Who Think That Dtg Should Start Creating Longer Realistic Route, This Year?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix, Jan 30, 2022.

  1. cali100001

    cali100001 Member

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    Agreed. Scaling is so Super Nintendo. I can play F-Zero for no more than 3 hours (achieving and beating Master level), but wish badly to have a FULL 400 mile Amtrak route
     
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  2. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not quite. Look at "Train route", a game released in the last six months that definitely is NOT to scale...
     
  3. Aldarion

    Aldarion Member

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    Actually I like ETS2 being scaled. I dont think I would play it if i really had to take 5 days to drive between lisbon and berlin... on the other hand, what you did with ETS was what ahppened when i tried Train Life: a railway simulator... it is scaled.... and it doesnt work for me.
    why?
    well, ETS may have a scaled world but vehicle behavior is pretty much decent in terms of simulation... You experience the acceleration, braking reaction and such physical and mathematical simulations quite well according to truck specs.
    Train Life? oh boy... scaled world... too scaled, if you know what I mean... and scaled physical behavior.... you can drive 'on sight' and the trains physics makes it look more like a kart simulator then a train...
    awful experience!
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2022
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  4. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with this. Just have a look at the details of the stations, you may not even notice them. For those days they created a very busy timetable with over 300 services, two yards and so on. Also the built a loader and so on. It is not just three locomotives. Later on they developed a lot more functionality, but also given it is the second route for TSW it is well done and interesting enough.
     
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  5. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Remember the immortal words of DTG when they said 'making longer routes is not a problem but making them interesting is'. :|:|:|
     
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  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Long routes can be interesting and many full line routes around the world aren't 100+ miles long so I never understood that statement especially since DTG are trying to make longer routes
     
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  7. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    A lot of players also mention they usually not playing tsw for more than 1 hour. Thats probably the case for most of the time. But mixing that with the question about route lenght or ets2 doesnt make any sense to me.

    ETS2:
    You get from point a to point b, thats how the game is based on. If point b would be a real scale distance the game wouldnt be fun anymore for many people. Beside that the simulation aspect is way lower as in tsw2. Thats why you cant compare them.

    TSW2:
    To bring the example of the harlem line, if you dont have much time, do a service to white plains, and if you have more time another day you can do a service from grand central to southeast. Also somebody mentioned one time; a longer route gives the playe a hell of choice. I totally agree on that.
    Beside the archivement hunting, there is no problem to take over a passenger service at any point of its line. Since DTG improved the traffic side of the routes a lot, even on a long route you have short services too.

    On the business case site, DTG wont for sure not create longer routes for the same amount of money. Thats why merging / extending has to be forced in development.

    - Nobody will get forced to pay more money on a long route:
    - You can just buy your extensions to a point you like
    - The gameplay aspect brings you a lot of possibilities

    Well i liked the discussions about longer routes & merging / extensions past few months. As a customer wants to pay, and seeing how DTG is ingnoring this very topic, sometimes this looks to me like:

    !.jpg

    TSW should be THE improved follower of TS Classic, not a niche product parallel to it.
     
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  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Extensions are possible but dtg just won't do them. Like how they don't make historic German routes
     
  9. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    They first definitely need to fix one problem before being able to which i also really want which is THE SAVE GAME Function in game, because this game doesn't work at all. Once they are able to fix this problem, then hopefully the team would more likely be able to do longer route and other route as well. :D:cool:
     
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  10. Felix Costa

    Felix Costa New Member

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    IMO the best way to please most of us would be pluggable routes.
    I'm not a programmer but Matt said time ago that would be possible to implement it. You have BML and ECW the system would detect that and plug them together. I know about the Wivelsfield branch but this just an example.

    That way you can choose wich route branch to buy if not a fun of longer routes.
     
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  11. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Me too m8. It was such a vague statement.
     
  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's hard to understand. For a route to be interesting, there has to be a decent density of detail and complexity, whether in scenery, stations, traffic or suburban/urban development. It's not hard to make a 100 or 200 mile long route with nothing in it (say, much of the Trans-Siberian): but it would be boring AF. For some people Clinchfield and Sherman Hill already fit that criterion. For me it's LGV, although at least that's over with quickly. But to do 200 miles and make it as packed as Brighton Mainline or Riesa-Dresden? That represents a huge job of work, bigger than can be economically done at a 25-pound price point.
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    But frankly interesting is subjective. You may find doing a long SNCF LGV service to be boring but another person may enjoy it for example.

    At least dtg are trying to make long routes which is a good thing. It kinds sucks when I finish a service knowing that the line goes even further. I enjoyed driving the train to the point that it would be cool to go even further. I don't expect a 200 Mile High speed route anytime soon though.

    Frankly this poll is unanimous. Even though the fourm doesn't represent the majority of the playerbase, I can't say i'm suprised.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2022
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  14. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    How about an international route that is very busy and end up filling traffic on existing routes.
    Hollandstrecke Duisburg-Oberhausen-Arnhem 99km L37 Liège Aachen
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2022
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  15. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, SPG by definition is a longer route but last night dragging uphill at 24 MPH, found myself dipping into a book and glancing at the screen now and again to check I wasn't speeding (too much).

    By contrast, I've been watching some of the Balkan cab rides uploaded to YT by a guy called Dulevoz.
    This one is magnificent:
    4K CABVIEW Capljina - Sarajevo - 99 tunnels and 65 bridges - The Neretva River Canyon - YouTube

    or this:
    4K CABVIEW Bar - Bijelo Polje -102 tunnels -96 bridges -1029m altitude change from Sea to Mountains - YouTube

    If either of those routes ever appeared in a train sim, despite the linear nature I could always keep coming back to that glorious scenery.
     
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  16. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I usually just fall asleep. That was a big issue when TSW2 had recently launched and SPG had become my favourite route. So despite it being enough to send me to sleep it wasn’t because I didn’t like the idea of a run that takes a couple of hours.
     
  17. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This is such a flawed statement.

    For example, London St. Pancras to Leicester is 99 miles and takes just over an hour from end to end if going express. Therefore, it would be no difference to the current journey times we have in TSW.

    Longer mileage doesn’t automatically mean longer journey times.

    To me I think this is just another made up excuse by DTG.
     
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  18. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    That scenery is amazing :)
     
  19. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. SPG for example takes a long time to complete but that's because your doing around 25-40 MPH. If you had a similar length route but if the speeds were higher (80-90+ MPH) then journey times would be less. Just because a route is 100 miles for example doesn't mean it would take 2 hours to complete.

    It's unsurprising when some people ask for route extensions, route mergers or longer routes. My take on it is that they enjoyed playing with the train so much that when you get to the end of the line but knowing it's not the end since the service goes further. That leads to some wanting route extensions or route mergers because they wanna keep going for the enjoyment.

    I see that as a good thing for DTG because it lets them know that the player enjoyed driving the train and wants to get more out of it. Nothing is preventing then from doing route mergers or extensions if they took the time to do it other then they simply don't want too. If SEHS for example was the most played DLC in 2021, does anyone really think that a extension or a merger to London Charing Cross, London Victoria, Ramsgate, Ashford International and Dover Priory wouldn't sell well especially when more value would be added to the 375 and 465 since those services would be much longer? Personally I don't think so. Heck dtg would probably get additional sales out of the 465 for those who didn't buy it probably due to the length of the services not being long.

    But this is just my opinion of course :)
     
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  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    "Just because a route is 100 miles for example doesn't mean it would take 2 hours to complete."

    But it does take much longer (=costs more money) to develop. 100 miles of Wyoming prairie and 100 miles of southern England are not the same.
    The tech to create mergers has yet to be developed, although (sez Matt) they do want to, in future.

    No, they do not want to do route extensions. Why? because they lose money.
     
  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And how long is that excuse of time and money is gonna be used for? 5 years 10, 15, 20? This game has been out for 5 years. At some point the tech evolves which would make this more efficient. Look I get that side of the story but at some point we should be getting more complete routes instead of routes where the main train doesn't terminate in real life. And no those routes don't have to be 100+ miles in urban only areas
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2022
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  22. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It’s also a much misunderstood statement. I believe it was said in the context of DTG being able to make a 200 mile straight route with one station at each end with just a desert and the occasional cactus for scenery, but it wouldn’t be very interesting. Read from that example that they can’t currently make routes that long that are also interesting (ie a real world route) within their route building budgets. It was an exaggeration by Sam to show a point. It wasn’t meant in a way to say long routes are boring which is how it is being presented every time it is quoted, and quoted often by the same few people.
     
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  23. PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix

    PegasusLeosRailwayFanatix Well-Known Member

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    That is what I am trying to say as well, the longer route doesn't mean that the route is so boring, of course, it has to be a route that has many interesting amazing, breathtaking scenery, for example like the Hudson Line, which as I mention in the other thread there, are more stuff and scenery to look at, despite the fact that the route is 74mile from GCT-Poughkeepsie, which is not that long, which I still don't know why they didn't make this route, anyhow with that being said i really do hope the team will understand that there is no flaw in making a route longer, as long as meet the criteria, of not be a boring route.
     
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  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Not enough, yet. DTG thought that auto-generation was adequate to completing Track 3 on Sherman Hill: it wasn't. And that was just empty grassland, not a populated area.

    If anyone really thinks that they are going to get the whole ECML from London King's Cross to Edinburgh, and only pay 30 bucks for it, they need a reality check.
     
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  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    A ecml would probably be released in sections and then be merged once they get the tech sorted if there ever is a ecml dlc
     
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  26. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I was disappointed with the GWE, I know I am biased and DTG say there were time constraints (put on themselves) but having a less than a third of the route to me was such a let down and in the era they chose was confusing as if they had chosen a time frame before or after electrification then they could have a wider variety of trains.

    If they had done Bristol to Paddington it would open up all sorts of routes for the future. I would have definitely paid more for this as would others. IMO I think DTG underestimate how players want a longer route or complete routes.
     
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  27. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    That is 118 miles 190 kms from end to end but can be shortened to 77 mi 124 km is Paddington to Swindon all 25kv 50 hz since 2020. Paddington to Swindon GWML is the same length as Sherman Hill 77-76 mi 121-124 kms. For a German/Dutch route maybe Duisburg Oberhausen Arnhem Utrecht 134 km 83 mi end result is HRR Duisburg & Mulheim an Der Ruhr Sytrum Busy. Meaning HRR owners will be stuck on their S3 to Oberhausen from Essen Steele Ost due to a freight train running Bochum Ehrenfeld to Zevenaar for Rotterdam or all the way to Utrecht
     
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  28. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    However I rather we didn't see development time that could be spent making several shorter routes put together to make one long route with potentially a year's wait or more in between releases. Maybe do it once to really see how popular it is, but not all the time. There are plenty of interesting shorter routes to make first in my opinion.
     
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  29. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to go against the grain here. I really don't care how long a route is. For me it's a matter of quality rather than mileage. I'd much rather have 30 miles of well modeled and accurate scenery, stations and track with detailed rolling stock, good sounds and lighting than 60 miles of mediocre scenery etc.

    $1-$2 per route mile is a fair price. If you want longer routes, prepare to pay more and suffer much longer development time. If you want Harlem completed to Wassaic, the price and dev time would have to reflect that along with the danger of lower scenery quality. Plus it would require a different business plan with all that extra non revenue time. There would have to be many more people working on several routes at one time and/or many more 3rd party devs, just like what happens with TS. It will happen, just not yet.

    So, for the time being, 30 to 50 miles is going to be the norm, whether a route is " complete " or not. Gradually, original routes may get longer, but any talk of extensions is probably a waste of time.
    At this point in time, I'm happy with short routes, as long as the scenery and gameplay are of high quality and I can see at night.;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2022
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  30. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And we can't even get complete routes that aren't long either. Short route's aren't bad but they don't feel complete.
     
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  31. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well considering that no diesel trains were made for the harlem line, it wouldn't have made sense to make the line to Wassic anyways
     
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  32. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I think you get the point. But, in case you don't, let's change it to Southeast, which is about double the current mileage.
     
  33. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Which is probably why we need more routes where more full services can be completed, regardless of route length.
     
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  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Which is 53 miles with 31 stations. London Commuter is 50 miles with 30 stations and much more services
     
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  35. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Bakerloo line is 14 miles but is a full line route. BKL is 50 miles but you can do full runs from victoria to Reigate or Victoria to Brighton. Full line routes don't have to be hundreds of miles long which seems to be a common misconception when topics like these come up. A complete experience doesn't have to be 100 miles and take 4 hours.

    Some players say they don't have time to play a route for two hours. That frankly shouldn't even matter. One, DTG need to get the save function fixed. Two, if a player doesn't have time time to play a long service or scenario for instance, then they can either play a short service or save the game (whenever that gets fixed that is). There are players that do have time to play a 2 hour service for example. Just because some players may not doesn't mean service lengths should be less than a hour. If they don't got the time just play a shorter service or play when you do have time
     
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  36. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I'm a little confused here. Is the reason for wanting longer routes so that they are somehow "complete " or do you just want "more " of the route. Because most of the routes we have would take an extraordinary amount of dev time to " complete ".
    I'm thinking of Boston, NTP, GWE, the upcoming SOS and any of the North American freight routes. None of those routes are " complete ". Sherman Hill, for example, is just a snippet of UP's trans con route. NTP is barely a 3rd of the Transpennine route. We have just a sliver of NEC so far.
    Leaving Harlem aside for the moment ( I don't know why North White Plains was chosen ), very few routes are going to be " complete ".

    If you just want longer services, why not simply do a round trip. That gets more time in the cab, more AI. Or use the journey mode. It's not a problem to play for hours on end if that's what you want.

    I'm one of those who can usually only play for an hour or less, but I've been
    known to do 2 or 3 services in a row or even the entire SPG in one go. ( if the wife is out shopping or otherwise occupied).
    Unless " completion " is your issue, I don't see route length as a major problem. To misuse a real estate mantra, " Quality, Quality, Quality " is the important thing for me.
     
  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Complete as in the full line of the route. So for example let's say there was the New Haven line and there was a service that went from Grand Central to New Haven State Street Station, I would want to do the entire run from Grand Central to New Haven State Street. Not a service from Grand Central to Stamford and have to give your train up which wouldn't happen in reality. So if a full line route is 45 miles for example, it would be good to get the full 45 miles. not half the length.

    You say do a round trip but the problem with that is many routes have end points where the train keeps going so you would have to get off at the end station and wait for another train and take it over to go back the other direction like the S1 services on HRR. That's very unrealistic to the real world. Yes there are routes that have terminal stations where you can go back to where you started such as Ronkonkoma to penn station and back but the line isn't complete because you can't go to Ronkonkoma. You have to give your train up at Hicksville which is unrealistic.

    You also say just use journey mode but that is basically timetable mode with fixed weather presets. I could go to the timetable and pick the same service in journey mode.

    Full line routes don't have to be hunderes of miles long or take several hours to complete. It just has to be the full line of the actual route. Like Penn Station to Ronkonkoma of the LIRR Ronkonkoma Branch which is a full line instead of Penn Station to Hicksville which isn't the full line.
     
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  38. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    In the case of GWE, definitely. Paddington to Reading barely scratches the surface and is not really a logical end point. If you run some of the longer routes in TS (WCML North, WCML Over Shap, Settle & Carlisle etc.) you get a real sense of a journey going from A to B. In the case of the WCML routes, this will probably be the same section many of the traincrews work then get relief. So you are actually simulating what the real driver does, even more so if you use mods to join the two sections, nearly 200 miles.
     
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  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    :o:o:o:o!!!
    That's eighty miles of urban and semi-urban landscape. In your dreams, buddy, in your dreams.
     
  40. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I said "for example" for a reason. Go back to English class

    Also it's 74 miles not 80 miles.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2022
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  41. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It's an example of pie in the sky.
     
  42. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    It comes down to the fact that DTG are only going to make routes that fit within the budget and allow them to sell for $30. Longer routes will need more dev time and higher prices, and they have repeatedly said that this will not happen.
    So, at this point in time, asking for longer routes and extensions is whistling dixie.
    I'll say it again: 30-50 miles of solid route making is what we should expect. Dresden was 51 miles, Boston 43 and BLM about 50. All good quality routes for $30 apiece. That's where we're at for the foreseeable.
     
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  43. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Steady, boys. This isn't personal. Just different POV's. Right? Right.;)
     
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  44. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    However DTG also need to consider the point at which users vote with their wallets… “Not another 30 mile/50km German Ruhr commuter route with electric Karts/not another southern UK route with Electrostars/not another flat US eastern route using cab cars 50% of the time.” TSW needs diversity (not rainbow type container diversity), something like Port Road from TS or for Germany the Wutach Line and the only way to get those is to start looking at practical and cost effective means of doing longer routes.
     
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  45. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Agree.
    Diversity of routes is necessary to keep TSW stimulating.

    Route length is irrelevant when compared to variety.
    Small scale shunting can be more involving and trump 200 miles of grass, trees or rocks.
    (You can guess which routes)
     
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  46. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that their does need to be more diversity. Even I get tired of seeing German route with a dostos. A diesel only German route would be nice in my opinion.

    I don't count Thardnter Rampe as diesel only because the entire line is electrified but just has a diesel train on it
     
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  47. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    And the diesel is very similar to the Electro-karts in appearance etc. Something diesel loco hauled would be nice, maybe the line from Koln down via Junkerath and Gerolstein towards Trier, or Lindau - Kempten - Ulm (or Kempten to Garmisch via Reutte).
     
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  48. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    A DB BR 641 or a 642 would be amazing diesel trains in my opinion. It's not always about looks of a train but it's about the driving experience. Since the 232 is coming that will give players something new especially those who prefer much older trains
     
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  49. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Or a 628... The first German train I travelled on that actually had cloth seats in second class!
     
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  50. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    This in my opinion is where TWS2 is lacking. When you drive a route in game there is no accomplishment, all you get is a half arsed points system. The game is supposed to be a sim so why can't we have complete routes to sim what an actual train driver does? A complete route hasn't got to be hundreds of miles long just complete.

    This is also why a career mode of some sort would be good for those that want it. Turn up for work, given training, drive your route, get assessed, receive a bollocking if you make mistakes etc etc. Give the game some more depth.
     
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