Why Does The Driver Close The Doors?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by 749006, Apr 26, 2021.

  1. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    When you are departing a Station with a Passenger train the Driver is expected to close the doors.
    That is OK with stock that has power doors but why when its Slam doors?

    HSTs, Class 101, Mk1s and Mk2s on different routes all have the Driver Closing the Doors - totally wrong.
    If TS2021 can have station workings that is outside of the drivers control why can't TSW2.

    I understand the Driver pushing a button to release the doors as the sims require it.

    Peter
     
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  2. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    There needs to be something in game to alert the driver that the train is OK to move.
    IRL there would be a guard checking slam doors are all shut and that the train can go and this isn't modelled.
    An "OK half way house" is the not-realistic driver shuts the doors and then gets alerted it's OK to go (ie the task completes)
     
  3. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    You’re expecting too much from the current software.
    Yes we could get animated guards with flags and whistles but the game would probably run at 10-12 fps.
     
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  4. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    yes hong hong
    Driver Close The Doors
     
  5. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't say it's expecting too much. Yes, animated guards would be a step too far, however realistic door operation isn't a new technical feat (even Roblox can handle this):

    Trains generally fall into one of the below categories:

    - Driver Only Operated - This is what the game does - The driver opens and closes the doors at their leisure.

    - Driver Open, Guard Close - This is what Peter is saying - Simply the doors as released as current, and the guard would close the doors (an invisible guard is fine, it's just a case that after 30-60 seconds the doors will close and the driver will receive some form of indication that the doors are shut. This could be a buzzer on UK stock, or a dash light or even a radio message).

    - Guard open and close - This is probably the hardest to implement, as if you stop short then the doors will still be released. There's no opportunity to correct your errors.

    To be honest, this is really fundamental stuff...
     
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  6. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    In the UK up until quite recently (2005) there were also completely passenger operated doors, so the doors would have to start opening randomly below 5MPH and at just before "go time" someone would have to walk the length of the train closing those doors manually, then alert the driver that this had been done
    Some routes had such "slam door trains" even in the 2010s (Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Bay being a notable example)
     
  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    DTG were trying to make a simple one-size-fits-none solution for all its trains, which in RL operate in a plethora of ways. It also gets German trains wrong: IRL the driver only unlocks the doors; it's up to passengers to open them (but no guard closing; they auto-close on a timer).
     
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  8. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    There's a fair few different door control systems in Germany, it's not that simple.
     
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  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    That's because there is no guard/conductor simulated in the game.
     
  10. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I know that - Thank you for stating the obvious
    There should be - even if there is no actual person closing the doors

    The game should at lease be as good as TS2021 not worse -
    1 step forward and two steps back.

    Peter
     
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  11. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    It's the same on most British trains, were the doors close on their own but the driver or guard has to 'lock' them. DTG have used a one-size fits all solution for passenger doors, which is probably the right thing to do until they get to work on passengers. But I agree, door functions are something that DTG should work on in the future.
     
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  12. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    It would be nice if it was designed like how TS21 handles it. Player activates the door, once boarding is complete, the doors close automatically and the player can set off.
     
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  13. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    A single animated guard wouldn't be that performance heavy, don't be silly. It just takes work and programming to do, and they simply have too much other stuff to improve on before.

    And when we have the same 5 passenger models for all routes, I wouldn't expect them to model realistic, distinctive guards and procedures for every route. It's not about performance, just the ammount of work.
     
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  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    DTG has other priorities. I assume this will be added to dtg's never-ending list of things to add and this will probably be implemented in 5 years. I personally would love to see a guard or a conductor in the game to make things realistic for some routes that have them
     
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  15. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about Modern Trains that have Power Doors but the older stock such has HSTs, Mk1 and Mk2 Coaches on NTP and WSR and the Class 101 DMU.

    You are looking a Routes not trains
    Take GWE the 166 has power doors - Guard not required.
    The HST has Slam doors that need to be closed manually - having the Driver push a button in the cab is Stupid
    This part of the game was designed by somebody who has probably never seen a train with Slam Doors

    Peter
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
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  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    More likely they came up with a system "that would do" and didn't wonder why they shouldn't spend two or three weeks coming up with various systems to fit each type of door, genre etc etc
    I mean on top of the guard you would also need working platform side screens such as they have around London, and in cab screens like on the 375 and others... and that's just the UK

    In the end "how the doors are closed" is a very small part of operating a train so whoever designed it was probably told not to put a huge amount of effort into it
     
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  17. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Implementing a way to automatically close the doors upon departure time and making a sound file play simulating the guard's bell wouldn't be that hard would it? I'm also surprised there's still no mechanic for random door opening and closing like how most trains operate, slam door or power operated (only exception I can think of being the Bakerloo line, where all doors open and close at the same time).

    It doesn't need to be overly complicated, just a few varieties of door control would really boost realism and immersion.
     
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  18. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    If it can be done in TS1 then why not in TSW? A simple sound of a guards whistle for older stock would suffice.

    Back in 1983 a driver of a Trans-Pennine service at Huddersfield station wouldn't press a button in the cab of their class 45 and hey presto and train load of slam doors would fling open and then a minute later press the button again and all the doors would close, like some kind of mechanical Mexican wave!

    I would actually prefer it, that when you come a rest at a booked station stop that you didn't need to tell the sim to start the passengers loading sequence and it would assume that responsibility, but maybe that wouldn't be possible.

    Sometimes the small details or lack of them erode away the overall experience and the passenger loading sequence, especially for older trains is one of them.
     
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  19. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    In its current form I see it as this...

    The driver isn’t closing the doors, it’s the player closing the doors. It’s similar to when I change to an exterior camera - I’m not the driver flying above the train holding hands with a magic snowman. I may be the driver of the train but I am still playing a game. If there are buttons in the cab for closing the doors, I can stay in that role for immersion, and never use an external camera while playing (for even better role play). On the other hand, when there is a slam door train for example, I just see it as me in my armchair closing the doors as a player and not the driver character or a guard or whatever.

    That’s how I deal with the current TSW method for closing doors. I guess that as the AI trains follow the same instructions as the player, they needed to be simple and the same across all trains. For now, until they come up with something better, I just don’t let it bother me. Maybe it will improve at the same time the passengers are updated but I’m not holding my breath.
     
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  20. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    You still have to press a button in TS1 to open the doors on slam door stock unless you're in the AP411.
     
  21. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Hey, you weren’t supposed to tell anyone!


    :)
     
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  22. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Back in I think it was MSTS, you'd be sitting in the cab at a station, and when the doors closed, you'd hear a couple of buzzes and a voice saying "Right away, driver". So you could pretend there was a guard back there.
     
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  23. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    My dad used to like walking down the platform closing the doors that others had left open when they were getting on and off the train.

    You could make the close door button inop for slamdoor stock and say you have to look down the train and click on any open doors yourself or just wait for a whistle.

    On really old carriages you wouldn't even open or unlock the doors, passengers used to open them and step out while the train was still rolling to a halt.

     
  24. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I understand that because it needs to register the stop.
    It is the Driver pushing a button to close all the slam doors which is wrong.

    If we can do it in TS2021 why not in TSW2 - I though this was an improvement over TS2021?
     
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  25. roysto25

    roysto25 Active Member

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    This is kind of silly - to be totally realistic you would have to walk down the platform shutting slam doors at random. We have with the slam doors on the HST animation of the window down/up - open/close door. That should be enough. I don't want to take a walk down the platform every few minutes. If you like, add a guard whistle after doors close - we already have the guard buzzer. But no more.
     
  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Drivers didn't walk down the train closing doors, passengers were considered mature and responsible enough to do it themselves. If any were left open it was up to the guard to close them.

    Some of us approach the game/sim in different ways. I see it as a sim not a game, not a perfect one but I would like to try and suspend reality as much as possible. I only drive from the cab for example not from 20 foot above the train. We are all different.

    Is the passenger loading "thing" a big issue, no it isn't and I don't expect DTG to suddenly do anything about it, in fact I don't expect them to do anything about it ever. If they do it is a bonus. But it is a little irritating, as for me it slightly erodes the overall feeling of taking myself back to a bygone era when trains interested me.

    There are other small irritations, like the virtual world looking like the same five people have been cloned and appearing in various different attire in different decades and locations, like something out of a Stephen King novel. Or Blue Anchor beach being empty on a blazing hot summers day as though the four minute warning has been sounded. Or like the lack of life in the streets around or lack of under bridge sounds. All minor things (well not the bridge sound issue that is quite major in my opinion) that may never be addressed but it all adds up.

    It comes to something when its ten year older predecessor despite its many imperfections seems more adept at being a simulator!
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
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  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Nope, just a different game
    Then again some people didn't think automatic doors were an improvement over the slammers
     
  28. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I don't mind the current TSW2 system. I quite like it. Although the way Train Simulator did it was pretty fine too.
     
  29. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    I hate the TS2021 for making it all automatic. I want to do as much as possible myself. It would be a decline ...
     
  30. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    TS2021 has not made it all automatic - TSW2 has by having the driver unrealistically close the Slam Doors of the HST and coaches
    In TS2021 you release the doors - you don't close them unless running DOO.
     
  31. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    749006 If you want, go to the door's and close/open them for the passengers.
     
  32. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    What a stupid reply.
    It never happens in Real Life why should it happen in the game?
    Obviously you have no idea what happens on a real railway
     
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  33. conniethunder

    conniethunder Well-Known Member

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    I'm all for realism. As a member mentioned - simulate not game.
    IIRC, the platform line guards once waved a flag - Red/Green. Perhaps implementing a flashing Red flag during loading time, and then Green when it's safe to move?

    However, I do think we are splitting hairs.
    I'm sure that 'in real life', slam doors could be left open while the train moves off. We could therefore argue that this should be simulated?
     
  34. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    On real railways the driver or guard releases the doors, if the passenger pushes the button the doors open, on some trains if nothing happens within a period of time they automatically close, then either the guard or driver pushes a button which closes all remaining opened doors, then if the guard has their door open they close this and alert the driver to proceed

    That seems like an awful lot of programming for something which many would consider almost irrelevant, though I'm sure purists would want everything to be exactly as IRL
     
  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    They were, it was often a little game of who would be brave enough to try and get off the train first as it entered the station.

    I wouldn't advocate anything unsafe being simulated, however.

    Obviously on many modern trains the driver does open and close the doors, it just seem weird on slam door stock that it is simulated in the same way. It isn't a big deal though so I am not that worried about it. I certainly don't expect animated guards blowing their whistle and jumping into the guards compartment, although it would be a nice touch.
     
  36. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    Awful lot or not, it's a bit of a step backwards if the 'evolution' of train simulation can't do what the previous game can...
     
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  37. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Have you seen a train with Slam Doors - like a HST or Coaching Stock as you find on NTP?
    No buttons to push to make a door open or close

    You have TS2021 - in that the Driver released the Doors by pushing the T key and unless the train is DOO he does nothing else.
    At the designated departure time the system closes the doors and that is indicated to the driver.

    All that needs changing in TSW2 is for the System to close the Doors at Departure time instead of waiting for a Key Press
    Why bother simulating anything then?
    If it can not be done correctly why bother doing it the wrong way?

    Peter
     
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  38. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Just as well you don't work on a real railway then :mad:
    The duties of all staff is to make sure all doors are closed before departure - power or slam doors
     
  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The previous game doesn't emulate all door functions either. Even AP's latest slam door system has some big faults with it.

    Born in Cardiff so all HSTs out that way were slam door when I was a kid, we're not talking about doing things as they do IRL in all cases, more a case of what's acceptable to the most people in the most cases for the expenditure on development
     
  40. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    The Animation to do the Slam Door Closing is already in place for the Driver - sorry PLAYER - pushing an Imaginary Button to close the doors - I was just suggesting it should go under the Computer Control at Departure time - telling the driver when done.

    What is wrong with that?
     
  41. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Because it's not what happens in real life...
    In real life someone goes down the train closing the doors, so if you want to be exact about these things be exact
     
  42. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    In real life the driver is not looking who is closing the doors bus concentrating on where he is going next.

    It is a Train Driving Sim and the process of what happens in real life is not being replicated.
     
  43. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Nope... not a train driving sim, not purely anyway
     
  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In real life the driver is not hanging on a ladder at the front of a half-mile of coal hoppers, but we do it in-game. Why? Because for the nonce our player viewpoint has become that of a brakeman, not the engineer.
     
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  45. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe on American trains
     
  46. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    In train sim world though, you are the driver. Also not everybody goes to freecam. Some actually prefer to play in the cab the whole way
     
  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    to be fair you are driving trains
     
  48. SJA

    SJA Active Member

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    And while we're at it, we can hand out snacks :)
     
  49. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I know, I often play that way too, that’s what I said in my post, but I’m not actually the driver, I’m still in my armchair at home using a Playstation controller. I know some people can immerse themselves in the game a lot but surely not to the point where they think they are in a real train and somehow stop being at their computer using a keyboard and a mouse. There has to be some recognition that the thing they are doing is not real and some things won’t be the same as in real life. I think that’s pretty obvious.
     
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  50. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, DTG stated recently that though driving trains is a major part of the game it's not THE game, in the way that TSC is. And also to be fair, if someone is going to be pedantic on a specific point they best be pedantic on EVERY point, else those things may well get pointed out (especially if they make a habit of it)
    I would expect no less in return (and receive that frequently)
     

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