Asked this on the Roadmap Q&A but presumably went unanswered, so felt compelled to start a discussion on the issue - not that DTG will provide an answer either… However, in the light of the next German route being based around Frankfurt and yet again ignoring the Capital city I think it’s a fair question, why are you ignoring Berlin? London has several routes in and around the capital (edited to remove New York as my Sunday morning brain forgot Washington DC is the Capital ). Are there technical reasons? We know that light baking for underground sections is challenging but you’re an accomplished software house and should be taking that in your stride. Is it scenery complexity? But hang on, we just had NLL come out which by all accounts has half the buildings in North London replicated. Is it licensing or access? Well can’t see that as most of the lines are DB operated and we have both Ringbahn and “Heart” in TSC. Or is it political, the elephant in the room but question that must be asked? Is there still a taboo over Berlin in light of former political events and the city being synonymous as the centre of the Third Reich and all the dreadful baggage that brings. Well it’s 80 years this year since that was purged and over 30 years since the Berlin Wall came down. I posted this here rather than in Suggestions as it is more the overarching issue “why not?” when there are numerous possibilities for a really good route in or around Berlin.
If I recall correctly, Lukas is on record somewhere as saying that most routes to/from Berlin are actually pretty boring once you leave Berlin itself. I am inclined to agree with him on that... Aside from that, a major difference between London and Berlin is that London has lots of different termini, all of which make a compelling start point for a route. Berlin's rail network is very different, as it has through stations, and even many regional trains don't terminate in the city, but run through. Both of these factors together mean that a good TSW Berlin route would need to be very long - doing just one half of either the Stadtbahn or the North-South Tunnel and terminating at Berlin Hbf simply wouldn't do - and difficult to make, as a large part of it would have dense urban scenery. That means that doing Berlin would be more challenging than London or New York as far as I can judge it. Another thing to consider is that Germany is much less focused on its capital than many other countries, including the UK. Not having Berlin in TSW is a much smaller deal than not having London would be.
Berlin itself would be nice and interesting, but I have to agree that most of the routes in the surrounding area tend to be quite bland and straightforward. Some also tend to lead through dense forests most of the time (Berlin - Frankfurt(Oder) for example). Germany can offer a wide variety of different landscapes, and has some quite unique routes left which aren't in the game yet. I could name at least 20 right away which I'd love to see in TSW and each of them would add a lot of value, but none of them is located anywhere near Berlin...
If it is about german commuters especially S-Bahn, then S-Bahn Berlin is what we miss most in TSW. Btw.. In upcoming Subwaysim 2 we will get S-Bahn Berlin stock as AI.
Honestly all I want from German content at the moment is something fresh. The constant DB 42X EMU’s, Dostos & ICE’s is very stale. Every time we get an S-Bahn pack it’s another 42X unit, something like Berlin could have given us an interesting S-Bahn route. The locations themselves though seem to be biased by where Lukas wants to focus on. In any case the German routes seem to be most affected by the texture memory leaks, so until that’s sorted I’ll be staying clear regardless.
All beautiful pictures up there, I've been too just last month and I wanted to add this one I've managed to catch =p
Instead of developing new places, it's better to expand the old DLC. I always hope that DTG will expand the "Dune Level", "Pittsburgh to Washington DC"
Although it most likely won't be happening, I'd like that a lot. There's much potential in such expansions, on basically any route
Amazing photos you have there. Can’t believe I was at this station in 2009 on a School Trip for a week… Feels like a lifetime ago now yet I still remember it like it I was there last week. I Went there both during the day and night. It was so stunning at night time. Really loved all the lighting in the station. It was epic. Visited a couple museums and also the famous Reichstag. travelled by both the S Bahn and the U Bahn. one of my biggest regrets was not getting photos .
Germany has a complex history, so the question of capitals is also complicated - Berlin is the current capital, but 44% of Federal government is still in Bonn, which is much more interesting in terms of scenery. Also, we have some of the former capitals - Aachen and Frankfurt!
Have to agree sadly. Berlin and its immediate surrounding suburbs, so everything the S-Bahn reaches basically, is highly interesting. The routes the trains take after leaving fare-zone C and the Außenring are boring as heck and that would limit any possible respresentation on a purely S-Bahn DLC. Most trains just go through the city, RE1 for example connects Frankfurt (Oder) and Brandenburg (Havel) on their short runs (Magdeburg and Cottbus on the long runs) and that's roughly 155 km of distance on rails if an end point for goods trains at Brandenburg is included. For long distance trainseven the ICE that actually terminate within Berlin just turn around there and would need some destination that isn't just Potsdam on a backdated 1990's route for example. A short commuter run with the RB11 from Nauen to Berlin-Südkreuz might be something, but not much really. Small destination on one terminus, disproportinally large terminus at the other end. Every Berlin DLC would need the S-Bahn system though, even the through-routes. That's a whole new system with whole new trains, custom safety system. If either the S-Bahn or the Fernbahn would just be AI and not the focus, there'd be an uproar since it's a mix of those two systems that make the city busy. Also the U-Bahn is visible on all routes basically, be it north-south at Gleisdreieck or east-west at Warschauer Straße. Plus an AI tram system for every station in the east. And should it be a through-route, say actually the RE1, there'd be at least 3 differeant tram systems to be made since all three cities have tram systems at their main stations (long run RE 1 even 5 systems since Magdeburg and Cottbus have trams as well). Also not to forget all the Stadler trains that have been running in Berlin for decades now (RS1, various KISS, sometimes FLIRT and now the new S-Bahn itself [although that's a joint venture with Siemens]). We currently don't even have one of those. As much as I as a local would love to see my hometown in TSW, it will never ever happen because it is just too much new stuff to be built to at least satisfy the common Berlin tourist on a basic level.
Absolutely not. Bonn has a good scenario if it is about the Rhine valley. The architecture of the city especially the federal government buildings is boring modernistic 1960's style. Berlin has a lot of wonderful classicistic architecture (Unter den Linden, Brandenburger Tor and so on). It has futuristic architecture like the Pariser Platz too And of course the scenic TV tower. Then you have a network of rivers with wonderful historic railway bridges. "Berlin ist eine Reise wert." Even in a train simulation.
I think I heard that they do not want to make the Berlin route because the city is very complex and difficult to develop because of this
Honestly, I feel that most people who say 'we need the S-Bahn Berlin', are probably from Berlin. Not sure if the rest of Germany is really that interested into it. Long distance routes from/to Berlin seem more interesting. But you have the big problem that from an operational perspective, most routes around Berlin aren't very interesting. And to have logical start/end points, we'd need a huge route. Otherwise it will end in nowhere. So Berlin is pretty hard to do justice in tsw. Not even talking about the complex scenery of Berlin.
Let's see how S-Bahn Frankfurt turns out. Also, I do agree that S-Bahn Berlin would probably be better than Berlin to somewhere. But I, personally, would be more interested in S-Bahn/Hochbahn Hamburg. I am from Bavaria, btw
Yes I heard this too… Frankfurt S Bahn has to suffer from this also. Not so much about the city but the underground stations are also too complex…. So half of the route is missing which is a shame…
I don't want them touching Berlin Hbf unless they can absolutely NAIL it. That building is so cool. Loved looking down at the lower levels all the way from the top.
I can agree with the fact that Berlin anything would be extremely complex if anything for the amount of tracks and rolling stock and custom buildings and one big Berlin DLC done well would cost a price close to nobody would be willing to pay for it (IDK, a hundred bucks new? more? and even then the price only makes sense when multiplied by the potential buyers, which at that price already would be extremely few). One can dream of it someday existing and some other further away day buying it on a big discount though lmao. And I'd love it. Certainly more so than many others. Bonn was suggested up there and, while you'll have me enthusiastically saying yes to ANY suggestion of DACHINL route, I'd take the hundred bucks Berlin DLC over Bonn-anything after having been to both. Bit of a boring city.
I'm definitely not a "Berliner". But I love S-Bahn Berlin since I was a child. When I play with the M3 and hear the door bell, it remembers me so much on the door bell of the good old S-Bahn train "Stadtbahner". When my parents traveled with me to Berlin. The S-Bahn Berlin experience was that thing I was most exited about that trip. Okay in the meantime other historical sights of Berlin I'm interested about too. But S-Bahn Berlin with it's unique livery and rolling stock, that always remembers a bit in their design on the "Stadtbahner" is a great thing for me. Even I'm normally not so interested in comuter trains, but S-Bahn Berlin is something special like London Underground or Paris or Moscow Metro for me.
Train Sim Classic has Berlin-Leipzig and two entire S-Bahn routes (Ringbahn and S25/26) on Steam.... the S-Bahn Lines to BER and Königs Wusterhausen are in development at this moment. I understand that many people play on consoles, but someone like OldVern could just reinstall TSC and get those three DLC, if he wants Berlin so badly. Why do I say this? Because Berlin is not something, you just do in some random DLC in a couple of months. It has taken the better part of ten years to create several S-Bahn routes with the right stock in Train Sim Classic. I´d be very suprised if any developer takes on this huge task in Train Sim World. Especially if your talking Stadtbahn. It passes by hundreds of unique buildings along the way. Asset creation would be totally out of budget for people trying to make money with payware. Talking of Berlin: Subway Sim is doing U1 and U3 in the second iteration of the game. I´ll be picking that up, when it´s out.
Frankfurt has a better rail scene not everything has to be based around the capital city (and it’s the first time we’re getting a true S Bahn experience like it is in most parts of Germany)
I’m certainly not. I don’t see much of interest in Berlin for me. Though I have to admit that I’m biased against Berlin just because I don’t much care for the city in real life. +1 for Hochbahn HH. That would be amazing if the scenery holds up. I was thinking something similar. Operationally speaking, Berlin isn’t all that interesting compared to something like Frankfurt (Main). Disclaimer: Obviously, all of the above is only my opinion - nothing more.
Appreciate the perspective on this, particularly from our German friends. I can certainly see the point that Berlin while being the capital is not necessarily the focal hub of the country, in the way that London is for the UK compared to Birmingham, Manchester or Newcastle. As I said, having driven Ringbahn and the Heart routes in TSC, I just feel they would be further enhanced by development into TSW including the all day timetable.
Berlin - Leipzig should be doable, and is actually a fun route. I've watched a couple of Fuhrerstandsmitfahrten on it. EDIT: scratch that, actually. I've looked it up on the map and it's a actually a massive distance. DTG will probably never make such a long route. It just feels short when you're watching it in 3x speed on YouTube :p
Thank you! I visited Berlin for the first time last October and loved it. Sounds like you have a great time too - and agree about the lighting. For anyone interested, while waiting at Berlin Jungfernheide for the Ringbahn, I saw this pass by which was a lovely treat. Anyone know anymore about these locos - the red looks stunning! Picture taken by me
In the suggestions forum recently, I suggested Berlin to Potsdam (specifically Ahrensfelde in NE Berlin to Golm in Potsdam). Such a route, while being very complex, could offer tons of variety, including the full S7 route as well as lots of RB, RE, IC, EC and ICE traffic etc. For anyone interested, this was some of the main justifications in my suggestion of why a Berlin-Potsdam route would be great: - German capital region and Brandenburg (with the state capital being Potsdam) - Iconic landmarks such as the TV Tower (Fernsehturm), Reichstag and River Spree can all be seen from the route and is of very historical and cultural significance - Having the Berlin S-Bahn in TSW would mean the first German third-rail (750 V DC) train, the DBAG 481/482, as well as the ZBS (ETCS) safety system - While not the longest route - only 60 kilometers/37 miles - it's a very busy stretch of track featuring 35 stations and a huge amount of variety, from S-Bahn, RB, RE, IC, ICE and several international services, plus lots of DMU-operated services too. Part of this route's appeal as already mentioned is variety - and is exactly why the likes of Dresden-Riesa remains such a popular DLC - With Berlin to Potsdam, it would include one of the most iconic section's of railway in the world with the Stadtbahn, a 12-kilometer (7-mile) elevated section of track going east-west across the German capital - The route would include the stunning Berlin Hbf; playable services would only use the upper level east-west platforms via the Stadtbahn while the subsurface north-south platforms would be AI only - While the other iconic Berlin railway landmark, the Ringbahn, doesn't feature as part of the actual route, stations such as Berlin Ostkreuz and Berlin Westkreuz intersect with it, so plenty of AI traffic seen using the DBAG 481/482 here - The main S-Bahn line from this route, the S7, is also home to one of the Berlin S-Bahn depots at Berlin Wannsee - The route would be in a present time setting, but the only difference are services in real life operated by ODEG would in-game be represented as DB; not completely unrealistic as RE1, which nowadays is operated by ODEG, used to by DB with 182s etc - While the DB BR 143 is hardly around anymore, the loco had still been present in relatively large numbers during the 2010s in Berlin after having been reintroduced to provide much-needed capacity until being ultimately replaced by the 147. Thus, the 143 could provide some extra rolling stock variety and would not be totally unrealistic - Some unique services like the Harz-Berlin Express - Mastery Reward could be something like Berlin's famous yellow trams and/or U-Bahn
Despite a few issues and concerns against, there is no really a reason to avoid Berlin on the long term facing its demand for years now and I wonder why it isn't at least on focus a bit more as there are indeed possibilities to get a route outside of or inside Berlin done. Reason "Long Distance to other cities around/no good terminal points to start/end the route" - Well, cut it then? There is no need to make the route up Hamburg, Leipzig, Cottbus, Stettin, Rostock or Stralsund. We have cutted routes all over the place, so why it suddenly is an issue here? And if a route outside of Berlin doesn't provide good start-end experience, then one of the S-Bahn lines could be. But the Nord-South tunnel makes this a bit complicated. Reason "Bland scenery" - Instead of completely focus of mountainous routes (Vorarlberg, Salzburg-Rosenheim, Semmeringbahn, Pfälzische Ludwigsbahn) it would be rather nice if we also would get a route with a pretty linear and straightforward profile in it but rather focuses on the traffic from one city to the other other instead of driving curves and starring at hills the whole time. Reason Performance - Yep, but there are ways to reduce performance by for example just creating the scenery nearby the tracks and eliminating chunks of the city in the background. This is not the best way to do it but if performance simply doesn't allow any enhanced scenery in the background, then get rid off it. When we have cities like London and New York in game, then Berlin will be capable as well. It might not run as smotth as LGV Mediterranea but well you can't have everything. The North-South tunnel including Berlin Hbf (tief) obviously won't be included and thus eliminates a good chunk of lines to and up the main station. Only choice of any line to or over Berlin main station, would need to be over Berlin Hbf (Hoch) and thus the Berliner Stadtbahn crossing the heart of the city with lots of places and sightseeing spots which would be needed to be modelled properly. This is probably the biggest hurdle when thinking of any line to and from Berlin main station. However, Berlin also offers 4 other big hub stations, "the main crosses" (Westkreuz, Südkreuz, Ostkreuz and Nordkreuz/Gesundbrunnen), which partwise even offer more traffic than the main station, which is so complicated situated in the heart of the city. So you could start/end a route also from one of these. It's not necessary to deep dive into the city to get a Berlin route done. Well, obviously scenery complexity will be the biggest hit but as said above, can be done as for other cities. It's important to think smart as a developer but also the customer shouldn't have too high demands as to "Why the hell I can't see X or Y in the background?" . If a situation like this will in place, Berlin is more likely to come. Would maybe require some additional license checks with regional subsidiaries but that's the exact same procedure with other routes when logos and trademarks are important. When thinking so, we shouldn't have any german routes in Train Sim World I guess. Not only in Berlin bad things did happen. One major problem with any Berlin route I see is this one. The special S-Bahn vehicles around BR 480/481 etc. A.) When DTG would do a route to or from Berlin, it requires them to model at least one of those, even if the focus of the line would be regional or distance traffic only. Otherwise people would say, where is the S-Bahn? They can't simply use a 423 or 425 here. So obviously a S-Bahn line having the BR 480/481 included would be only option to handle the problem, however which might not be the solution DTG wants as they would provide playable services of the yet in-game vehicles as much as possible. B.) See how DTG reuses vehicles they already did create on newer routes (which makes abolutely sense), however has the problem attached here that the BR 480/481 couldn't be used on any other than another Berlin route in the future. I personally think this is the true reason why we don't get a Berlin route as it would mean once we did got one, it likely would be necessary to create at least one more to be able to reuse the BR 480/481.
I guess a good question could be is the Berlin Routes in TSC well liked ???. If so I don’t see why it couldn’t come to TSW one day… if DTG can’t do it I’m sure a third party could choose to do it. I’m not even sure who made the TSC version of Ringbahn actually. Was it DTG themselves ????.
It's Jan Bleiß (virtualTracks). He basically creates these Berlin routes alone (only vehicles are from other creators). We already planned to do a Berlin route in TSW years ago. But at the end, for many reasons, we stopped the idea. It's not working out. And Jan (and others) are not willing (or just struggle) to learn the new TSW tech. They instead do further TSC routes until they retire. There is basically no one who could build a Berlin route at the moment. Jan Bleiß is the only person who has all the knowledge, contacts etc. to bring such a project to a success. Not sure if DTG could do it. Technically yes, but it needs more than that.
I really wonder whether TSC routes really still generate enough revenue to not invest time into learning UE. But it seems so? Sure, TSC has a huge player base, but it's not that active anymore. But who am I to judge? It's their decision and I respect that. But it just seems contra intuitive to me.
Less that, probably more they don't think it's worth scaling the difficulty curve of TSW, or they don't want to have to publish through DTG.
The QD in the TSC Version is very well populeted and gives the feel of all day timetable. Start your train at any time and every 2 minutes other S-Bahn will pass by. Do they run to timetable? No.... but you play the game with a timetable in your hand checking if all trains around are running to schedule? All smoke and mirrors at the end of the day.
My guess is that he is doing these projects moreover for the passion for it and not necessarily to gain much revenue out of it. Also needed to be considered if you follow his blog posts is that he's doing an extension to Ringbahn Berlin, the addon which he already worked on a lot and this actually is a way to gain revenue while also expanding his prior DLC. Extension DLCs like that unfortunately are not possible in TSW. In TSW, a commercial extension DLC always needs to contain the entire landscape of old and new extended map (as you cannot add landscape to an already existing route via a new one in the puzzle principle like it is possible in TSC). So that might be a reason to not dig into new projects, if you have the possibility to gain at least some revenue (even if it wouldn't be as much as selling for TSW) while at the same time enhancing/expanding the product which you already worked a lot for and this all with the benefit of not needing to wrap your head around learning new tools.
Maybe DTG are going to see how well the Frankfurt S-Bahn does first. I would think if it does really well that they will consider doing other S-Bahn Commuter routes in other German Cities even if it is a bit more complex to make. Someone said they were originally going to do the Munich S-Bahn but changed it to Frankfurt instead ???. I guess time will tell on that one anyway.
looking forward to that Frankfurt one ... tho I prefer "REX" kind of services, S-Bahn can be nice from time to time
Desiro ML ... as cool as 4020 is from the standpoint of a railfan (the traction motor sounds are indeed cool and the acceleration is still sufficient), it is a NIGHTMARE as a passenger... it is comfy, I grant that... but as soon as the heat outside gets hot, it becomes a blazing inferno inside... last year I nearly got cooked (REX6 to Bratislava-Petržalka, so a little over an hour), and I stood in the middle of one of the carriages, so I got at least some air from the windows lol so as cool as it is, 4024 and 4744/4746 are a HUGE improvement in almost every area (not to mention that it is an accessibility nightmare as well )
I drove the ICE T on the Frankfurt to Fulda line, and it has Berlin written on it, as well as a coat of arms for Berlin (bear emblem). Could this be a hint that they might add Berlin later on?
I love the livery on that Vectron further up. I’m aware we’re getting something similar to a Stadler Eurodual in the form of the GBRf Class 99, but I am very jealous of the Vectrons scattered around Continental Europe - they would look odd with our restricted loading gauge though.
Not really. Most ICE train sets are christened after cities and regions in Germany, the ICE T was just the first ICE where DTG actually implemented it. In your case you just so happened to spawn with Tz 1108 "Berlin". The German Wikipedia article has a full list of all named ICE T, most, if not all of which are probably also featured in-game.
