Will Dtg Ever Go 'international?'

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by paintbrushguy, Aug 20, 2022.

  1. Kevinsim1046

    Kevinsim1046 Active Member

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    My 2 cents on this, DTG do NOT know the market at all. How can you possibly know what your market is when all you release is US, DE, UK….how do you know that a Netherlands route won’t sell just as good? Or maybe an Australian route if you never actually release one?

    I see so many people on the forums asking for other countries, I’m from South Africa and I would love a Netherlands route, or an Australian route, or just somewhere other than the standard 3. I’m so board of it that I have stopped buying from DTG altogether. Not preordering TSW3. I’m just sick of it and all the excuses that constantly get repeated like a broken record. I wish more people in the community would start taking an actual stand, I see so many complain Over and over again, but yet keep coming back…why? If more people take a stand and so no, you force DTG to listen to you, the customer.

    Where I can see DTG comparing sales to see how international routes do is to see how 3rd party routes sell on TSC. The main issue with this is DTG release a high quality UK, DE, US route as they have the resources to do so. So you get pretty good quality, good sound, good marketing. Then a small 2 or 3 man show from South Africa or somewhere else decide to make a route, the quality is rubbish, the sounds rubbish, the marketing by both the 3rd party and DTG…rubbish, then DTG turn around and say, you see, international routes don’t sell as well…well duh! Of course not! How can it when you comparing crème brûlée with a prune!

    DTG need to buckle up, take a few risks, and give international a try! As Bill Gates once said: “To win big, you sometimes have to take big risks.”
     
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  2. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    I agree and if they want to do International the developers will tried to do it this way use an existing station in game that has an International railway line like Dresden Hbf the northern end point of Hauptstrecke Dresden Bodenbach Prag. Duisburg Hbf starting point of Hollandstrecke Duisburg Utrecht if merged with HRR Hollandstrecke Duisburg/Bochum-Utrecht. Schnellfahrstrecke Köln Aachen gets extended to Belgium as Schnellfahrstrecke Köln Lüttich (Liege). Sleeper train uses L37 Aachen Liege Ronheider Rampe.
     
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  3. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Now all DTG needs is someone crazy enough to risk this bum to goto north korea and ask kim dung wang his permission to use there country as a TSW3 dlc.DTG would have to program the NK NPC's to act like a bunch of brain washed zombies which is what you would need to be totally realistic.Goodluck.
     
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  4. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    I'll go. Always wanted to meet Kim.
     
  5. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Of course google trends isn't an conclusive source, and we should take correlations not causations from this... but...

    chrome_A10lkPOId3.jpg chrome_gKxOrqfmOq.jpg chrome_HPMcvaQZis.jpg

    I could go on, but United States was 29th on that list xD The sales might paint a different story... but ultimately will be region biased too. So glass half-full... I think there's alot of European potential. Maybe that's why there's alot of interest in Simrail?
     
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  6. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Why? The first North Korean route should be an international one the Khasan Tumangang route. In 2008 an OBB Employee and SBB CFF FFS Employee went over that route and you should read that. Locomotives M62 ASLN Klub-U version (That version can serve as the basis for the DR BR120 Russian/Ukranian M62 locomotive in 1.435m gauge ALSN Klub-U is replaced by PZB) 2TE10. North Korean VME 1 M62 TE1 the 500s a Russian version of Alco RSD 1 4 axle derivative of Also RS1 PRR era HSC 5600s.
    Video of their trip
     
  7. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    And other devs (such as TSG) have said it takes four times longer to dev for TSW than TSC
    Maybe it's not just simugraph that's the issue
     
  8. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Strange how people get so annoyed by this based on a whole bunch of made up reasons.

    The status of diversified international routes is exactly the same as longer routes, tilting trains, dynamic weather, and content sharing were a year or two ago "we'd love to do it but here are some practical reasons why we haven't done it yet". All four of those things are now a reality.

    You can clearly see and feel the enthusiasm from everyone who develops for TSW to make more content, and their enthusiasm for trains the world over, they're not waking up every morning thinking "Japanese trains? OH WHO CARES?", they're just working on what they have at hand and elsewhere looking into ways to break down known barriers and along the way discover unknown barriers. It's not their job to give a running commentary on every single thing they do every day, to change or improve the game.

    DTG have zero incentive to create expectations around things like this because this forum is obsessive, unable to manage expectations, and ultimately incredibly critical when DTG do something new, but it's not the new thing I wanted. I've no idea if more international routes will come to TSW any time soon, it's not a critical issue for me personally, even if I would be very happy to see more variety, but sitting around posting on a forum insisting "it's because they can't be bothered!" seems like a pretty good example how not to engage the people making decisions on this.
     
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  9. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    “DTG have no more obligation to make South American routes for TSW than the Rolling Stones have to make a hiphop record” - Stujoy 2022
     
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  10. Kevinsim1046

    Kevinsim1046 Active Member

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    I don’t think anyone here is basing off made up reasons, yes we can speculate in some aspects, but DTG have said multiple times that they won’t make other countries, and why, most people here are basing there opinions off of those remarks.

    No said that they have to. Though one thing I have noticed as of late, companies world over are starting to become more and more transparent on what they have planned for there product, so I think some of those expectations are starting to leak into here as well. At the end of the day it is DTGs choice what they say and when, that’s fine, but I’ll hold on to my money until there is reason to look at start buying again.

    Again, don’t think anyone is saying they can’t be bothered, however, they have mentioned they are not interested, at least for the time being, so I could see how that can get lost in translation.

    I’m sorry, but that is like comparing apples with burgers. That’s like saying DTG have no more obligation to make South American routes for TSW than Microsoft have to make a ship simulator for MSFS. What the issue is some of us are tired of listening to the same 3 Rolling Stones songs over and over and over and over again. A new song would be a breath of fresh air.

    Just to as well mention what someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, for people that live in these 3 countries, always seem to heavily criticise us who are in other countries and mention we would like some more variety, but when a UK route doesn’t get released a few months after the previous, the forums get flooded with how it’s unfair how US and DE routes are getting priority over UK.

    I have to admit that I have just gotten really board of TSW. I keep around on the forums and videos to keep an eye on what’s happening and keeping my hopes up that something new and interesting comes along that sucks me back in - so yes I’m being critical of DTG, but I don’t want them to fail.
     
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  11. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    DTG have no obligation to do anything... does that mean they shouldn't attempt so in the first place?

    As a Brit, I'm being fed quite well with all the content. I don't think it's unfair that people from the Netherlands, Poland, Italy, Australia all want to enjoy the sim with the same regional treatment and enjoyment that I've had.

    At the end of day... we are one train nation... united by the same track gauge (unless you're broad or narrow gauge...). Dog Bless railfans!
     
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  12. Kevinsim1046

    Kevinsim1046 Active Member

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    Just to elaborate on your findings there, I as well decided to do a little superficial SEO research into the topic, and the results were interesting to say they least.

    This is an estimated search volume for the term 'train simulator' - notice the trend
    Screenshot 2022-08-21 at 12.36.40.png

    This is an estimated search volume for the term 'train sim world' - notice the trend
    Screenshot 2022-08-21 at 12.37.37.png

    I found this one to be quite fascinating. This is the trend of Train Simulator from 2004 to present, quite interesting.
    Screenshot 2022-08-21 at 12.38.27.png

    This is a comparison over the last year between TSW and train simulator.
    Screenshot 2022-08-21 at 12.39.04.png

    An interesting look at the competitors. Seems like TSW and Trainz are quite close, with TSW slowly overtaking Trainz. Will be interesting to see what happens to Simrail over time.
    Screenshot 2022-08-21 at 12.53.19.png

    What I found interesting doing this little research, is which countries are searching, definitly seems like there is a potential international market around, especially around India, Sri Lanka - though piracy is a big issue around there, so that is something to take into account. Another area which seems to be quite big is Eastern Europe.

    None of this is conclusive, but is quite fascinating and definitely makes one think a bit more.
     
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  13. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious now as to what Asian TSC content there is out there xD

    Fascinating research there!
     
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  14. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    There are a few japanese and chinese routes that are officially released on JustTrain and Steam. I also know of some japanese mods and unofficial routes in the making, like I remember once seeing someone trying to recreate the Mizuma Railway.
     
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  15. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    As stated, some areas sadly come with plagiarism or piracy. Just look at the MSTS scene for India, or to a lesser extent Russia (pre troubles) for Trainz. Much as I would like to see content from such areas, any commercial developer is, to be fair, going to think twice about creating for those areas as no matter how much copy protection is applied, the anarchists find a way round it.
     
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  16. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    “train simulator” being the generic term you would search for when looking for a train simulator explains why it drops off when train simulators become more available. You have less need to search for the term once you find one. It would be impossible to separate the generic search from the title specific search for DTG’s Train Simulator at any point, which is why train simulator looks so popular in all the graphs because it is still the generic term used when searching for any train simulator.
     
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  17. Kevinsim1046

    Kevinsim1046 Active Member

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    That’s why I ended off saying: None of this is conclusive.

    This was just a 5 minute quick little search, when I do SEO research for a business, I spend 1 to 2 days doing research and collecting data, so for the 5 minutes I spent on this, please don’t take it as THE results.

    Even though train simulator is a generic term, it is still an important term to keep an eye out on, as this will indicate more of a ‘newer’ customer that isn’t in the hobby yet or who is someone that is using another product and they looking for other options, so you definitely don’t want to just disregard it. Just because we don’t need to use that search term, doesn’t mean others dont use it.
     
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  18. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Well said. People complaining about the lack of UK content is a big slap in the face of the international part of the community and TBH, pretty selfish and shows little empathy. You're spoiled. You can do with a few less UK routes just fine.
     
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  19. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    There's no lack of uk content in tsw. Tbh after many years playing tsc I'd like to see some content that hasn't already been done and more content dtg have stayed clear off. A railway is a railway no matter what part of the world its in.
     
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  20. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Best example of a country that is missing is Japan. I can't imagine a Japanese route would not be a hit. When I think of modern trains the UK is not the first to spring to mind. As they stated the player base wants high speed trains so that's what they will be delivering you would think they would provide us with the most famous high speed train in the world and that is a Japanese route.
     
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  21. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Only in English. To get a complete picture, you'd need to search for other languages as well.
     
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  22. roysto25

    roysto25 Well-Known Member

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    Displaying interest by showing a map of a country can be misleading - Russia looks huge in that way, but I am willing to bet that a map of city origin or a scatter plot would look very different. And DTG abandoning Flight Simulator was not necessarily a fail from the business point of view, but more of a logical decision - they do not have the resources to compete with the big guns in that arena. Concentrating on your strengths is part of business 101 (and for Dog sake, this is not an invitation to more whining about DTG strategy).
     
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  23. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    That country breakdown for TSW percentage roughly collates to my YouTube analytics which kind makes sense
     
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  24. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Only problem with Japan is DTG and their current plan of not using unbranded stock for TSW. With Union Workshops Japanese routes for TSC, they don't have any official branding from any of the JR groups.

    Also on a side note DTG could look to a few countries that use similar locos to the US for a route (But we still run into the licensing issue)

    Australia's ore trains mainly use modern US locos to move ore around the Pilbara are, only problem those routes would probably be more desolate than a US mountain route.
    7d83b973f109446686c6838e32ea245a.jpg

    A good chunk of South American railroad also use US based locos as well. Some 2nd hand from US operators with some modified to fit the different gauges down there (Like the BB40T-2)
    43ea03ee4c36dfdf734977485aaf36ab.jpg
    13914298252_47e144b1c6_b.jpg
    9545.1315546132.jpg

    Mexico is a country that I'm surprised isn't even in TSC atm. Their locos and rolling stock do end up in the US from time to time due to exchanges with US class 1 railroads. Ferromex could be a good option, especially since the Union Pacific owns 26% of it so licensing should be a bit easier. Alternatively N de M would also be a good choice especially if one wanted both Mexican freight and passenger operations.
    800px-Locomotora_en_tren_de_pasajeros,_años_1960s.jpg
     
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  25. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    If TSW wanted a Ferromex route then it can be Piedras Negras Eagles Pass, TX or Nogales MX to Tuscon, AZ. Changes Cajon Pass Sherman Hill is that you have a Random Chance of Ferromex locomotive in your formation. Pilbara Railways Western Australia also uses AC6000CW that can serve as the basis for UP CSX heavy horsepower pack DLC AC6000CW.
     
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  26. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I never quite grasped the paradox which has seen Japanese and Chinese trains in TSC but not in TSW. Licensing is clearly not the problem? I know that 3rd parties, such as Just Trains, have been the source of some Asian routes. Maybe the Shinkansen is in our future.
     
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  27. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Which Shinkansen Line? Hokkaido Shinkansen via the Seikan Tunnel still loses out to Kassel Wurzburg by 30-50 km due to it being 148 km Tokaido Shinkansen with N700S since it can layer to Texas Central.
     
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  28. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, Sendai - Morioka, maybe? About 175 km.
     
  29. Victor4815

    Victor4815 New Member

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    Ese no es México, es Fepasa de Chile.
     
  30. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Huh?

    The Fepasa SDL39 photo was added below my comment of South America, not below my comment about Mexico which I used an N de M photo from Mexico City.
     
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  31. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Currently licence is a problem, as all japanese TSC content is unbranded.

    But train simulators are not an unknown topic to Japanese Railways, as they always had licences with the Densha de GO! games and they still do to this day. So I don't think it would be impossible to get a licence from them.

    And Japan is also full of smaller private railways, so even if JR wouldn't get to an agreement with them, surely some smaller railway could. For example, the a small work-in-progress japanese train simulator called TRAIN CREW is currently being advertised by Mizuma Railways itself. So japanese railways clearly are open to these kind of thing.
     
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  32. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    That can Work and there is two versions of E5 Shinkansen the Purple stripes H5 E5 pink stripe. One thing they have in common is an active suspension tilt mechanism That way you do not derail on Boston Providence when running at 200 mph around Attleboro to Providence section. TGV and ICE3 derail there when Sam played them.
     
  33. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Austria would be the logical first step out of the big 3 for DTG, many German assets could be reused to bring the costs down as well as some locos (and dont they also use PZB??), plus the Austrian TSC routes seem popular.

    But then is it different enough for people who are crying out for more variety?

    Personally I'd love to see some Italian routes, TSW3 could really do crossing the Ponte della Libertà arriving into Venice justice.
     
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  34. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Question is would people be interested in a route from a non-JR railway though?

    Then again, 1 of the 2 Japanese routes from MSTS was a private line owned by the Odakyu Electric Railway.
     
  35. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    And the other was a fully licensed JR Kyushu route...
     
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  36. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Personally I would be interested in any japanese route. And there are quite a few famous private railways in Japan, like the Odakyu railway you have mentioned. Some even have more fame than most JR lines, as many of them are scenic and unique.
     
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  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    This is like saying then that they don't have make any route from any country then. Good riddance to tsw then?
     
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  38. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    OBB the same PZB like Deutsche Bahn since the 1960s. The nightjet you were on from Aachen Hbf to Wien Hbf via Wurzburg Nuremberg Lohr connector line Main Spessart Bahn and Passau had an OBB Baureihe 1116 the Austrian cousin of existing MRCE & DB BR182.
    On consoles it's easier to use a PC Keyboard plugged in to the Xbox/Play Station. Since you have dedicated PZB Lights Sifa Wipers button
    . Furthermore if DTG makes Salzburg Gnigl Linz Wels Hall in Tirol Innsbruck and Wien Kledering Hump Yards OBB Vbf you will find the 363 204 G6 working alongside OBB Baureihe 1063 1064 2070 & 1163 Shunters (OBB documents has them as Verschublokomotive)
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2022
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  39. Vograx

    Vograx Member

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    I don’t think they will ever add anything but UK, US/Canada and Germany.

    They have all the assets, knowhow and half the code to just make new routes based on those locations and railway systems.

    Less effort = higher profit margin per released product.

    A new route in a new location with new railway systems is too much effort thus less profit, not to mention higher market risk as a route outside the “main three” may not sell as well and possibly be rather niche.

    In other words the threshold for making a route outside the main three is simply not a business decision they are ever going to go for.

    It will have to be someone other than DTG making them, or a different game from TSW altogether.
     
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  40. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. It is saying they don’t have to make a route from South America which I used as an example of a place they don’t currently make routes from but has been mentioned that they should. They only have to make the routes they want to make and nothing more, just like the Rolling Stones have made their own style of rock’n’roll throughout their 1000 year career and they don’t have to make hiphop music just because it exists. That’s why I said they have no “obligation”. You are right that they don’t have to make a train simulator at all (and Mick Jagger could have worked in a shoe shop) but it is what they choose to do, and they have the right to make that train simulator (or their music) in any way that they see fit, and include in it or exclude from it any routes (or genre of music) they want. Nobody has the right to tell them what to make. Anyone saying they do is wrong. They can ask them to, and make suggestions, but only DTG have the right to decide what routes they make and you probably won’t see Keith Richards scratching on a couple of turntables just because a youth in a tracksuit has asked him to. It’s a fairly simple analogy.
     
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  41. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    If fans of the Rolling Stones wanted the Stones to do hip hop, the Stones would have made hip hop to stay relevant.
     
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  42. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    I feel this but this is narrow mindedness from senior level within Dovetail I reckon, not world aware which is of many by some vibes on the forum. There’s if not a more welcoming enthusiast / gamer interest from outside of the big three, Germany we know love simulation, other big companies would probably be happy (outside of the main 3) because they’ve been modelled since BVE days and although not on a commercial level still represented.

    I think someone made a thread a while ago giving good suggestions for an Australian metro or HPT express route, can’t remember the thread but lets hope in some form of an editor it happens. I am yet to see a game coded in UE4/5 with access to an editor that anyone can have a go
     
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  43. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    I agree and for DTG they can do Australia starting with Perth with the Mandurah Line or Sydney NSW Cityrail network.
     
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  44. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    You would think that at any level you would see the genuine interest; i’ve seen more overt enthusiasm from across the waters than the UK alone; there’s a healthy enthusiast community here but there’s a little more love and appreciation from other cities, countries that I and we all have seen.

    It’s called Train Sim World but to senior management / ideology within DTG it’s that the world is just Europe, oh and America; and Europe is only Germany and France, it’s a little archaic. I am fully supportive of seeing any other railway; are the signalling in other countries as complicated and tedious as the German system?

    I am sure if approached and explained; there could be a representation. ETS can do it as they look at the community, we’re wide and diverse but with DTG it’s too inclusive. Sorry if I’ve offended the notion but lack of gamer diversity and awareness perhaps is evident?
     
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  45. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    There is a clear distinction between, when asked, DTG giving an explanation for why they haven't yet done something/are not currently working on something, and DTG ruling something out entirely as a matter of fact. When DTG give explanations, they are giving valid barriers that exist to expanding beyond the core countries, but they are not saying those barriers are insurmountable. As I said, DTG gave similar responses in terms of the barriers that existed to making longer routes or implementing dynamic weather in service mode, they ultimately overcame them in time, but as ever, the complaints here mostly centre around people wanting what they want now not however many years down the line.

    DTG, imo, have been on or ahead of the curve in what they share regarding the development of this game, and in many cases it has burned them badly because of a mixture of them saying things too early, not clearly defining their deliverable, as well as players expecting every new thing to be wildly better than everything else DTG has ever done. Current indications are that DTG would likely not say if they were working on bringing other countries to TSW, until ready to announce a route, but we can take an educated guess based on the licence leak last year that for the moment Austria is the only other country for which an official licence exists beyond what is currently in the game.

    In most cases though transparency is not what people who say they want transparency actually want, what they want is the feature or bug fix that is important to them, it doesn't matter if DTG explain why decisions are made a certain way, which is what transparency actually is, those explanations will not be accepted if the outcome is not in favour of a particular person's desire, as is happening here.

    Not buying things you don't want is healthy behaviour and it doesn't really need to be delivered as if some sort of slam dunk to DTG, they're not out here telling people who want a simulator of Japanese commuter rail to buy TSW, so if you don't buy it because it doesn't have that then you've just made a logical consumer decision.

    At least two people in this thread have said exactly that.
     
  46. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I thought I was going over the top with daft things to say but compared to this I was being quite the genius. It doesn’t matter what the fans want, it’s what the band want to do or can do with their resources and abilities. It was a daft analogy about obligation. TSW is a train simulator therefore they must make routes from everywhere being like a rock’n’roll band making music so they must make all types of music. Now if Mick and Keith and the gang did want to cross over into a style of music they can’t do themselves they could collaborate with an established or up and coming hiphop artist in the same way Aerosmith did and they could well have a number one hit and that leads us nicely to third parties getting involved to make the foreign routes. Now we must stop this nonsense before someone mentions Fleetwood Mac.
     
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  47. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should use analogies that make sense? It's not like Aerosmith wanted to make a hip hop record.
     
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  48. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    I mean... the opposite can also be true aswell. Entering new region territories is hard... but that's why you invest in people with expert knowledge in that area and do the underlying work to start to approach new regions. TSW has been out for 5 years with 7 regions. A good chunk of the reason we only had those additional regions was shared commonality with the big three UK/US/DB.

    So yh, it's hard. But there also hasn't really been much sign of DTG working to change that... and for that reason... I really don't blame the non-represented countries for consistently yelling in DTGs ear.
     
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  49. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Hang about, you were saying earlier that the Rolling Stones should make a hiphop record if their fans want them to and now you are saying Aerosmith didn’t want to make the record that was their biggest hit, despite turning up to the recording studio and appearing in the video. I don’t think it’s me that’s not making sense. Anyway, it was just a fantastic analogy that has now gone too far and the bones of it don’t need pulling apart any further. It still stands though, DTG have no obligation to make routes from any country they don’t currently make routes from. At all.
     
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  50. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    You clearly don't know how the music industry works. Aerosmith and Run DMC was a smart product cooked up to sell to 2 audiences. It wasn't even an Aerosmith record. It was a Run DMC record. Aerosmith didn't hire Run DMC to make a hip hop record.
     
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