Why Tsw 2's Rush Hour Routes Not Getting Tsw 3 Features Is A Missed Opportunity - Please Reconsider

So, it's fair to say that the announcement of TSW 3 has brought both excitement and a large amount of frustration, simultaneously!

But, the issue I'm most disheartened with regards what was mentioned in the preservation crew update from the TSW 3 part 1 roadmap that TSW 2 routes and locos that have been released will NOT be redone with TSW 3 features. While I can understand this is totally unrealistic for every route that we have, why on earth are the relatively recent Rush Hour routes from TSW 2 left out of this - all the while Spirit of Steam will be getting such features...

I ask DTG to consider at least bringing TSW 3 features to London Commuter, Riesa-Dresden and Boston Sprinter.

Why you ask? While Rush Hour had its flaws, these trio of routes set a major milestone for TSW overall with the likes of epic timetables never seen before (or since), and more, namely London Commuter - I'm sure many would agree with me that I'd never in a million years thought of there being a route with 1000+ services.

Additionally, the Rush Hour routes have a plethora of DLC opportunity, so if any loco DLC was released, these could be used featuring the brand-new TSW 3 features. After all, updating older routes brings new life and potentially more refreshing gameplay as seen previously on certain routes (WSR for example).

Add the fact that ironically Rush Hour is only just reaching a year old, yet TSW 3 features are not going to be implemented!? For context, since London Commuter has been released, I've only just managed to reach 400 completed services, so my future time in TSW will still firmly be staying in Rush Hour routes for the foreseeable.

So what happens with the Rush Hour routes in general, would we have to potentially wait for any possible route expansions (like SEHS) to get the new TSW 3 features eventually or what...?

Would love to know everyone's thoughts on this, and do you think at least the three Rush Hour routes should receive the TSW 3 features like what SOS is getting?

Apologies for having another TSW 3 thread, but I thought this was important to discuss.

 

I'm tempted to read "will not be" as "no plans to". A route with enough popularity that gets enough demand, where the project seems viable, might change minds.

But to put words in DTG's mouth from a famous movie: "That's not what's worrying me. It's how to do it. These things must be done delicately." If it's too much work to give away free, but the alternative is charging for enhancements to preexisting routes, that's a tricky line to walk. They could charge less, but then why choose to rehash a route for less profit when they can do one that's new & fresh and that can be sold at full price. Will they want to deal with this? Would you?

Related to the above question, it's also possible that they already have different but similar routes already in mind to get the full TSW3 treatment.

 

I agree. Personally, I'm in the boat that all the routes should get the TSW 3 features eventually. As you said, it might be unrealistic, but I think have continued support for older routes is well worth the investment to keep it up to date. The reason we have needed such big preservation crew updates up until this point is because of a lack of continued updates to the routes. Had this have happened, there would've been times where bigger updates would be required to bring bigger features over, but still would've been much smaller to what we saw in some of the bigger updates like GWE's update. I also think the continued updates to the routes help keep them fresh and give players a lot of incentives to go back to them. Also, more importantly, I think it helps provide more value to new buyers who don't own said routes already, compared to having the much newer routes with more features make older routes look bad for lacking said features. I just think it's a huge mistake DTG are making here in not continuing the support for all the routes.

I also understand that as the TSW library increases, the work will continue to grow too. This is why, at least for locos, the many different versions of one loco need to be combined into one version, with liveries/model changes where appropriate still using the one version. This would mean future releases that improve locos would also improve it for other routes as well, which would definitely decrease the workload of improving older content. I know parts of this might seem unrealistic, but I think keeping these older routes updated is crucial to keeping these routes fresh, interesting and having people want to both play and buy these routes. But that's just my opinions on things.

 

I'd be happy just to see working in cab signalling in BS, optimisation for DRA. You know the things we were promised, but seems like no longer on the radar, especially as it seems the PC are being tasked with other priorities once the current updates are completed

 

I suppose, as well, all new routes won’t be compatible with TSW2. I am disappointed that the tutorials in future will be on the fictitious training centre and not on the actual route.

 

Maybe they go down the "New Journeys" route again, when they did the Köln - Aachen timetable boundled with the expansion?

What I mean is, that, if they have an idea for a dlc that at the same time upgrades and old route, they might do it.

And to be honest, if each of these old TS2 routes get a loco DLC that at the same time brings the route up to TSW3 features, I'd happily get them all.

 

PC seems to be dissolved once the current TSW2 updates are complete

I would imagine NO new routes will be TSW2 released... No reason for them to be unless people want to continue paying for TSW2 when it's getting no development...
And not sure why it makes much difference where the "how to make trains go" is. Given all you do is start, coast, stop at a platform etc there's plenty of opportunity to do that on a live route in timetable and scenario modes... IRL you would only ever learn how to move the train on a simulator and in a limited fashion "in depot". As I was once told "there are no learner trains"

 

Does the Londom Commuter already have Rush Hours passengers? Afaik no....
So, it would be great if rush hours routes would atleast get the promised rush hour features.... almost one year later.

 

It has the Rush Hour variation (as in different coloured clothes) but not the rush hour quantity of passengers.
Of course the passenger glitch would mean they all get off at the first station anyway...

 

I completely agree with this, and was a little surprised when I read that no TSW2 route (excluding SOS) would get the TSW3 features. London Commuter is one of TSW2’s most special routes, so I really expected it to receive the TSW3 treatment. Some could argue that London Commuter is just as significant as SOS, in which case it would make complete sense to add the TSW3 features to the Rush Hour routes, especially London Commuter.

On the other hand though, it could also be a case of performance issues. The TSW3 weather features obviously use more memory, meaning it could make the Rush Hour routes even more unstable, which may be why they’re reluctant to do it.

I really do hope DTG rethink this, as it just creates so much inconstancy in the TSW franchise, and all this just seems a bit lazy to me.

 

Agree with the op. I'd very much like to see the Rush Hour routes updated to full TSW3 standards.

 

I concur, the three Rush Hour routes should get the full update...and personally I don't mind paying a 'New Journey's' price to get it.

 

Calm down! Let's first find out how much an improvement have been made before going all mad and *demand* for those changes on older routes.

 

DTG have already said that the old routes have had no changes bar dynamic weather, so no lighting or any other changes

 

It makes sense that Spirit of Steam is getting the upgrades, it's very clear it was developed alongside TSW3 but I definitely agree with you that Rush Hour at least should get the enhancements too. I hold hope that at least Brighton Mainline and Riesa - Dresden will get the SEHS treatment at some point.

Brighton Mainline could be rereleased with an extension to London Bridge, maybe throw in a 700 if they can sort out the memory issues on route with work done to improve scenery.

Riesa - Dresden extension to Leipzig already exists in TS Classic, bring this over to TSW3 with the ICE T.

These are two of the best routes ever made for Train Sim World, it would be shame for them to not see a TSW3 facelift.

 

Well, Matt did say in the stream last night that to do these upgraded would require the routes to be reworked almost from the ground up to get these TSW3 features into them. Now, I would sure be willing to pay for the Rush Hour routes again if they were reworked and even extended some like noted above.

 

The new corrected lighting should be patched into all recent routes, they are borderline unplayable with the current terrible TSW2 lighting and i fear they might even look worse then they currently do if only dynamic weather is added.

 

I would happily buy reworked, double-length U.S. freight routes, especially if they included more of the epic, multi-part Journeys that Clinchfield gave us. But I imagine DTG would have asked themselves up front whether there's any scenario where time spent redoing old routes will be as profitable as creating new ones, and I can't think of one myself.

They can see the playing numbers, so if it turns out that a whole lot of people spend a whole lot of time playing the new SEHS, then they might reevaluate and upgrade another of the most popular routes as a tryout. Never say never.

 

Thought, will less effort than doing a new extensions on a route, how about combining East Coastway and Brighton London by opening the connector that runs from Lewes to the BML. That way we could run the London trains that head that way, it opens up more freight opportunities and creates a very long route.

 

By not updating older routes, DTG are actually putting people off buying items because if they hold off they might make a better version with more features in the future for another fee. Why buy now when you can buy later and get a better version. If you want to pay twice then fine but if you only want to pay once you either wait or get stuck with an inferior version.

Also, I mean RH was last summer so its a TSW2 route, but it isn't old at all. I do think they should upgrade the more recent routes. The highspeed ones from TSW like LGV HMA as well like SKA got an upgrade. Mind you, they only recently did that upgrade to SKA and now it isn't getting these upgrades, which is my point really. The line of new features is constantly moving and the pres crew should get bigger and more resourced rather than less so.

 

I do believe it's a missed opportunity for the Rush Hour routes not to get all the new features that's coming with TSW3.

 

That’s the thing though, we ARE only paying once. You’re basically asking them to devote time and money to update all the old routes to the TSW3 level, which they have explained is basically from scratch, with no way to recoup those costs.

Half the complaints on this forum have been people not wanting to pay for SEHS again even with the route length almost doubled and an entire new timetable! The other half of the complaints are people screaming that DTG are “forcing” us to pay for updates…. but people in this thread want to pay for updates!!

DTG can never win.

 

"The food here is terrible!
"Yes, and such small portions."

(ancient Jewish joke)

 

Maybe offer a 'new journeys expansion pack' type deal?

If the new lighting and dynamic weather / conditions / adhesion stuff turns out as amazing as DTG tell us it is, i'd be happy to pay for an upgraded version of routes i already own... as long as it's on a per route basis and priced fairly... i bought new journeys but only use 1/3rd of the content from it as i like German trains only.

I have no interest in TSW3 as it is today, as none of the routes offered interest me, but if i could get the routes i do like from TSW2 brought upto the latest standards, then i would buy it.

Those routes / trains being the German S-bahn and RegionalBahn stuff. (actually... i might have been tempted by a high speed German route if it was set in the 70's, 80's or 90's, and the loco was the BR103, tootling along at ~200km/h in one of those would be much more fun, having to keep adjusting the notch / tap changer wheel to keep to speed etc (can't recall if they got their AFB reinstated after the one that ran away when testing it)

 

I just want to say that I'm glad to see others who also support this suggestion! I hope it raises the concern that just leaving behind the flagship rush hour routes from TSW 2 is completely illogical - just why? Considering they're hardly a year old, and the amount of work and effort that went into their creation at the time. I know DTG have said that it would require a huge amount of work to get TSW 2 routes with the new TSW 3 features, but surely this would be worth the time and effort regarding Rush Hour routes, due to their popularity and huge, amazing timetables - even if it means waiting a longer time for these to be done.

I'm not a fan at all of this new training centre if I'm honest, seems like there has and will continue to be lots of time dedicated to it - I'd rather them either focus on improving/upgrading older routes, or dedicating time for creation of actual realistic routes.

Indeed! Regarding TSW 2's Rush Hour routes, the Thameslink Class 700 and Amtrak's Acela for London Commuter and Boston Sprinter, respectively are ideal loco DLC opportunities - and ones that have been highly requested in the suggestion forums.

As much as I'd love the extension to London Bridge for London Commuter, I think adding it to that particular route would be a bit too far memory-wise with Southern, Thameslink, plus the amount of Southeastern AI services alone here, I think it would be too much to handle; If anything, I'd prefer a route extension to connect with East Coastway. Also, regarding the 700 for London Commuter, I agree, this loco is an absolute must if possible.

Absolutely agreed! How on earth these are just being left just doesn't make any sense, at all, considering the hype last year, plus the staggered releases for the RH routes and the amount of work that went into them! They are the flagship routes of TSW - despite the new routes for TSW 3.

Fingers crossed this would be the case. Regarding myself, I hardly play SEHS compared with London Commuter or ECW, but with this new extension and timetable, I expect SEHS will be my most played route alongside London Commuter going forward.

Connecting London Commuter and ECW makes a lot of sense logically - plus the connector is only 9 miles of countryside and two stations between Wivelsfield and Lewes. One of the biggest positives of such extension would be giving the ECW part of the route a much-needed upgrade (such as finally seeing the addition of London-Eastbourne/Ore services that go via Lewes, which were missing in the original ECW timetable mode in TSW, as well as the upgraded 377 etc). Plus, as you say, more freight action too which would be great.

 

Just to add, if new TSW 3 routes in the future have rolling stock that is suitable for older routes, could these be layered onto previous TSW 2 routes? Here I'm primarily thinking of Thameslink for London Commuter or the Acela for Boston Sprinter.

If you're not going to give TSW 2 routes (except SOS) an upgrade to TSW 3 features, then at least make future DLC layable onto older TSW 2 routes - at least Rush Hour examples - to make up for this!

Though, that begs the question, will/can older TSW 2 routes be layered from TSW 3 loco DLC? Or is this only going to be available now via any possible future route extensions?

 

Personally for me, tsw2 is riddled with bugs, it needed a core update. I think bring over what we have how we have it and focus on new and hopefully working stuff.

i don't get why loads want to keep tying up the devs on old
Routes we have hundreds of hours on when they can be working on something new and hopefully higher quality for you (and yes time will tell on the new qa process)

 

This makes zero commercial sense whatsoever. Where do you draw the line in the sand?

Are we going to be six years down the line and people still saying this should be retrofitted?

Does Ford bring you a new engine and retrofit two years after you bought a car?

Has your housebuilder retrofitted equipment they put into new builds for free?

Has your gardener whose work you paid for come back and done another job for free?

Would you complete a big job for someone and pop back to two years later for free?




We all know there are issues with tsw2 but this mentality they should support legacy stock until the end of time is ridiculous at heart.
Yes they should tidy up on the promises of the past but let's be implicitly clear they're not going to keep flogging the London to reading route to death for another 18 years because it's WCML .

DTG are a business , not a reflective retrofitting charity. Anything the preservation crew deliver is a luxury not an entitlement

Likewise, they won't be bringing out dlc for a game they have moved forward from. Tsw3 is replacing 2. It's not there to parallel develop so get over it. You can almost guarantee once all pres updates are completed tsw2 dev will minimal if at all.

This intention is evident they are aiming to cash in (being a business not charity) by moving routes and releasing preserved updates on tsw3 first.
If they release them into 2 first it will impact sales

 

I personally don’t expect them to support every single old route until the end of time. That’s unrealistic for a company of DTG’s size. If they were the size of say Microsoft or Sony with their massive budgets and dev teams, I’d be of a different mind.

I’m just hoping Brighton Mainline and Riesa - Dresden get the SEHS treatment at some point in the future, that’s it. Not really expecting anything, it’s just more of a wish list thing

The bare minimum I expect of TSW2020 & TSW2 content support is that they remain in a playable state, which seems to be what DTG are going for with the additional bonus of dynamic weather added into in service mode.

 

Spot on Chief.
The forums are full of members who demand perfection for peanuts.

While not wealthy I'm willing to pay for quality and would be happy to buy old routes that have been revisited and upgraded.
Not all routes are equal and I find there routes I never play or want to.
(I'm looking at you Cane Creek).

DTG should consider revisiting popular older routes.

 

I guarantee TSW3 will also be riddled with bugs...

 

...only questions is: Will it be the same bugs we had in TSW2 or new issues specific to TSW3?

 

"Perfection"
"peanuts"

"Perfection" -> A game thats not half broken and not full of bugs in every aspect like performance or sound or saving
"Peanuts" -> Spending hundred of $ on a Game and its DLC's while you also spend hundreds of $ on the previous game and its DLC from the same company

 

these aren't individual jobs, the TSW franchise is meant to be an ecosystem that works together. These periodic jumps between incompatible versions completely ruin that though. Backwards compatibility is important and as the console manufacturers have gone through the generations this has only improved because they realised people still want to be able to play older versions on the current hardware. TSC has a wealth of content from over a decade of releases that you can mix and match together in the latest game engine, this is how TSW needs to be otherwise TSC may well outlive it.

 

It is backwards compatible. All TSW2 routes will work in TSW3, they just won’t be upgraded with brand new features.

The preservation crew struggled to keep things up to date as more things were continuously added to the game, simultaneously increasing the amount of work each route needs AND adding an extra route to upgrade into the future.

 

What "latest game engine"?
The reason all the old DLC works is because they've done nothing with the main engine since 2016. Even when they went to 64 bit they literally just rebaked the code rather than change anything, because when they change things old stuff stops working

Part of the reason we lost the American route from TSW1 was because they coded themselves into a corner with it, and when they changed the engine it stopped working, and they would have to spend an entire dev cycle remaking it to work in TSW2, same would have been the case with TSC

 

And this is why I have constantly said that the preservation crew needs to increase as time goes by because each year you have x new content but the existing content increases by x each year.

If people think it is just a nice extra then I am a bit surprised really, there is so much lost potential in this franchise from small thinking and taking things one step at a time instead of looking at a bigger picture. Each of these small features and incremental improvements are nice but it is the sum total of them across many routes and trains that makes the whole thing pop. Having different levels of fidelity, functionality etc is just frustrating and off-putting, like several versions of the same train or features that only exist on one route.

 

This is something I hope DTG really learn at a fundamental level. They've made many improvements over the years, and continue to do so, but a lot of them are 'fire and forget'. Like that spectacular lighting in Reisa-Dresden, they invest so much time in creating a wow moment - only to abandon it for future DLC. It all seems very wasteful and lacking strategic vision.

Another example - the oft remarked tendency for some objective markers to be 2 feet from a red light and others more sensibly placed, like it's down to the individual team member who coded that particular marker rather than to some specific ruleset that tells them where it should be placed.

I've said before that they really need a 'checklist of minimums' of some sort - an expanding/evolving list of things that must be in every route. As they develop something new, it gets added to the list and the older one removed. That would 'make the whole thing pop', to quote Mr JMB above.

DTG - please learn this lesson. And I really do think the Training Centre is a good step in that direction - i.e. disassociating locos from routes.

 

The way that when playing with engine.ini files to get one DLC working great, then needing totally different settings for the next DLC you try, seems to point to totally different teams working on each DLC??

that may explain why we occasionally get some amazing things in one DLC that are never seen in others.

You just need to look at the button mapping for the raildriver to see that there is no 'check list' or even communication between the different people that must be programming it, as even different versions of the same train (BR423) have their buttons in totally different places, and some versions of the same train have some switches accessible by the buttons, whilst others don't and have different switches available on the buttons.

Hell they can't even decide on where to put the PZB buttons for German trains, the 3 switches that every German train has yet they are placed in different locations on a per train basis.

 

1) When a customer purchases TSW3, in whatever form, that customer will automatically get free TSW3 versions of their existing DLCs. These are separate files from the old TSW2 versions, which can be deleted unless you want to keep playing TSW2. No different from the 'preserved collection' carryforward of TSW1/2020 DLC two years ago.

2) Layers have to be built into a route. This is done when the route is made, so ordinarily there is, necessarily, no provision for trains that don't yet exist. In a couple of cases Adam's team have, as part of a route update, constructed layers for additional trains, but this has to be done on a case by case basis - essentially, a new timetable is built - and isn't the sort of thing that just magically happens if a new loco DLC is introduced. (Note that this is not the same as simple substitution, using a new train on an older train's timetable).

 

I fully agree that consistency is key going forward. Over the years I've also noticed differences between routes, and while you cite a good example regarding object markers, perhaps one, if not, the most frustrating inconsistencies for me is with Scenario Planner.

On some routes, like GWE, nearly every platform at Paddington can be used for example, plus generally throughout the route too, and is fantastic for scenario planner - which really made me enjoy the route more than timetable mode alone. Compare this to East Coastway's scenario planner option, which go back since the route's release years back, still has only a couple platforms available at Brighton, while at Lewes no platform 5 is available (despite being used in timetable mode) nor can platforms 1 and 2 be used for passenger services as they're only available as a path to Newhaven Aggregates (platforms 1 and 2 at Lewes are used by London services in real-life).

Exactly the reason why at least the Rush Hour routes should get upgraded with the full TSW 3 features - they were and still are the flagship routes of TSW. As I said in the opening post, they had put so much effort into those specific routes, creating as you say 'wow moments' with timetables and the like never previously seen in TSW, only to be left with no TSW 3 features, after not even a year since release because it will take too much time to implement... So frustrating!

 

There is an extension of TSW3, then the next step is to see the extension of DTG's route for TSW2.