Why I'm Worried About Rush Hour

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by aglomarsale, May 24, 2021.

  1. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I'd say before that. At railfest, a while back now, steam was announced alongside Rush Hour (as 'Spirit of Steam', which leads me to think it will be another bundle). That early announcementndate makes me feel like we might be seeing it late 2021 or early 2022, with another summer update that isn't steam in 2022.
     
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  2. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Remem,ber it went into 'in production' on the roadmap in January, so it's very possible they're closer to being done with the core work than they are to having started it.
     
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  3. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I think that's subjective. The Unreal engine affects the look and feel of the game world, such as audio, lighting, textures, reflections, motion, sky.

    Some of those things obviously matter to some of the community, and might help improve immersion.
    We'll probably have to wait and see what has improved, and how the community responds to the changes.

    After all, if one little bug can cause a big uproar from a few of us, one little improvement might unexpectedly be seen quite favorably by many of us.
     
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  4. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It may come sooner than next summer.
    This is all true. The subjective nature of a lot of things to do with the game world will dictate how much of an upgrade it appears to be to different players, even if there aren’t that many new features. I’m looking forward to seeing how it turns out, and hopefully performance will be improved across all aspects of gameplay.
     
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  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Go to just after 26:30 on the video... I doubt it's going to be NEXT year's big update if they've announced it, though it could well be around xmas or into next year before they get it out
     
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  6. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Around exactly in between the summer releases makes sense, between november and fabruary. December would make sense from a sales perspective, so that might be it. But I guess we'll have to wait and see :).
     
  7. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I am not remotely worried about Rush Hour on the basis of the pricing, as a £25 or $30/€30 bundle. This is a completely routine annual pricing strategy for DTG in both TSW and TS2012 - they've done this for years, and it makes them plenty of cash (much more than selling the individual items at the same price). That is not a problem. They will then sell further products like DLC locos for these routes.

    I am slightly worried about DTG's ability to organise the launch of three route DLCs at the same time. What happens if two of them are very fast and easy to build, say, because they are ported over from TS2012 (London/Brighton, and Dresden/Riesa)... but the other one is a completely new design, requiring source material from across the Atlantic....? Will they launch the pack anyway, if one of the routes is only half-built, and untested.... like they did with Oakville, leaving behind an unfinished tragedy of a route....?

    The only way to remove the burden of worry from my shoulders, is if DTG could commit to not providing any release date for Rush Hour until they know that all three routes have been completed, tested, optimised, tested again, tested again, tested again, and tested again. And with all of that done on DevKits for both X-Box and Playstation, as well as PC......

    ....and then maybe they could do a rehearsal of the launch stream, just to see if all the DLCs are actually complete and functional.... you know.... just in case the extensive rounds of testing somehow left out a few major chunks of content, missed key feature functionality, didn't take account of serious performance issues, and let a few bugs "slip through the net" (even though, in reality, the net is still in its original packaging, safely locked away in the loft..... just in case that particular net becomes "iconic" and increases in value for future net collector addicts, and can be sold on, completely unused, at a vast profit). That net. The one that everything seems to slip through... um... or past.... very easily.

    The pricing isn't the problem. The "net" is the problem.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2021
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  8. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    ... and completely defeat the point of the streams, which is to show unedited, unfiltered, actual gameplay of the routes. Rehearsing the streams and conveniently avoiding the bugs is going to make them look really dodgy, given Sam has said they should point out the bugs they find (Presumably by zooming in on it and going "oh wow! a bug! How wonderful I am that I've managed to create it" while 50 different people are making 50 different angry threads about it)

    They're not ported over, because you can't just copy and paste a route between TS1 and TSW without also having to do so much work that it's not worth it. London-Brighton has had changes (mainly to the signalling) since it was made for TS1 in 2012. Also, the Dresden route is being expanded on its TS1 counterpart.

    Not going to happen. RH will already have a release date set internally, and won't move unless something absolutely catastrophic happens.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2021
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  9. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Correct me if I’m wrong but I think he meant the assets and/or station building assets. Brighton station on ECW is a complete copy from TS1. You can tell as the textures are low res and everything looks a bit flat as opposed to actually being modelled.
     
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  10. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    What I am suggesting is that until now the launch streams have actually been the first time that anyone has looked at the shipping build of a route, and tested them for more than three minutes (because as we know, "four minutes" would be "countless minutes"). On Playstation this is usually zero minutes.

    The "rehearsal" that I am suggesting is someone, say with knowledge of the DLCs' expected specifications (even if they are not written down anywhere), taking a first "internal" look at the DLCs .... finding all of the major issues that occur in the first few minutes of play... and then sending the shipping build back for re-development.... before they launch or preview the product in public, so that they can get a vaguely working version on the board. But..... you would have to pretend that the "rehearsal" is a real live internet broadcast though (and the presenters would have to be convinced that this is the case), because otherwise it will feel more like just a pre-release development test, which DTG don't seem to like doing much.

    Fair point. I should have said "mostly ported". I think you will find that the vast majority of the builds for SHS were ported over, as a direct copy and paste, vertex for vertex, from TS2012's London-Faversham route - including the textures.

    Okay - well maybe it is a problem if an internal arbitrary deadline takes priority over quality of build....?

    Maybe setting an unrealistic launch date, when the work required to produce a product has not been properly estimated, planned, or resource-matched, and then launching a broken and incomplete product (like Oakville, for example), is catastrophic for all those that want a route (like Oakville) to meet the same final standards as all of the other UK and German routes.....? Maybe that is the catastrophe...?

    Like NEC, when it was part of a three pack (too many issues to mention....).....?
    Like LIRR, when it was part of a three pack (key features like scenarios not working at all).....?

    How well do you think the sales of Oakville went?

    No QA = Less Money


    Personally, I am looking forward to playing the London/Brighton and Dresden/Riesa ports in TSW 2. The US route - I don't know yet... Maybe they will do a fabulous job, like with Clinchfield. Maybe it will just be the sheer horror of NEC again (when it was released). At the moment, nobody knows.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2021
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  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Brighton TS12 and Brighton TSW side by side... spot the difference anyone? (Top is TS1 London to Brighton, bottom TSW2 ECW)

    Brighton TS1.png Brighton TSW.png
     
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  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I've disproved this for almost every station on the route... Especially Gillingham where there are numerous differences.
    Of course they're going to be similar because they're based on the same building, even from the same research, but you can prove that DTG rebuilt each one, and they're not "a direct copy or port"
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I kinda wish they just ported the hs1 fences from ts2021 to tsw2 if that is even possible. The tsw2 hs1 trump wall looks terrible and rushed
     
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  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    GLM TS1.png GLM TSW.png Gillingham spot the difference... Again top is TS1, bottom TSW
     
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  15. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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  16. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Also, the top has a man listening to some tunes and the bottom doesn't.

    Also the bridge is completely different.
     
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  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The entire canopy makeup and columns are different, windows and bridges are different, Even the stairs from platform to station building are different lengths!
    Same vertices indeed...
     
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  18. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Okay. I will take your word for it. In that case they have done an amazing job, building out SHS in TSW 2, without re-use of any parts of the TS2012 assets/designs.... and making large chunks of it look exactly the same. They must have (or had) an incredibly consistent build process across their teams.

    Quite laborious, indeed. Building everything from scratch twice. If you are right, then that itself explains quite a lot of things.... ;-O

    Personally, I have absolutely no problem with them duplicating assets and porting them over to TSW 2 - but if they thought it would be a better use of their time to re-build everything, then, well, you know best.

    When it comes to the Rush Hour routes, I would have largely duplicated the (very recent) Dresden/Riesa and the (not quite so recent) London/Brighton content with materials from the T2012 equivalents, and/or the TSW 2 Brighton build in ECW. As others have said, the London/Brighton stuff would need some update to it. I would then invest the time saved into the new US route.

    But maybe they will just build everything from scratch. You know - from the ground up.
     
  19. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    You could probably bring the model across and it'd largely survive (might look a bit odd sometimes if it's a particularly old model), but you'd have a hard time bringing the textures, especially the materials, across purely down to the fact TSW and TS1 are lit and handle materials completely differently.
     
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  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Or maybe they use different software with no port between them so they can't do this
    Either way your assertions that they're exactly the same isn't right
     
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  21. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes - I think you are right - they are not always exactly the same (although the textures can be....). And to be absolutely fair - I think my "vertex for vertex" statement is taking it way too far.... cos... um.... I am wrong about that.... (I re-checked why I thought this previously, and I have now found that I was wrong to make such a strong statement). Thank you (sincerely). I am always very happy to be proven wrong, in the pursuit of knowledge.

    But I suspect that the original models are both built in, or imported into and modified in, the same modelling software, such as 3ds Max. And that they usually share the same source computer model (not just source photos and drawings). Just a guess - it would be completely nuts (in my opinion) to model the whole of Riesa/Dresden for a recent TS2012 release, and then remodel it again from scratch for TSW 2.

    Anyway - back to topic - I am very much looking forward to dropping £25 into DTG's coffers for the three Rush Hour routes, without too much worry, except for the use of nets (or not).... ;-)
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2021
  22. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    They use 3ds max 2016 for TS1. Not sure if it's the same for TSW.
     
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  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The kent area of sehs looks fine. The HS1 section of the route however is not good looking and feels rushed to meet a deadline
     
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  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Going back to Gillingham. The platform canopies are completely different shapes, the bridges are different shapes, the stairs from platform to station building are different... I think you get the idea

    And yes, the London-ward fencing is utter nonsense on the route. And I think the posts at the time made sure DTG knew that one!
    (and let's not get started on issues like bridges being wrong)

    Hmm... There are very much valid points in the Kent region which could be made, but it's whether it's worth it (gillingham crossing footbridge being a glaringly obvious one)
     
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  25. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I know. I looked at Gillingham again, and you are right. That's what I have already said - I got it wrong.

    I thought I had pretty convincing proof of the "vertex for vertex" thing (which is why I said that), but I was wrong. I misinterpreted some data, so that it appeared to me to say what I possibly expected it to say, when in fact it didn't say anything of the sort. It's a classic cognitive bias problem, that I appeared to have tripped up on, and found eggs and bacon, with mayo (gotta love mayo with eggs), liberally spread all over my face.

    I made a mistake, and I have already admitted it. I got it wrong. I wasn't correct. You are right. I am not sure what else I can say to convince you that you are right, and that I am wrong.... ;-)

    ......although that texture for the waiting room at Gillingham is the same..... ;-p

    I have no idea what this is about - I have not made a single comment about the SHS fences, ever. However, since you have afforded me the opportunity to make an extremely silly joke, I can say this:

    It was not my intention to cause a fence. [cue laughter soundtrack]

    It's better than my psychopath cycle path joke, I can tell you. That went down like a lead balloon when I tried it on a stand-up stage in NYC (and thankfully, I didn't give up my day job at the time.... and although I have now.... and anyway I don't currently have a very good face for the live stage.... maybe radio..... I always quite like Round The Horne....).
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2021
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  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    That bit was aimed at the comment below yours, forum mods prefer one reply to address all rather than separate responses...
    But I went back and looked (including surfing a Javelin, if you don't know what I mean spawn on foot at Ebbsfleet and walk through the Up Thames tunnel until the next train comes along) and the fences are awful close up
     
  27. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    "Upgrades to immersion controller scheme" Is this the long anticipated joystick/controller support?

    Gradient profiles is a nice surprise.

    By the way: In my opinion the pricing "issue" is a red herring. TSW2 had 2.5 routes (SPG was quite heavily updated iirc) for the price of one, including certain new features and an engine update. Some later releases have had poor reception/quality for the price of one route and some have had good reception/quality.

    Basically there is a weak/no correlation between price and quality of DLCs in TSW.
     
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  28. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    No, it's just moving the controls around so you can do more stuff without having to stick a keyboard in your console.
     
  29. Alexandreo3

    Alexandreo3 Active Member

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    I slipped the thread so I don't know if your questions has already been answered.
    But the simple answer is the calculate a loss here ergo why we get three routes for one to get new players hooked.
    That's it.
    They hope to broaden their player base to sell more in the future and are therefore making a smaller profit or even a loss on this one.
     
  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Which leads one to wonder, which of the three is the "A" team that built Clinchfield working on?
     
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  31. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Maybe there's an A-team or maybe teams are divided into regions. If so the "A-team" was the one that does the NA routes and will be doing the NEC. But I'd call the team(s) that did HMA, HRR and MSB A-teams as well. That's just my opinion though ;)
     
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  32. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    It's not about pre-ordering (I never pre-order anything), or even watching some streams. Often these bugs don't stick out in a few live streams. What I'm more worried about is that content comes out in a problematic state and we have to wait months, or even more to have them fixed. I would actually like to purchase and enjoy these pieces of content, what I'm worried about is that I won't feel it's worth it, even after release. And if this happens several times then I'll just give up on future content and keep enjoying what's available now, for a while before moving on completely.
     
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  33. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I don't blane you. Heck SKA which is a core tsw2 route crashes when you approach Koln HBF with layers on with last gen and sometimes even current gen consoles and there is no fix for that whatsoever.
     
  34. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yep - this is exactly how I feel. I never pre-purchase software - that just applies pressure to developers to Rush Out the next release. But.... when software is released I do like to buy it within days (sometimes within hours) of that release. I can wait, of course. .......but it is important to positively support developers with full price purchases, when this is reasonable (if you can afford it). I want to give them maximum possible cash, so they can keep making the stuff that I really like.

    But - when it becomes really clear that no tests take place for the shipping builds at all, and that major problems are revealed live in the launch stream (which get fixed a few weeks later if there is enough uproar), then I get really annoyed. Because it feels, as a supportive customer, that I am being treated with outright contempt. And it is worse than that - because if you want to use the broken product that you have bought immediately upon release, and you can't, or you can't enjoy it, then you might start to resent the product itself, and/or feel like a complete fool for supporting the developer in the first place, and trusting them to be reasonable.

    I am not talking about minor bugs, or things that only become apparent if you do something odd or unexpected, tens of hours deep into exploring the depths of the content. I am talking about broken Introductions and the key feature content that you use in the first hour..... not working...... and which would have been found if someone (anyone at all.....) had checked the shipping build for just two hours. Or even for just five minutes.

    And I find it upsetting that to fix these sorts of issues that "slip the net", that the community has to react with some sort of extreme and immediate anti-marketing backlash. I am guilty of doing this myself, and I really hate having to do it. But if there is no significant backlash, then I get the feeling that the developers will think "Wow - we really failed to make this product work, but hardly anyone is complaining this time (it is less than a thousand), so we can scale down our testing even further next time, and put less and less effort in.... until the noise becomes uncomfortable again." And then the major issues become "historic", so they don't get addressed..... so you then end up with a large back cataolgue of broken/incomplete content like you have with TS2012.

    But I want TSW (or TSW 2, etc.) to be different. I want it to work. So please, for the Luv of Google...... please please please please.... can someone... or... anyone.... please test the shipping build of Rush Hour for a few hours, before it gets released. Please.

    Please get Rush Hour right first time - straight out of the box. For all three routes. On all three platforms.

    Get it right.... just once - try it out for size - and see what happens. Because if DTG get Rush Hour right, then the payback for them will really be worth it.
     
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  35. traingeek241

    traingeek241 Member

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    I would imagine they would use the old Brighton Mainline DLC from TS and use that as a base design and expand from that with better graphics, track, scenery, buildings etc.
     
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  36. J.T.

    J.T. Active Member

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    The answer is quite simple: They'll sell "Train Sim World 2: Rush Hour" with three unfinished routes, full of flaws and bugs. Just like it was with TSW2. And I think that the price is not the decisive factor at all.

    Then for a certain period of time they will improve what they can improve, until most players lose interest and jump into buying new DLCs and new editions of TSW. And so on. This is how the business goes. Why fine-tune a product when customers gulp down everything like pelicans? I'm quite sure you'll buy whatever they give you ;)

    So why should DTG care about quality when players apparently only care about quantity? You want as many routes as possible, as many locomotives as possible, as many DLCs as possible and all of this as soon as possible (or rather impossible).
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2021
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  37. ghall59

    ghall59 Active Member

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    I don't pre-order but rather wait and see what it's like. I do hope it goes well for them though...

    I'm just relieved it wasn't a DTG in joke to rebrand the product to reflect the way it's produced....
     
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  38. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Just wish that they would slip DLSS in the update. One can but hope.
     

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