who say "stay clear of this route it's awful" and then go buy it themselves).

    But then again people pay £30 for a single train in TS1 so...
     
  16. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I'd prefer to see more branchlines included with routes rather than sheer length. I prefer network style routes to long A to B routes. However, I am perfectly happy to see longer mainline sections, though that mostly depends on the save function being improved.
     
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  17. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    The sad thing about this thread is that while some people are taking it as a joke others are deadly serious. :D
     
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  18. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    The point about Sand Patch is not the speed limits, they are pretty fast on the straight sections. The grade and curvature are what slow you down, especially going east bound towards the summit. That's the challenge of the route. Same with CRR pretty much, although the loco physics will screw you up there. Sherman Hill is quite fast. Not entirely sure why Cane Creek has to be so slow on the straight and flat, unless it's the cargo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2022
  19. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I imagine CC speeds are due to track quality and the lack of work done on the line due to the low levels of traffic on the line, easier and cheaper just to lower the speed limits then pay to upgrade/maintain the line at higher speeds
     
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  20. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    If somebody doesnt care about medals, there is a hybrid solution for long runs even now.

    Every passenger service can be taken over on any station this service stops.

    A player has just 20mins time, so he just drives to the 4. Stop, remembers the station and time.
    Other day he can always load 5 mins pre to that time on foot and take over the train.

    When i had to split runs i always did it this way instead of using a broken savegame causing signalling issues.

    Works fine with no annoyance.
     
  21. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I remember DTG said a few times on stream that making longer routes are no problem, they are auto generated in a large part of it but they did add it has to be interesting which seems a little vague to me.

    I would say Bristol - London to be interesting. There has to be a balance between high speed and stops otherwise there wouldn't be much to do. Mind you if they ever could add a career mode then it could be a series of shorter routes, nice to dream eh?
     
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  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    A career mode would be nice to be honest :)

    I just wanna point out that full line routes don't have to be 100+ miles long as some might think. Let's take the Harlem line as an example. The full electrified part of the line is 53 miles with 30 stations and terminates at Southeast. Same number of stations in London Commuter. But instead players will not be getting a complete experience since the line ends in a place for the less frequent local stoppers terminate. This caused backlash unsurprisingly with some feeling that they would get a half baked experience which frankly will be the case.

    Now yes DTG had said scenery was one factor into why the route is short but then I wonder why choose this route then if they couldn't achieve the full potential of the electrified section of the line considering that in terms of length, it isn't long considering dtg have produced passenger routes for tsw2 that are around 50-59 miles long. Choosing a route that will offer a similar driving experience as Long Island Railroad. While yes The M3, M3A , M7 and M7A are technically different, the only differences between the m7 and m7a is their third rail compatibility (how they collect power from the third rail) the seating position, the M7A having a fire alarm style lights that go off when the doors are closing, the seating position, the LIRR M7 having illuminated number boards (which isn't simulated on the LIRR M7 in tsw2 but is for the LIRR M3) and the M7A not having that, Cab Signaling differences and different HVAC systems. Other than that, they sound the same and the riding experience is effectively the same. M3 and M3A differences are just the third rail compatibility, different cab signaling display and different seating arrangement. DTG is giving players a similar experience effectively only this time it's on a line that goes to/from Westchester County via the New York City Borough of The Bronx to/from Midtown Manhattan

    The point im trying to make though is that complete full line routes don't need to be hundreds of miles long. Whlie yes there are lines that are that long, there are also lines that are much much shorter and yet DTG can't even provide a full experience for a shorter line. This is why the backlash came with the Harlem line when it was announced. This is why some people ask for route extenisons and mergers. It's because people enjoy driving the train they are using and once they get to the end of the line where the train doesn't terminate and actually goes further, there are some that wish they can go further. I have that feeling as well.

    This is why I hope DTG can make more complete routes and not half baked routes that end at a place where the main line doesn't terminate in real life. Now I believe DTG is far away from making 100+ routes but not all lines in the world are that long and there can be complete lines that are around 50-60 miles.
     
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  23. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    That can open NJCL 104 mi Penn Station to Bay Head Europe ÖBB Wien Hbf to Linz Hbf Westbahn phase 2 Westbahn Salzburg Hbf Linz. Including Hump Yards Linz Salzburg Gnigl and Wien Kledering.
    Germany RRO RSN HRR via the Bochum-Hagen/Dortmund Line.
     
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    That is the frustrating thing about TSW routes some of them just don't seem complete.

    Most of the passenger services on TVL start at Bishop Auckland, they do now and did back in 1989. It would have been a nice addition to include the Bishop Auckland branch, it includes some of the earliest railway in existence and is not a long branch line. The Boulby branch would have added some extra freight activity too.

    Why they ended the ECW route and Eastbourne is beyond me. Going to Hastings would have given us the some very nice coastal scenery plus the interest of having to change ends at Eastbourne.

    Including the Falmouth branch line on WCL would have made it into a nice mini network, seems very odd to leave it out. It is a nice scenic branch too with its viaducts and Falmouth is an interesting place.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2022
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  25. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Likewise Bakerloo, they could have extended it to Watford Junction and either retro-ed the era when LT ran through or layered in the 313s for the Overground service. Including Euston would have been the cherry on top of that!
     
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  26. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I hope DTG take note of these suggestions, they make sense and add to the game imo.
     
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  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I think a New Jersey Transit line would be more appealing then the Harlem line for some players since the LIRR and MNRR trains are effectively the same with some minor differences
     
  28. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    OK Then and for a NJ Transit route they can bundle both NJCL and Raritan Valley Line with Raritan Valley Line giving NJCL Rush hour action around Newark and New York Penn Station. ÖBB routes if made do end up changing selected German routes for Schnellfahrstrecke every 07:30 Köln Hbf trip is an ÖBB Nightjet Wien Hbf Aachen Brussels Midi trip. Hauptstrecke München-Augsburg 08:40 Augsburg Hbf is a Railjet while München Hbf its the 22:50 Nightjet and 20:43 Railjet. You over take a DB BR146.2 assuming you have Main Spessart Bahn or Riesa-Dresden
     
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  29. mrchuck

    mrchuck Well-Known Member

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    I hope they’ll do New Jersey transit Raritan valley line sometime in the future.
     
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  30. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    You mean 119km 74 mi Poughkeepsie to New York Penn Station and Grand Central. Mine is 312 km 194 mi Westbahn Salzburg Wien Hbf freight Salzburg Gnigl to Wien Kledering.
     
  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Every piece of rail on the planet makes sense so someone somewhere, but as with all development that has to END somewhere also
     
  32. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    Like many things in life game development is always constrained by compromise
     
  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, so all the "well it should have gone here" above needs to be tempered by "but they had a deadline, even if self imposed"
     
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  34. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, what really got me in the early years was people calling DTG lazy for only taking GWE as far as Reading, when the devs were literally working round the clock - us in Matt's discord knew there'd be a TSW DLC announcement imminent as he'd be online (mostly in TSW as well) pretty much all day and all night.

    They developed so much stuff to make GWE a thing (passengers, UK signalling, diesel hydraulic systems, etc), but nah they only went to Reading the lazy gits, I could've bashed it out in 5 minutes something something something.
     
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  35. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    TS 22 NEC NY New Haven 72 mi 82mi if start point was Newark, NJ.
     
  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I get that people who don't do a job don't know how much it takes to get it working even generally, let alone to a semi-polished standard. I don't doubt that my comment won't make a bit of difference to them and they will continue to make such assertions simply because they want what they want
     
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  37. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I think the really sad aspect of the forums, the more one tries to explain reality, the quicker those people get labeled as “fan-boys” or apologists for the company or paid shills since they dare not to agree with the “what we want, we should get, it is our right” crowd.

    At least there is still a corp of posters that offer well thought out constructive criticism tempered by the appreciation of the difficulties and restrictions of having to develop a profitable product.

    As to lengthy routes, going from reasonable starting and stopping locations with the ability simulate real rail operations with Multiplayer - a solution exists - Run8 provides all the above, but it does not have scenarios, tutorials, achievements or medals. If you want to drive a train for 4 hours in one setting - it is waiting for you. I enjoy it as well as the variety provided in TSW2 and TSClassic, would really not like all three trying to become the same… the diversity offered by these three simulations makes for very enjoyable hobby, allowing you to choose the simulation that fits your mood and available time
     
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  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Such is the nature of the internet and western society in general... "You can have anything you want" has become "You're entitled to anything you want" rather than remembering the additional context of "if you work hard enough"
     
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  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the people who called them lazy wanted the route to perhaps be longer. I mean why else were some people who got the route at the time were calling for route extensions. Reading really isn't a great place to end GWR High Speed Services but considering it was their first route and frankly one of the best in terms of quality, I can't really see the laziness in what they made at the time personally. At least it was a good route even if frankly it was too short.
     
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  40. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Define 'good'. Personally I think it's a pretty boring route, but I guess that doesn't say a thing about its quality. And the route length is fine for the 166 stopping services, but indeed it's pretty short for the HST runs.
     
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  41. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Let's reiterate what CG said: developing GWE wasn't just about developing a 32-mile route. It was also about developing the first passenger route, the first route with a timetable, much less passengers. It was about developing not one, not two, but three locomotives (including the first diesel-hydraulic transmission). The first route with subways, overpasses and platforms. The first route with UK signaling, AWS and TPWS. The first route with buildings and structures along its entire length. The first terminus station with train hall. All in all, GWE was a job of work for a studio team which at that time had only built the first iteration of Sand Patch.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2022
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  42. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh once you do the runs on the hst multiple times I can see why it can get boring quite quick.
     
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  43. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    It's more an issue with the landscape. It's a straight 4-track railroad through a flat landscape. The only good thing about GWE is that it came with 3 totally different trains.
     
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  44. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I agree that, as of this moment, DTG cannot apparently produce longer routes while maintaining quality and economic viability. If that is the case, I would prefer that they concentrate on shorter and better ones.

    However, I do not believe there is anything wrong with consumers demanding whatever they want from a for-profit producer.
    That's the economic system we live in and believe in. Consumers demand, producers supply. If they cannot meet that demand, eventually someone else will.

    The moment we, as players and consumers, stop demanding the best game we can get and just accept whatever is supplied, that is the moment when the game stops getting better. If that means moaning and groaning, whining and criticising, so be it.
    Civility, however, must be maintained at all times.
     
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  45. antony.henley

    antony.henley Well-Known Member

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    longer routes =
    More development time
    More time in construction
    Which in turn = more cost on a routes / projects budget going into the the route which means additional costs would either be soaked up by DTG or passed onto the consumer US.
    Are you prepared to pay more for longer routes?
    not yes as long as this, this and this is included.... Just straight up Yes or NO!

    Hentis
     
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  46. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I think GWE is a really good route, perhaps not up todays standards but its still a fun well made route. Had it been released in the last 6 months then I reckon we would have atleast got the Greenford Branch thrown in and perhaps the Heathrow one as well but Im fairly sure they still wouldnt have extended it beyond Reading.
     
  47. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Given any high speed train is supposed to be GOING at a high speed and therefore given priority as much as possible over everything else on the railway (USA excepting) I would expect all high speed runs to be boring "green light" specials where the most exciting thing is finding your braking point every 20-25 minutes or more when you're going to stop next
    As an example, the Lumo expresses from London to Edinburgh can stop as little as twice in 400 odd miles... That's twice in over 3½ hours...
    Yawn
     
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  48. Aldarion

    Aldarion Member

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    how do you define realistic?
     
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  49. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I know there are complaints about routes not being complete routes or long enough and at the same time complaints about how long it is between UK routes being released, or how many US passenger routes there are in total. If DTG were to make longer, more complete routes the time between your preferred country’s route releases would be longer by default. If all routes were longer, and had been from the start of TSW development and had all the extra trains required, then there would be a lot fewer routes overall. It’s the same argument with calls for route extensions and remaking GWE in a more modern setting. Fewer routes to choose from.

    Then there is the cost of DLC. Some people would be prepared to pay more for longer routes but that wouldn’t cover the additional cost of development (proportionally) due to the number of players who would be priced out of buying DLC altogether, and the game would still lack variety. You have to be careful what you wish for, in case it comes true.

    Speaking from my own experience, the only route I have thought was too short from a satisfaction point of view for each service driven is HRR. We have seen that longer routes are being developed now but some shorter ones are still being made. In any scenario some players will always want even longer routes no matter what is produced. If the ECML was made in full, there would be complaints that some branch lines should have been included. It’s a never ending battle. DTG have the desire to make longer routes already and in some cases have had to cut their plans down because it hasn’t been possible to deliver on time and in budget. Extra resources had to be thrown at the Rush Hour routes, including an increase in price and a longer wait for us, plus some cuts to route length, and the third line was cut from Sherman Hill too.

    So, when asked if DTG should start making longer routes my answer would be that they already have started making longer routes. It’s just that some people will never be satisfied with the length they get. And we shouldn’t be pushing so hard for DTG to bite off more than they can chew because we have recently seen the results of that too. There will be a natural progression if DTG follow their own path and they have a pretty good handle on what players want anyway. Longer, busier, more realistic routes are all perennial requests but the realities of delivering them also remain. The community has to take that into account when demanding things happen right now.
     
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  50. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    The funny thing is, people aren't only asking for longer routes, they're also asking for networks and branch lines. That's more track to make, but the end-to-end journeys won't be longer. It's one of the reasons I didn't buy Cathcart, because any service seems to be pretty short, which is a downside of making networks...
     

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