1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Why The Need For A 'new' Seperate Game?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jun 22, 2020.

  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,053
    Likes Received:
    3,432
    Hello all.

    I just want to share my thoughts and opinions of TSW 2 and why I am genuinely confused about why it has been developed and exists. This isn't a hate post of any sort, just my own views and opinions.

    So, the question is,

    Why does TSW 2 exist and why did we not get a free upgrade to TSW:2020?

    DTG's own FAQ states this as its response to the question:
    upload_2020-6-22_21-31-29.png

    Notice how the answer provided avoided answering the question completely and just states what TSW 2 involves and is about.

    They say they need to "bring Train Sim World forward" - but diving deeper into that, have you realised that this is all obtainable via a free update to the current Train Sim World 2020? Because that's exactly what it is, an update to the current game.

    Now I don't mind them charging for an update, but to say TSW 2 is a completely new game is simply misleading and is a lie. Furthermore, the 'new' game will launch with exactly the same issues, bugs and limitations TSW currently has. This includes no improvements to the shadow draw rendering distance, no improvements to lighting, no improvements to audio as well as no changes to the long requested 2D map to be improved. This is just a few examples

    If you haven't realised already, this is the exact same game as TSW:2020 underneath the hood.


    Why do I think they made a seperate game?

    Personally, I think they marketed it as a separate game in order to give themselves an excuse to drop support for all TSW:2020 bugs as this would mean they are not obliged to fix any bugs relating to it anymore. It was clear the game had a tonne of small, irritable bugs which perhaps was too overwhelming for them to fix as well as not making them any money.

    I don't think it was a long term plan. More of a short term plan and they had to think what they could do the maximise revenue.


    Again, these are just my thoughts and don't necessarily account for everyone or the whole community, nor is it a hate post.


    I'd like to hear your thoughts and opinions on this and what you think of the current situation.

    Thanks for taking time to read this thread.
     
    • Like Like x 19
  2. Tay95

    Tay95 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2018
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    396
    You make a good point. I'm waiting on seeing more live streams and seeing the quality and, although very little, changes they have made
     
  3. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Messages:
    426
    Likes Received:
    698
    Well you're right about that, it's kinda clear to pretty much everyone that they could've made it as just an update if they wanted to, and the decision to make it a separate release is most likely only because of money reasons. Which is a bit of a bummer, but understandable, and all in all it wouldn't be that much of a problem if they didn't abandon exsisting routes in the process.

    I also agree with you about it probably being a new plan even to them. I don't see much sense in releasing TSW, then rebranding it to TSW2020, just to release "TSW2" a year after, instead of continuing with TSW2021 or something. As you said, it's probably just a money thing, and the best quick solution was to "hey, let's sell the game again".

    As I said, I can sort of understand it, but it's still disappointing, especially because now we will have to TSWs for no proper reason, and as I mentioned earlier, old routes will be abandoned, from what we know so far.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. seatsea

    seatsea New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    21
    With TSW, it very much feels like almost every piece of work on the game, needs to result in something with a price tag. With the exception of some overall game updates, and mastery / community goals which were setup by the web team, almost all updates to routes for fixes or improvements have come along with the release of DLC.

    Thus here's my theory, TSW was getting to the point of needing an engine update, to benefit from the new features of recent versions of UE. This obviously take a consequent amount of dev time, and thus, management required there to be a price tag on the work done. The development of the livery editor and scenario planner are obviously bundled along with this to justify it.

    Now don't get me wrong, I certainly agree that these things should have been rolled into an update for TSW 2020, a number of games provide big updates for free and rely on DLC sales to do so, DTG could have done this here.
     
  5. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    302
    Likes Received:
    551
    Nah it's a complete rebuild from scratch... so that's a new game. A new game with the same lighting, map, sound, and probably bugs. C-o-m-p-l-e-t-e-l-y new.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. ItsYa165

    ItsYa165 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2017
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    171
    TSW2 is not a completely new build. Shortly after the release of GWE, DTG upgraded the UE4 engine from .12 to .16 FOR FREE, and hardly anybody knew about it at the time. We saw downgrades in lighting across the board from there onwards. TSW2 is just another upgrade from .16 to .24 which can be done JUST AS FREE as before. They added rail adhesion and dynamic skies, and from the information give, that's literally it. DTG have not built this game from scratch, they have ported content between versions... which is completely normal but not worth any price. No trains have been remodelled, apart from maybe CSX stock, and the routes will be exactly the same. There's nothing new about it. It should be like going from Windows 7 to Windows 10, it was a free upgrade at release if you owned Windows 7. The price you pay is not for the improved engines, it's just for the routes. It's only £24.99, and yes it really complicates TSW as the franchise it now is. We needed an engine upgrade sooner or later, we just didn't get it the way we wanted to get it... a new game. TSW2 is a way to force continuing players into buying DLC to fund both the upgrade development time and effort and the DLC... since TSW1 is getting cut off, that's the reality.

    Honestly? I don't mind this. But if it wasn't for the DLC inclusion, I would be offended by the fact I'm being sold the same game for a second time. I just wish that they would be honest and say that TSW1 is dying, so here is its offspring TSW2 - you pay for the DLC and not the upgrade. upload_2020-6-22_22-55-38.png upload_2020-6-22_22-59-40.png
    Train Simulator is given the remark "TS1". Train Sim World 1 is given the remark "TS2Prototype". Train Sim World 2, I would imagine, will be given the remark "TS2". DTG needs to admit that TSW1 was a prototype as it states within itself. I don't want TSW2 to be so prototypical as TSW1 was, but I know that it's still wishful thinking.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. jagay

    jagay Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2020
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    38
    A few thoughts:

    - Upgrading to a new version of Unreal is not free. There is a large engineering cost in making a game work on a new version of an engine. It is not the same as a consumer going form Win7 to Win10, a better analogy would be replacing an engine in a car- and even if the physical engine is free, you still need to disassemble and reassemble the car, and hook up the electronics, and oh yeah, the wiring is all different now too. It's not trivial.

    - I suspect, on further reflection from my earlier post, that they chose to call this update TSW2 because a) their data format changed and they're wiping our stats and b) they thought they could get more good press by calling it a new game. On the first point, I can see how "New for 2020 we throw away your progress!" is a hard sell, but on the latter I think their choice was likely misguided. I know I'm personally disappointed, as I expect pretty much everyone reading these forums is, but at the same time we're a small minority of their market. For a typical, less engaged, consumer hearing "TWS2 with new stuff!" and seeing it appear on the Steam New Releases tab may outweigh our disdain- especially given that they're still our best option for an attractive rail sim game. I mean, I don't like their choice, but I also know I'm buying the new one anyhow, because at the end of the day I want what they are selling more then I want $25.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2019
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    308
    I've seen A LOT of confusion within these forums regarding whether or not TSW2 should be considered a new game or not. Frankly this is being made a much bigger deal than it really is.
    If there were enough changes done for DTG to call it a new title, than so be it.
    Sure, a lot of TSW 2020 code will still live and breathe within TSW2. But the original TSW is far from perfect and is plagued with tons of bugs, so I think DTG made the right call here to continue pushing forward, because- lets be honest here -this game badly needs improvements. And we're getting some of that with TSW2. I don't see any malice or wrong-doing with this. Is it unfortunate? Sure. But this was a necessary move to update things to a new title and leave the past behind.

    Its not starting fresh and it definitely should not be implied that it is. But we've seen multiple examples of this practice with many other video game franchises– and there's no faff going on there. So lets just call it what it is, and skip the confusion. TSW2 is a new game.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Ian1991

    Ian1991 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2017
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    322
    personally 25pounds for a new engine and 3routes isnt that bad imo.

    Ok so you must buy the new game to get future content, bit crap BUT again....25pounds for 3routes is a good deal to me, even if you only drive two of them.

    The reason its a totally new game is because of the engine, which allows the new features to be ready for release and also the future features to be made. Again it would of been alot easier for DTG to just release the new game/engine and say 'all your content from TSW1 is now dead and cant carry over'. Then i would be pissed, but i really dont see the huge issue to be honest. You normally pay 25 per route, so to get the three is decent.

    The editor has obviously hit a nerve with alot of people, i dont generally make content or use the workshop for any so it doesnt affect me, however people need to realise that this game/company runs to makena profit.

    If you create a brand new game (TSW2).....and your the only company using UE for a train sim, why would you want to release an editor? thats giving everybody lisence to do what they want with the game, meaning less purchases. People may not like that, but business is business. Just be greatful TS2020 has been going so openly and freely for all these years, but the future of TSW is a more premium price tag. No-one is forcing anybody to buy it, or use it. But when Ive spent around 140pounds on the base game and 5DLC.....for 25quid i can get the new version with 3dlc attached to it. Good deal to me. Again only my opinions, im not 100% train 'nerd' or whatever you want to call it, I enjoy simulation/transportation games and for me this whole this with TSW2 makes perfect sense from a business and customer point of view......why keep making buggy limited DLC, when you can upgrade for better quality and features. no brainer.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    2,031
    Likes Received:
    4,164
    It’s mainly for technical reasons. The current content is not fully compatible with the new build. That’s the headline, there’s going to be two sets of content.

    To make the distinction between the set of content that is fully compatible and the set that isn’t they’ve created a new title. They could have just left it at that and kept the two titles separate but they are doing some work to the old content to make it at least run in the new game, so players can just have the one TSW on their system rather than two.

    What they couldn’t do is update the game, keep it as TSW, and then tell you that half your current content would stop working until they’ve done some work updating it to make it run in the new build. Nobody knows yet how much of the TSW content will be useable in TSW2 at launch. There’s a lot of old content, all with different workarounds in them, all having features that are in different stages of development.

    The amount of work to update all the previous content to work with all the new features of TSW2 would probably have been too much of a task to even contemplate but they needed the new build to make progress towards everything that they and we want in the game, so having the old content useable in some form in TSW2 is a bit of a bonus really. To make the distinction between the two sets on content (one in full development and one that is too much work to keep fully developed) they’ve gone with a new game.

    The issue I think people have is that we don’t appear to be getting much that is new in the new game. There’s the new sky, adhesion, and the ability for longer trains and higher speeds, but people have expected those to come sooner and want more... steam trains, multiplayer, longer shadow draw, all at once. The new livery creator and scenario planner don’t go as far as people want. This makes it easy to think it is just another UI upgrade with slightly better this and that, and should have been a free upgrade but it appears, to me at least, that a lot more has gone into this upgrade than any upgrade to date. It acts as a building block for some more of the things we all want.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. JohnnyK98

    JohnnyK98 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2019
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    392
    stujoy hits the nail on the head.
    Basically, this is what Matt has been saying in the Q&A video.

    Quite simple to understand why they'd be moving forward with TSW2.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2018
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    840
    Until we actually see TSW2 in action, it is probably best trying not to speculate why a new game was needed. I'm sure we are all still feeling a little perplexed by the decision as previous updates for both TSxx and TSW have come to the same game, free of charge...so we'll just have to wait and see
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    245
    tsw 2 ue4.24
     
  14. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,661
    Likes Received:
    2,241
    I don’t know why people expect updates to be free. Be annoyed that the company isn’t listening to the community and delivering what they have asked for, but don’t criticise it for asking for money in exchange of something tangible. £24.99 for TSW2 is excellent value in my opinion given for me, as a PS4 user I get 3 new routes, plus the new enhancements. Single route DLC for TSW 2020 costs the same.

    I am annoyed my current content won’t be enhanced/expanded (even though I would be willing to pay for this under specific circumstances) but that’s a different issue.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  15. trainsimcz

    trainsimcz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    261
    There is only one reason why there is TSW 2 (and that reason is not money of course). They are already working on that UE4 update for more than 6 months. Can you imagine if they will update just TSW from 4.16 to 4.23 without content being ready for that ? You will loose all your DLCs until they update them too (27 DLCs will take some time to update) so everybody will be even more mad than now. So i guess they decide to release updated UE4 version named TSW 2 (to make it clear, its not new game, its the same game but updated engine - they dont start from scratch), with that situation you can still play TSW1 with all DLCs and wait until they port them into the TSW2. Of course TSW 2 got some new features which the old dlcs will dont have (that happened even with basic TSXXXX. As they are moving forward it will be always like that - new version.
    Just for info, each DLC is just a little new game inside one big core. So every DLC got own configuration (light settings, rail settings, etc...) so if there is some changes inside to core for that, than they will have to update all DLCs (all configurations inside every DLC). If they made changes with player stuff (like that camera and head sway than camera is part of the main core as its player related and it got updated everywhere.
    So after re-thinking the whole situation i think they made the right decision (just they should be more clear with that information as its not new game but only updated old game to the never engine). So you are not really paying for update, you are paying just for 2 routes which is good bundle and of course they can offer you that update for TSW 1 but that will piss you off as you will lost all DLCs until they port them... so its good option to have still TSW1, enjoy TSW1 stuff and TSW2 where they are trying to port all TSW1 stuff.
    And about that bugs problem, many routes got bugs from the beginning and they were never fixed so mostly all DLCs looks like preserved collection even in TSW1 :D
    One day when TSW will have hundreds of DLCs (yeah that will take a long time until we are there as there is still only DTG who is releasing DLCs) than when they will do update engine it can happened that you will loose all your content as it will be almost impossible for them to update all DLCs just for free to the never version (of course its up to how is the update difficult).

    The reason why im mad about this update is only because they dont keep promises:
    - where is the promised multiplayer for TSW (yeah basically TSW2 is still TSW1 but i think if they ever deliver multiplayer in TSW2 it will work only with TSW2 stuff)
    - their decision not releasing TSW tools for users
    That was the 2 main reasons why i got TSW from day 1 but that is off topic for that thread and i dont want to start discussion about that..
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. TrainSim_Fan

    TrainSim_Fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Messages:
    846
    Likes Received:
    452
    In all seriousness your getting 2/3 routes for the price of 1 and your getting new features.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  17. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2017
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    465
    I'd just like to know what these 'New Immersion features' are, I mean they said there is no dynamic weather, no graphic updates, no sounds updates, no p.i.s., we cannot port old content into new routes so the new routes are going to be dead and we cannot share created liveries/glorified quick drives. Where's the immersion in that?

    Maybe in 3yrs+ we might see a bit more immersion? but for now, I'm holding off and watching from the sidelines.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
  18. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2020
    Messages:
    773
    Likes Received:
    3,765
    I'll take a swing at this.

    TSW2 is being treated as a new game because it's the new starting point. Functionality that we've wanted to add to TSW, but has been beyond reasonable reach now becomes viable because of the base we're establishing with the new game.

    No, it won't look or sound radically different to the old base game, but 2 years from now on the new base we'll be considerably further ahead in the implementation of features than we would be if still working off the old.

    Why not just upgrade the old base for free? Because of the sheer volume of work required to refit and rework the routes and locos that have been released to date makes it impractical to do so. We need a clean slate to work off, even if the new slate looks remarkably similar to the old one.

    We could, very easily have stuck to the old codebase and simply released a normal update this year. TSW is a successful game - anyone who says otherwise is wide of the mark. Being honest about what it is and what it isn't, as we have been doing so far, is actively dissuading some players from picking it up - if we were hellbent on selling maximum copies this isn't a course of action listed under "how to sell a stack more games." That's not why we're doing this. This is the platform that allows us to go further.

    You're all perfectly entitled to decide for yourselves whether or not to pick up the new game. The old one will continue to work just as it does now. If a sale price or upgrades along the way make TSW2 more interesting to you in the future, get it then, or don't. To make the sim we want to make, that we believe you'll enjoy, changes are necessary and those changes come with a price tag attached.
     
    • Like Like x 12
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
  19. TrainSim_Fan

    TrainSim_Fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2020
    Messages:
    846
    Likes Received:
    452
    • Graphics update (a new UE4 version)
    • Adhesion Physics
    • Scenario planner
    • Livery editor
    • Bakerloo line (15 miles)
    • Köln Strausbusier Line (47 miles)
    • CSX HH (57 miles)
     
    • Like Like x 4
  20. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,053
    Likes Received:
    3,432
    I just hope it can live up to its expectations. X, y & z features were requested and in some cases promised to be coming to TSW 1 but it never materialised. Therefore I won’t expect TSW 2 to be any different.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  21. kalteVollmilch

    kalteVollmilch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    373
    I'd like to share my point of view as well:

    I'm pretty sure TSW2 is much more of a new game than what is noticeable from simply looking at the new features.
    With the release of TSW1, DTG had a massive learning curve: Create a completely new game in an engine which probably just a handful of people at the time were familiar with, create Simugraph at the same time (apparently SimuGraph is a very in-depth engine simulation and very powerful), and produce content at the same time.
    I believe Matt once stated that simply creating SPG took more than a year, than developing GWE took about 9 months (I hope I got my times correct, I'm not 100% sure). Now look at the amount of DLC which gets published per year, they pobably learned a lot and had a very steep learning curve.
    I'd also imagine, a lot of mistakes have been made during creating TSW1, requiring certain workarounds in later DLC to keep everything working. I expect these workarounds to be significant, and trying to make everything TSW1 useable in TSW2 would require an overhaul of the models (to make them compatible with the Livery Editor), and probably in a lot of cases nearly a complete remake of the route.
    One example is the substitution system: We've seen this system develope and expand more than once in TSW, with the release of the 182, which is slightly longer then a 185, requiring the system to be upgraded to substitute a loco with a longer loco.
    After this, the system got developed even further. In consequence, I'd expect more than 4 versions of the substitution system to be used in TSW1 (note, I coulb be completely wrong with this number). Porting all of these over to TSW2 would create lots of chaos, bugs, and especially, work.
    What I think has been achieved with TSW2 is a clean state of the core without the need to create more workarounds and with the ability to expand in the future without breaking everything.
    TSW1 probably was a very heavy learning experience, and I'm sure lots of mistakes have been made, which are now rectified, even if not noticeable at first glance
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  22. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2020
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    977
    So it's a new game that looks and sounds like the old one but on a clean slate not a dirty one.

    Sounds more like it's been to the local hand car wash for a £5 quick wash than back to the dealership for a full rebuild.

    Just my opinion!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  23. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,661
    Likes Received:
    2,241
    If you replace the engine in a car, the outside of the car will still look the same, but the engine inside the car will obviously be different.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  24. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,661
    Likes Received:
    2,241
    Ultimately what DTG Protagonist says is the crux of the matter.

    You either choose to buy it or don’t. You are not being forced to buy it. No one is holding a gun to your head.

    Watch all the upcoming live streams and if you like what you see, go for it. If you hate it, don’t. No harm. No foul.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  25. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2020
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    977
    At no point have I said I am being forced to buy anything, either at gun point or otherwise. I am purely giving my opinion, doesn't mean it's wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
  26. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Messages:
    1,661
    Likes Received:
    2,241
    I wasn’t accusing anyone of saying anything. I was just stating something generally. That ultimately no one is obliged to buy TSW2.
     
  27. seatsea

    seatsea New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    21
    No one is obliged to buy, indeed. However, a lot of people are expressing their frustrations because they care about TSW, and the way they seeing it being worked on is not up to their expectations.
    Simply telling people they don't have to buy the game isn't really solving their problems.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  28. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    542
    Likes Received:
    511
    Now this all sounds pretty reasonable, however I then read
    and wonder how this is going to impact the new TSW2 DLC. We're told TSW2 establishes a new base but apparently needs yet another engine upgrade as well as a SimuGraph® upgrade which presumably will establish yet another new base. Presumably TSW2 DLC will be built such that they require the bare minumum conversiion work? I recall somebody from DTG (Matt?) mentioning that all DLC need to be regression tested and modified whenever there's an engine upgrade.

    It's interesting that on the one hand we're told TSW2 won't sound radically different but on the other hand told that sound recreation is very important. Is sound recreation just important for steam engines?
    Presumably
    and possibly also
     
    • Like Like x 2
  29. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    245
    as a Pc user I get 2 new routes £24.99 for TSW2 is excellent
     
  30. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,427
    Likes Received:
    1,281
    Just to clarify, DTG are a business and must make money, however they can. Im questioning their antics over the last 2 years. From forum responses to live streams.
    Xbox game pass. If TSW was a free upgrade. You wouldnt have to pay the £24.99 and DTG would continue to take their gamepass cut like the other developers. Also we have Xbox game pass owners using 2020 dlc. Now if DTG create a new game. A percentage of gamepass users hopefully will translate into £24.99 purchases, and those that remain, would still be paying a subscription. Add to the list that there will be more inclination to buy new dlc as your new shiny TSW2 will have sparse levels of traffic on it, for all platforms.
    How do you entice the console crowd? Offer them a livery/scenario editor, but make it fair,you dont want xbox game pass owners jumping to PC/PS4/PS5. So no sharing because you cant on xbox.
    The PC happens to have the same edit mode, purely because it exists and can be implemented.
    Without this edit mode idea for console sales. We wouldnt have an editor at all, and it would still be something "in progress" Ive no doubt.
    I hate being this sceptical, but when I feel messed about. Im not going to be too positive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  31. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    464
    The train sim community needs it's own version of this: https://www.nmra.org/index-nmra-standards-and-recommended-practices

    Model railways hit a period similar to this before standards were drawn up.

    The danger of TS and TSW as they currently sit is that they can just disappear at the whim of the firm in control. People lose beloved collections that they have taken years to build.

    If this truly is to become a serious hobby, it needs to have leadership and direction that shows it's a serious hobby.
     
  32. rwaday

    rwaday Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    82
    Your argument does not apply, in model railway parlance it would be like using Z gauge with O gauge. Both are using NMRA specifications but are not compatible.
     
  33. Jannerdunk

    Jannerdunk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    256
    It's hard to disagree that £25 for two new routes it good value, but that is not the issue.

    The issue is the £500 worth of content that without any warning has been abandoned. Content, which was purchased on the expectation that it would be fully functional and compatible with the TSW franchise for many years to come including the editor. DTG obviously have known about this for a while, development on TSW2 must have been going on for months, yet they have been happy to let us buy the existing DLC. Don't forget their own marketing material (with phrases like "digital hobby" and "build your collection") claims this is more than a throw away game that everyone plays for a few months and then never touches again.

    When TSW was first announced, everyone was upset that the old TS content would not work with the game. Myself, like most, understood, with the new unreal engine, why this was not possible and accepted the situation. We were more than happy to invest and buy into the new game for the long term. Little did we know that the content would be abandoned so soon, that's why I cannot help feeling slightly cheated.

    I've lost trust in DTG, who's to say that in a couple years of time we won't be on TSW3 or 4 with even more DLC consigned to the "preserved collection". In terms of updates to the core game, it seems initially that little will change with TSW2, a token livery editor and a quick drive facility. Mainly more promises that the new core will allow them develop for the future, Well isn't that what was said when the original TSW was released?

    It's also been clear for a while that the game has been taking a more arcade feel and style, with its mastery badges and collectables and has been moving away from true simulator.

    That's why, after spending more than I care to admit on both TS (since the railworks days) and TSW, I will not be buying TSW2.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  34. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    464
    It really can apply here. It would only benefit you, so why would you object to it?

    There are many ways this could be implemented.

    Why object to something that is currently undefined?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
  35. rwaday

    rwaday Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    82
    You can't make all video games compatible, can you. Can you make all the weapons available to use in all games? The same applies here. Nice idea but impractical. You are not understanding my position, I am not against it, it's that there is no way all developers would sit down at a long table and discuss this. If you had a working knowledge of gaming programming you would see this. This is why TS2020 can not be incorporated into TSW. All games have proprietary source codes that are highly guarded and will not be shared.
     
  36. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    464
    I appreciate that it may be difficult to organise and implement, but right now we're all sitting on throwaway collections. What can we do about that?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  37. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2020
    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    977
    A nice idea, however in this case the only developer that needs to get around the table is DTG as they seem to be the major player in the Train Simulation world.

    And it's they who are creating or deciding what is compatible and what isn't.

    Until there is another mainstream developer who has the means, both financial and technical to compete, DTG pretty much has a monopoly.

    Therefore, for the time being if you want a mainstream train simulator with a large variety of routes and locos, it's DTG's way or no way. There is no comparable alternative.

    And before the usual suspects come along and say no one is forcing you to buy anything, please re read the above paragraph.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  38. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    464
    If someone had the financial backing and could secure rights to the Kuju engine, that could be the base framework for the open standard.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  39. ASRGT

    ASRGT Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    332
    And your base engine is already out dated and will provided a compromised experience when compared with more mature offerings in the marketplace that already provided cross platform compatibility out of the box. If you want an open source game engine there are hundreds already Spring Engine, Panda3d, Godot even id Tech 4 is open source these days. There is of course a catch here however, while any person or company can sell a product based on these , they must make the source code public and for most business given away your IP is just not an attractive idea.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  40. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    464
    Yeah, the commercials don't currently stack up, but that's just another obstacle to overcome. I'm thinking more along the lines of Blender vs Autodesk. There are a lot of very talented coders knocking about, which would no doubt come together and smash that old engine into something incredible just for the sheer hell of it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
  41. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2020
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    82
    A thought to consider; I've not seen this angle discussed previously:

    If you take all of us who have posted on just this thread alone, I'd bet a big pile of cash that no two of us are running the same kit. If you take into account not only hardware, but drivers and update status of the OS, the task of making software run free of glitches becomes a tall order indeed. In the enterprise environment, a system administrator purchases identical "corporate stable" builds for this very reason. The fact that there are so few major glitches in TSW (in my book that means bugs that cause a hard crash) deserves kudos.

    I can live with particle rendering passing through "solid" objects. It's when a simulated 100,000 tonnes of steel stops like a Mazda Miata... that makes me shake my head for sure, and reduces my opinion of the software from very good to not-so-good.

    Just my $0.02 worth...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  42. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes Received:
    1,858
    Because updates have always have been annually incremental and free. How’s that for you?

    It’s simple to me. The £25 isn’t a rip off as you’re getting 2 routes with it (I won’t ever count SPG because anyone who owns the game on PC already has it. Maybe they’ve made it work how it should have worked 3 years ago but nothing more) but it allows DTG to walk away from the storm of bugs, broken content and missing features that was TSW and never look back, should they choose not to.

    Clearly sorting out TSW content to work in TSW2 can’t be that hard, otherwise they wouldn’t have moved Sand Patch Grade across. I’d hazard a guess that they’ve picked that route alone because it was an easy win for the console market. PC players and people who’ve been there since the beta (stop laughing) of this game are getting stuffed again.

    Finally as it stands, bar the engine upgrade, TSW2 is essentially no different to TSW. To suggest that 3 years into a flagship train simulator we’re all supposed to be somehow excited by variable adhesion is laughable. It’s welcome, but a bit late to the party. In addition, the livery editor and scenario creator are essentially useless. I couldn’t even begin to reskin a train, but there are many people out there who are excellent at it and who enjoy creating. Those reskins could be used with the scenario creator and suddenly things look good. Except you can only reskin a tube train, an ICE3 and some American stuff that’s already been reskinned to death, because NOTHING else can be touched as it’s been consigned to history. Even if you could do anything with that content, you can’t share those creations so as I said, a pretty pointless addition in its current guise.

    Whether that changes going forward we’ll see, but those expecting a bug & problem free new dawn with TSW2 are kidding themselves.

    [edit by Protagonist - watch the language]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2020
    • Like Like x 6
  43. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2019
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    211
    Sorry, but this still does not explain why it still needs to be a new game entirely. The core features could still be a free update to the existing game, and the old stuff could still be condemned to the "preserved collection" if it truly was just more work than it was worth to go back and update them. Dovetail would still look like they don't stand by their work, but at least existing customers wouldn't be getting shafted by needing to pay for an engine update containing at least one feature which really should have been there since the very beginning (wheel slip), and a whole bunch more promises which are impossible to believe at the current time. You'd still have your clean slate, and it still wouldn't be a great look since people would still technically need to pay for new content to get these new features, but at least it wouldn't be as scummy since it would still just be an update to the same game. This may have saved me as a customer, personally speaking. A reluctant one, just as before, but a customer nonetheless.

    Ideally, you lot could eventually bring the old content up to spec for free, but I guess that is too much to ask... even though you charge $30 for routes and $20 for individual locomotives... ideally you'd stick by those fairly expensive (especially over time) products. Even with the news that there are no plans for a public editor at this time, which makes me seriously question if UE was the correct choice of engine, knowing that Dovetail sticks by their products would have made me much more willing to spend money with you. At least we could count on the company to resolve issues with their addons, and would not need to continue waiting for the community to be able to do so.

    I suppose the main concern with sticking to the same game would be saved games, and how the dev team had difficulty with this aspect. I can understand why you would not want to force people to start fresh, but I mean... there really isn't much to start fresh from again. Nothing would need to be unlocked again. Stats would be wiped clean, including collectables, but they have exactly zero impact on the game anyway. It would kinda suck, especially since it can take a few hours minimum to clear the collectables in a route, but personally speaking at least, I'd prefer to have to find them again rather than need to pony up cash for an engine update, which only amounts to a handful of pretty basic features for now, and a whole bunch more promises for the future... and you know how hard it is to believe in those promises.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  44. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    2,031
    Likes Received:
    4,164
    I’ve only quoted the start of your post to save space. What you’ve said in your post explains exactly why it has to be a new game. You can’t just suddenly do an update to an existing game that wipes all the progress so far and expect anybody to accept that. There would be uproar and quite rightly too. The process of upgrading everything has the potential to break some stuff along the way too. I get the feeling that you just don’t want to pay for it, but you go further by expecting everything to be upgraded to the new standard, which is an awful lot of work to expect to be done for free.

    You have to admit that certain aspects of TSW are broken and there are many little quirks that show how a lot of it is based on workarounds and adaptation of some wonky code. There are obvious differences between different building methods of routes. There’s a lot that needs standardising and I think that’s what a lot of the work has been about plus the extra benefits of a later version of the game engine. It needs to be new title to enable starting at this point of major change without affecting the older content and, despite the disappointments associated with the further development of older content, the opening offer for TSW2 is good value for money. Some extra value may come from improvements we see in the routes that come at and after release. Only time will tell of course but having to pay for it isn’t a big deal, as it’s the price of one route and you potentially get so much more.
     
  45. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2019
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    211
    You are right, I do not want to pay for this new game. We are hearing the same promises for the future that we heard the first time around. I feel like Dovetail failed to deliver with TSW1, and now (especially with CSX:HH), they are asking us to buy the game again to get what it should have been from the beginning, and what the community has been asking for. It would be one thing if they sold an extension to that route, that would be fair. Selling something as fundamental to a train simulator as wheel slip and wagon weight though? Those are two things that people rightly criticized the game for in 2017, because those are things you’d just expect to be there. Not things you’d expect to pay for later. What next, will TSW3 (re)introduce animated crossing gates for $30?

    Sure, I have the capacity to understand why an engine upgrade is needed. I was hoping for it actually. What I don’t have is sympathy for Dovetail. In my view, they are not only a company which has failed to deliver, but are also one of the most anti consumer companies out there on top of it. If they dug themselves into a hole of spaghetti code with TSW1, I’m not going to be the one to bail them out of it with cash when the up front return is so low, and especially since I feel cheated as a customer on top of that. As for promises of future improvements... well, haven’t we already heard this before, with TSW1? Nah, I am not going to risk being fooled again.

    This is the only valid point IMO. Still though, I don’t see how this is much better. People who want to keep getting new content are forced to start fresh anyway. Does anyone really want to continue playing TSW1 because they don’t want to lose their stats?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  46. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2019
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    211
    I also feel it is prudent to point out that on top of the astronomical cost to own all of the content for this game, they continued to sell new content with full knowledge that it would not be supported in the near future. The new BR loco and M3 really need updates, but will never receive them. Dovetail kept this info close to their chest until the last couple of months though, so people wouldn’t feel discouraged from buying stuff. This is another good reason I feel cheated as a consumer.

    And before anyone counters my statement about the astronomical costs by saying that you are only supposed to buy what you want, please take the time to think before commenting about if you have ever told someone “just buy the newer routes, they are better” when they talk about how bad NEC is, for example.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  47. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2020
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    82
    NEC was recently "on sale" for a paltry sum, so I figured, "what the heck." Now, I'm asking "what the heck?!?" I could not care less about virtual "tree branches" coming through the virtual cab, or virtual "smoke" passing through virtual "concrete." I do, however, care about a virtual consist of two locomotives hauling fifteen fully laden cars coming to a screaming stop when "Initial Reduction" is applied from a mere fifteen mph. It sorta makes me wonder (as I get deeper into each DLC) how many more weird physics glitches I'm going to discover.

    Visual glitches are - at worst - annoying and at best somewhat amusing. Physics glitches will have me walking away from the sim entirely.
     
  48. xpert2036

    xpert2036 Guest

    I don't really mind the new game because I am a console user I get 3 new route's for $30.The con is that there isn't any form of the editor for TSW1 content. But I hope with the new routes we could get all the trains that are run by the route lets say LIRR we should be getting the M7,Dm30ac,Mp15ac,M3,C3 cabcar These are all the train on the LIRR irl,In TSW we only have the M3,M7.So please can you guy's not add half of the rolling stock on the route at least add 3 train's on the route with the cab car if there is one instead of having us pay for it.I don't mind paying for the add ons but It's annoying that we have too wait for that one add on to come instead of adding it for the route.The M3 took almost 2 years to get to the LIRR rout in TSW. My point is why do we have too have 1 train on the route let's get 3 of the trains if were paying for $30 worth a route
     

Share This Page