Why Do The Br363 Brakes Do This? (video Of Behaviour Included) - Thank You.

Hi all

I'm using Rivets 363 and I don't know if it's me but when I'm connected to wagons I can never get the brakes to come off fully. I'll hook up the wagons, hold the relevant train and indy brake release until they show as zero but they always seem to be charging up and applying randomly.

I've attached a screen shot, this is after i've held the ";" down for a good minute and they come back on. Is there a brake mode switch I'm missing? Hand brake is off.

I tried leaving it for brakes to charge while I made a coffee and readings were still same before. There wasn't anything I could pick up in the tutorial about this behaviour

 

That's weird, I've never had it happen. It's true that the pressure never seems to go to exactly 0, but I never had problem moving.

By the way, I believe the 363 wasn't made by Rivet, it's a DTG product. Not that it matters though, I just guessed it worths pointing out.

 

Cheers Dinosbacsi . I might be getting confused with the other German shunter. I had it in my mind Rivet did the red 363 and DTG the Blue.

It does seem to gradually drop down and unlock the brakes, maybe I'm just impatient.

Thank you

 

I do notice though as i'm driving along empty the brake cylinder randomly charges from 0-3.3 and the train stops

 

That‘s your problem right here. Don‘t put the train brake into release, but in running. The release position (as with UK locos) overcharges the brake pipe as can be seen in your screenshot (brake pipe at 5.7 bar when it should never be higher than 5 bar).

DTG did both the red and blue 363 (with some assistance by TSG), Rivet did the 204 for MSB.

 

I'll double check it tomorrow. I "think" it was in driving mode or something if I recall correct and it still happened. I'll see if I can get some video of it going on.

 

Hi all, I've had a play around with this today and managed to catch the behaviour I was curious about. ~
I've spoken through what inputs I'm doing to hopefully make it clear.

If anyone can point me in the direction of the behaviour being normal to the train and explain why or me being a luddite and missing something obvious, doing something wrong I'd appreciate it so I can enjoy playing with it

 

I think I can at least answer the second question: in shunting mode, there is a hard Vmax of 30 and if you exceed it you will get a forced emergency braking. (The theory, I'm pretty sure, is that no engine engaged in shunting has any business doing over 30 and so if it happens it's likely an incapacitated driver or a runaway)

 

I haven‘t watched the entire video (skipped through to parts where I could see the gauges do interesting things) and have 2 comments.

1. You didn‘t show the start of the service. In the video, your issue was already present at the start. What I‘d be interested in is seeing the very beginning when you first set up the loco and couple to cars to see if anything‘s going wrong there.
2. Secondly, you briefly talked about/showed the (emergency) brakes applying at random (from your perspective). They‘re not. It‘s a safety feature: In shunting mode, the brakes automatically apply at 30 km/h, in long distance mode at 60 km/h.

 

Just wondering- over on the other brake stand, is the train-brake handle set to Off? Did you drive from the other side to couple up and then switch seats?

 

Appreciate you taking a look. I'll try and capture another run tomorrow. I thought that may have been the case with the 30kmhg safety feature so that answers that.

I'll do one from set up. I might just be impatient.

 

Here a video including the set up of the train initially as requested. I’m genuinely perplexed why I cannot get brakes to fully release and sure it’s something I’m missing.

Forgive my dulcet tones as I talk through my thoughts. There’s also one of the step weather changes towards end of video before I disconnect from consist I think.

 

Ok, one thing: For the first stop, you used the train brake. May I ask why? You'd use the independent brake with a light loco in real life. This is also where your problems start. At around 4:36, you apply the train brake once more while your brake pipe is still at 5.7 bar. That is a big problem - you should only use the train brake again when the pressure has returned to 5 bar after overcharging. While coupling at 8:46, your brake pipe is at 6.2 bar which is ludicrous and probably leads to your problem.

The one big takeaway is this: Never put the train brake into release unless you know what you're doing and have a specific reason to (which is pretty much never in TSW). Try running a service without using the release notch and you should be fine.

A piece of advice if I may. Practice stopping the 363 with a gentle application of the independent brake (no more than 1-2 bar in the brake cylinder) and you won't have her sliding over the rails so much

 

That's interesting thank you. I assumed when releasing the train brake I assumed release let them off. Do I just need to return it to the driving notch then for it to let them off?

What is causing them to stay on after coupling?

 

Exactly. That‘s what I was trying to tell you above. Put in running which releases the brakes. The release notch is for releasing stuck brakes via overcharging.

 

By coupling to the cars with almost 6 bar brake pipe pressure (when the cars have brakes applied), you‘re setting a much higher release presssure. Basically, you created a system in which you can‘t release the brakes due to the overcharge.

 

I'll give it a whirl later. Appreciate your help with this, was puzzling the hell out of me.
Will this make the brake cylinder release to 0 then with a consist?

 

Indeed. Just stay away from the release notch of the train brake at all times and your issue should never occur again. Do be aware though that pumping up the train brake pipe is a lot of work for a little loco like the 363 - you may have to wait a minute or two after coupling for the brakes to release along the train.

 

Just a thank you to everyone above, the explanations have helped me to get my head round. Played TSW since it first came out years ago and that's the first train that's really had me scratching my head.

Much obliged.

 

Happy to be of service, chieflongshin
The 363 is a fantastic bit of DLC, hope you get to fully enjoy it now!

 

TBH, a lot of confusion would have been saved on this and certain other locos (e.g. older BR diesels) if that position on the brake lever were labeled "Overcharge" instead of "Release."

 

Another example of why manuals are useful.

 

roysto25 agreed. I “might” be wrong but I don’t recall it being referred to in tutorial

 

Not on the German ones as far as I‘m aware. In German, I‘ve seen Füllen (fill - as in fill the brake pipe) and Angleichen (matching - called that way because it can be used to make sure the brake pipe pressure matches along the entire train).

 

Just on a side note whilst I was learning I found a video of one pulling ice coaches

 

That's one way to handle an IC with no cab car

(also interesting that DB is using a rental to haul an Intercity)

 

Has to one way or another since I doubt DB Fernverkehr owns any shunters.

 

I don't mean the 363, I mean the MRCE 182

 

Oh, sorry. Just saw the thumbnail of the video and made (wrong) assumptions. In hindsight, should have been obvious the way you phrased it

 

I am also having this problem as well. I don't know if this is how it is in the real world as well. This is the first time that I can't seem to get the brake working especially for this train only.

 

The release mode is also for charging up the brake pipe again after braking, but you never leave it there, you push to release and snap back to running. This is how a real westinghouse handle works anyway and the German system in this train is basically the same for releasing.

Paul

 

That’s useful to know, as I always pull the brake beyond running just by shear accident. Console controller doesn’t give much granularity for the brake, so glad to know it’s accidentally right.

 

Interesting stuff as I've been playing around with the 363 on RSN (I prefer it to the G6 in all honesty) but the brakes do seem a bit quirky. The interesting thing about Release/Overcharge though, is that on some of the UK classic diesels it's the only way to get the brakes off fully. Setting to running quite often leaves a significant PSI on the loco brake cylinders.

 

Isn't that just a known bug on the Class 47?

 

Sure I've had it on other classes too - I'll try and take a note next time.

Back to the 363, well funnily enough doing the second log Journey scenario on RSN, I have had to hit Release to get the train brakes off after coupling to the various wagon rakes. Putting the brake lever in "Driving" is not actually achieving release even though the pressures would indicate they are.

 

Did you actually wait long enough for the brakes to come off? As I said before, pumping up the brake pipe is a lot of work for the 363 and it can take a minute or two for the brakes to actually release. Remember that your gauges only show you what's happening with the loco, not the cars.

 

I’ll try that, assuming I don’t SPAD on the next leg of the scenario, which is what happened last time!

 

Since you don't have either an airflow or EOTD meter, the best you can do is wait until the BP and reservoir pressure fully return to 5 and 10 N respectively.

(Edit: or is there an airflow meter somewhere on the dash? I've never looked)

 

Nope, don‘t think there‘s any German train with an airflow meter. However, a pretty good indicator on the 363 is the compressor. Once you hear it‘s stopped working, the brakes are usually released.

 

When you have 20 habiins freight wagons attached for example, it takes a good amount of time when yoz need to charge the entire pipe from 0.

its similar to uk trains. The cl. 08 has the "ovrercharging" on a button.

 

Fv didn't have enough traction available so hired locos, not really unusual and has happened a lot.