Will Train Sim World Ever Expand?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by dreampage, Nov 30, 2021.

  1. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    For many months now I've been keeping an eye on the Roadmap, looking for the slightest sign of the developers finally expanding the portfolio in Train Sim World. To my utter disappointment they don't seem to have any intent on introducing new countries or new locomotives into the game.

    I remember a live stream quite a few months ago where Sam said the would've liked to see "around a dozen countries represented in a few years". I'd like to see the same. New countries with new environments, new locomotives, new experiences. Instead, all we get is German, British and US routes only. Over and over again. What's more, even the locomotives are nigh-on clones of each other, without anything truly unique introduced.

    How many times can the BR Class 375/377/379, the Talent-2, the SD-40/70 and the various DB BR "Red Livery" locomotives be recreated (from scratch) and sold? I look enviously at Train Simulator 2022's different editions and artworks where I see locomotives which I've never known, completely different models to what we have in TSW 2. The developers start from scratch every single time, only to recreate basically the same vehicles over and over again. Why not invest in completely new content then?

    Now, I know: Matt has already said that they stick with the same three countries because "the team has a knowledge base of how things work" in these countries. But then let me ask, shouldn't that knowledge base started to be built up some day? You have to start getting to know other countries sooner or later, or is the business plan to stay in the three countries for the foreseeable future? This in itself would be debatable: Dovetail Games has already released one (1) French route. Doesn't that mean there's some knowledge base there? Why not pursue others? To my understanding the LGV Mediterranée was one of the most successful routes. I'm sure there would be demand for more French, or other European routes, not to mention new locomotives, let alone the rest of the world. When will the World be put in to Train Sim World?

    I personally can't be bothered with more German, British and US routes anymore, even more so that they always contain the same locomotives as well. The three regions are great, but there's only so much variety you can get out of them. Train Sim World 2 will never truly expand if it never introduces new countries and new locomotives. There are so many out there, and yet this game doesn't even attempt to capture those experiences. And this not only disappoints me but makes my interest in this endeavour dvindle rapidly as well.

    And it has been so many years already. Train Sim World has been available since Summer 2018. In the past 3.5 years it's got numerous DLC and several new installments, yet true diversity in its content has never arrived. When will it, if ever?
     
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  2. JellyScrub

    JellyScrub Active Member

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    The funny thing is DTG are playing it safe by doing the same 3 countries over and over, but still can't get some things right.
     
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  3. Ravi

    Ravi Well-Known Member

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    I am not a DTG apologist. But with the pandemic, even if they had plans, its probably on hold now. Until the world gets back to normal, the 3 countries are all we are getting.
     
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  4. colinL

    colinL Well-Known Member

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    Imma go out on a limp here and say that these three countries are arguably the best selling as railways might have the biggest fanbases there. I myself am a case of that, as I'm really only interested in German railways mostly. But I do agree with your point, althought for me for example it would mean less new content that suits me would be developed when routes in new countries are developed, it would benefit the game greatly. But I also strongly agree, that the variety even in these 3 countries is questionable. Although for Germany we'll see the BR612 DMU which is something completely new pretty soon, and also the Vossloh G6 is also rather unique. They could at least spice things up by introducing some more older stuff.
     
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  5. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Even on TS Dovetail never really expanded out to other countries, as most of those routes were made by 3rd party developers. The only exception was France, but that was only with 1.5 routes with 1 expansion and 1 horrible loco DLC.
     
  6. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I thinks it's not just about the countries, it is also within these countries that the type of routes are very similar and the rolling stock is the same. Variety on all fronts is sparse.
     
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  7. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Money has a big say in this. And that is fine for a business, but they want to make a profit from year one.
    Look at how much a company like Tesla lost for so many years in a row. But that is not the case anymore. To do that you need visionary minds but DTG went for playing it safe, classic.

    On the other hand, trying variety with an unfit crew is like becoming the king of all, master of none. The problem is like some colleagues pointed out before me already that even focusing on a handful of countries did not yield very good results.

    In my opinion, the game fails to be the evolution it aims to be. The same routes in TS came with extra branches, the correct coaches, and more trains in some cases. I suppose that this is the price we have to pay for the pretty face of TSW. Not worth it at all in my opinion.

    I don't have any hopes for improvements, not with the current mentality/approach.

    Looking at the simulation genre (trains, buses) it always suffered on the quality front. Even the great Microsoft decided to stop making TS and focused on planes. Most likely a business decision as planes appeal more to people.
     
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  8. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    DTG have pretty much said that it’s third party developers that will have to expand the horizons with regards to content from other countries. So far of course the third parties have been sticking with the big three plus Switzerland. More third party developers are required but that’s not likely to be a quick process even if there are willing participants out there.
     
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  9. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Given the flack that current 3rd party developers are getting (whether you feel it is justified or otherwise), I cant see people queuing up to start producing content sadly :(
     
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  10. thundergaming11

    thundergaming11 Well-Known Member

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    Licenses, time, research and money to name a few challenges. These things can't be plucked off a tree and baked the next day. Look how long it took TS classic to get to where it is today (although yes a completely different game engine etc). It will be years and not months until we see a decent amount of varied countries. The current situation in the world sure is not helping to speed up this process...
     
  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Query: what was the first TS route released - by any developer - not set in the Big Three countries?
     
  12. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    No clue if it's the first, but the earliest one I can think of is Fraser and Cariboo by Milepost Simulations, it predates Canadian Mountain Passes by about a year or two.
     
  13. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    -Milepost "Officially" Released Canadian Mountain Passes, February 2014 (Fraiser and Cariboo never made it to steam)

    -Johansteam released KwaZulu-Natal Corridor of South Africa, July, 2014.

    -Union Workshop released Story of Forest Rail in January 2015.

    -Just Trains released Chengdu - Suining High Speed Route February 2015.

    -Dovetail themselves released Semmeringbahn (I never realized they've did an Austrian route) December 2015.

    -Thompson Interactive released Abula Line September 2016.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    And I'm not sure I'd count Canada (sorry, Canucks, but from a railroading perspective things are pretty much identical with your annoying great big neighbor). So South Africa in summer 2014: that would be five years after Railworks/DTG TS launched in 2009, and seven if you count Kuju Rail Simulator (thirteen if you count MSTS!). TSW has been out for just three, and it already has made a pass each at France and Switzerland.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
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  15. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    On this approach, TS 2012 already delivered steam locomotives meaning they needed around 3 years to develop this. They even had a fun mode Trains vs. Zombies.

    Meanwhile, TSW is still finding ways to see how they can introduce steam locomotives because they chose a game engine based on cost factors rather than correctly assessing if it can fulfill the needs of a train simulation.
    And, we are back to the cost factor which is the ultimate deciding factor in pretty much all they do.
     
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  16. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how exactly the 'cost' of Unreal had any impact on this. The actual reasons steam is only coming now is not because of the game engine, but because of SimuGraph, which DTG made from scratch themselves. It simulates trains in far greater detail than TS ever can, and therefore needs setting up - the physics in TS are little more than some numbers plastered into an XML file, which is why many trains feel numb in TS and things like brakes in long consists couldn't be done on a simulation level. SimuGraph is its own thing, and the licensing agreements for Unreal have literally no effect on it.
     
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  17. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    For expanding into new countries, we shouldn't rely on DTG. They have all kinds of silly excuses not to venture into new territory. (See https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...ap-update-16-11-2021.48776/page-2#post-413180 where I went into more detail)

    Thankfully Rivet created the Arosa Line. Although not perfect, at least it's something really different from the usual stuff DTG keeps pumping out. It was a dissapointment seeing Rivet doing another UK line though. I'd prefer them working on their Swiss routes, since we'll be seeing plenty of UK stuff from DTG.

    And while the UK at least has a bit of variety in time period with some modern stuff and some historic stuff (although very little BR Green era), the German stuff is all extremely modern. (The fact that all locos are red and look alike doesn't really help either).
     
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  18. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Simugraph is meant for vehicle behavior and it does not represent the entire simulation experience.

    DTG first used UE 4 in Fishing Sim World and was happy with the outcome. For this reason it extended its use to TSW. They are very different games with different needs, an analysis is required before basing your 10-20 years franchise on an engine.

    I am also watching people play other simulation games based on UE 4 and they too share the same concern that it is not suitable for a complex simulation. Assetto Corsa Competizione, the official GT3 game, lacks in several key ways (AA, lighting).

    Assessments cost time and resources, this is why many games fail in early access or soon after release. Developers simply decide to go for one or the other before analyzing the full implications.
     
  19. jamesthepershing

    jamesthepershing Active Member

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    ;)
     
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  20. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The Bus uses UE4 and, while I know it’s early access, the experience was quite horrible. Refunded.
     
  21. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of other countries - who did the two Japanese routes for TS? I remember them as well done
     
  22. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I believe all four* were done by Union Workshop.

    * if not more
     
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  23. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    5.
    -Story Of Forest Rail
    -Wakayama & Sakurai Lines
    -Hidaka Main Line
    -Tadami Line
    -Tohoku High Speed Rail & Main Line (Currently only on Just Trains, Steam release TBD)
     
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  24. metro north railfan 224

    metro north railfan 224 Active Member

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    You’re actually correct they are actually going to be sticking with the main three until further notice.
     
  25. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the majority of points being made in this thread.

    Overall TSW really hasn’t been doing much for me the last few months, the experiences are either very similar to what we’ve had, or are very buggy.

    BML for me is a good example of what DTG need to do when they deliver one of these ‘yet another’ electrostar route, the experience you get brings the level of enjoyment up, even though we’ve seen these trains a few times already, however the route is so buggy that it diminishes that experience.

    DRA, again a route full of reused stock, but fun because of the branch lines and bypass line, whilst offering a new experience for the 101 (this being actual mileage to run it on), and overall I think DRA has been the best content they’ve put out to date when you consider all the factors, I realise this route has issues on certain platforms but overall these are my feelings on the subject.

    NEC Boston is a little more uninspired, basically a straight line with 2 returning locos and a pretty bland cab car, not much to say on it really, I've always liked the ACS-64 but I feel like the route isn’t anything special and mostly brings a repeated experience.

    Glasgow Cathcart was alright, the route is nice, decent network, and ScotRail in the game, however we have an overall small area of track with only one unit, which limits how much fun you can get from it, because you end up with an overall lifeless route.

    Hamburg - Lubeck has to be the most disappointing route for me for TSW 2, it’s honestly the most uninspired DLC I’ve seen to date, I feel like it was only put into the game because it was easy to do and filled some empty dev time, reused stock that was incorrectly rebuilt, with an incredibly bland timetable.

    WCL, brought us our first Sprinter, however I don’t really need to say much on the state of it, and again the route itself is pretty bland.

    As for US freight routes, these don’t do anything for me so I won’t comment.

    In regards to third party studios, their content has been pretty dismal overall, and whilst I agree that it must be hard for other studios to see the kind of response the likes of Rivet & Skyhook get to content, and decide to get involved, overall the negativity is warranted, IOW, WCL, 38 stock & the 187 have been borderline offensive additions to TSW in terms of their quality.

    Basically we’ve had a good solid year of mostly reused trains, and the experience hasn’t really been improved upon, only BML & DRA deliver a truly enhanced experience, and BML is almost too temperamental to play.

    I look forward to the new Dresden DLC, because it finally introduces a new type of German rolling stock, but the likes of the new US line are just non starters, only feels like that’s being developed so that DTG can say they are producing NA passenger content, but overall we see the return of 2 trains yet again, which will also be 3rd Rail EMU’s with next to no cab visibility (I mean really how many times do we have to have this experience?).

    Ultimately I understand that there are only so many trains, power supply types & route layouts that exist, however in my opinion it feels like DTG are out of ideas or scope, because I don’t feel like we’ve really scratched the surface on how much is out there, definitely not to the point where we should be seeing so much reused rolling stock & third rail experiences.
     
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  26. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Right, I knew there was at least something new after I stopped playing good old Train Simulator, but I'm not totally up to date on what's new on TS content.

    Would love to see Union Workshop develop some awesome Japanese routes for Train Sim World. That'd be so epic.
     
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  27. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I didn't buy Glasgow Cathcart because it looks like a one trick pony like Rapid Transit and LIRR. And I believe it's a pretty short route as well.

    Hamburg - Lübeck was one of the routes I disliked most in Train Simulator. No matter what trains you put on it, the route itself is a rather slow drive on a straight track through a flat landscape. I don't understand the appeal of the route, no matter how good quality the DLC itself would be.

    DTG aren't out of ideas, but recycling the same old trains is cheaper and apparently still sells well enough. There's plenty of trains to recreate that'd offer some variety over the current stock we have, even when they do not explore into new countries.

    For Germany, we haven't seen any rolling stock that isn't modern, we haven't had unelectrified lines, rural single-track branch lines, or any heritage lines. Plus we've barely got any coaches other than Dostos.

    For UK, we have only have a tiny bit of overhead power lines, the only thing from the BR Green Era is a heritage line, all BR Blue era locos are diesels, and the only electric trains we have are modern EMUs.

    DTG must have plenty of ideas because they created a whole bunch of content for Train Simulator. But it seems it's deemed too expensive to develop something new.
     
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  28. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    china peopel make
     
  29. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Same. Really hope they get into TSW development in the near future. I remember many of us believed they did so when the first teasers for their Shinkansen came out, as they were Unreal Engine 4 screenshots, but then it ended up being a TS route (still planning on getting it anyway, just waiting for a Steam release).

    I'm really hoping they do something for TSW as their next project. Would be great stuff, that's for sure. Though they are a pretty small team, so I bet it would be a big challenge for them as well. But I'm rooting for it anyway.
     
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  30. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    DTG's responses (or total lack thereof) are probably more off-putting to potential third parties.
     
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  31. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    If they can't diversify the countries then maybe time to expand the different eras. As stated above, all the UK electric routes are very modern, need something like the first two WCML routes from TS with 86's and 87's maybe even older. We are quite well served for classic diesels but still a few gaps - a Type 2, Class 56, 58 or 60 and numerous heritage DMU's, maybe some DEMU's.

    Likewise Germany, the 42x EMU's are better than the UK Electrostars but not much of a challenge to drive. The IC's are bland compared to the earlier D and E train era with electric locos and UIC or Silverfish stock.

    For the US, some older diesels, Alco's, FM's, and for passenger stuff classic long distance trains pre Amtrak era.
     
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  32. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    The three countries represent the "best-selling" only because they are pretty much the only ones being sold. The repetition is turning me off of this game. I enjoy Train Simulator more for its variety of countries. Back when I first stumbled upon Train Sim World, I was excited and bought every route as they were released. Now we are into Train Sim World 2 and I have stopped collecting routes and only get one here and there. Just tired of the same old same.

    If another company comes out with a similar product but with a greater variety of countries, I would drop this in a heartbeat. I get the issues with covid preventing access for research and whatever, but there never were any signs of them looking into other countries since the very beginning. Covid has limited their abilities with the 3 countries they so much prefer. They clearly do not want to venture into other areas as they seem content with making money from the same 3 over and over.

    Only 3rd party devs may do other countries, but I am not expecting much do to the difficulties I have heard regarding 3rd parties working with TSW. :(
     
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  33. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Well said. I find this amusing...
     
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  34. LodeStar

    LodeStar Active Member

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    Question is, does DTG actively approach TS developers to step over to TSW2? I think that would be the actual key to have more routes coming from other countries/locations.
    The knife cuts both ways, having a broader audience (reeling in more potential customers) from other countries would benefit DTG as well. Because they would be more triggered/allured to buy the already existing stuff too.
    The (half yearly) surveys are pretty nice, but if the surveys are only done under the present customer base, it'll deliver the same results every time. Fishing in the same pond, keeps on catching the same fishes! ;)

    Trust me, there are a lot of potential customers in Spain, Japan, Italy, Australia, Brazil, Argentina and my own country: the Netherlands to be brought in, just by releasing something more 'out of the box'!
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
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  35. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much. No wonder the big US/UK/DE trio is the best selling, when the US/UK/DE trio is pretty much the only one being sold. And the few exsisting routes from other countries are all pretty bad in quality, so no wonder they don't sell.

    Even though there would be huge potential in other european routes as well, and potentially even more in eastern countries, like China, Japan or Russia.
     
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  36. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if DTG should take a different approach. Maybe work on a route outside their zone, but get info and technical details from a TS 3rd party developer who is already familiar with that country. It would probably be quicker than having a 3rd part dev attempt to learn and develop on the Unreal Software on their own.
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Or, and I'll just keep banging this drum, do Austria, which isn't very different at all from Germany in terms of signage, signals and safety systems. They even use the same OHLE voltage
     
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  38. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Austrian landscape, infrastructure and architecture isn't a whole lot different from Germany either, meaning it doesn't really add a lot of variety. Plus, it'd turn Train Sim 3 Countries into Train Sim 4 Countries, which is only a very slight improvement.

    I'd love to see an Austrian route or two, but just expanding the cycle from 3 countries to 4 isn't solve the issue we're addressing here.
     
  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    But it's a start.
     
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  40. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    Hold on a minute here. It depends on the route but we don't have anything like the Semmering or any other alpine route here... and the architecture is only comparable with Bavaria which sometimes declares it independent from Germany anyway ;) :D
    The similarities would start at a more flat route around Wien maybe, but something more alpine would truly be an experience Germany couldn't offer :)
     
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  41. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    Every platform has got smaller in content. When MSTS was at its peak One publisher put a route out with dozens of types of rolling stock and a full network of routes, When Railworks appeared the routes and content with each DLC got smaller. Then when TSW appeared it's even smaller. So it's either a money thing or it's a lot harder to produce content for each new DLC on the successive platform's. Combine this with a pandemic then its a perfect storm to see reused stock time after time.
     
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  42. Haribo112

    Haribo112 Active Member

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    Austrian landscape not different from Germany?? Austria has very mountainous routes, look at the Tauernbahn that just releases for TS classic. It’s an amazing experience, just like the Semmeringbahn. It’s basically European versions of the classic ‘American freight on a mountain’ approach.
     
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  43. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Look at the cost of DLC now and then, prices of software has not kept up with inflation so we get less bang included but more bang for our buck
     
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  44. sugondese

    sugondese Member

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    Maybe we could have a German route
     
  45. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    ÖBB should be next because that will finally allow the existing DB BR182 MRCE BR182 ES64U2 ÖBB1116 15kv 16.7hz only version ÖBB1016 max out at 230 kmh 145 mph on Westbahn Salzburg Wien. Freight Services can be given to ÖBB 1216 ES64U4. For an international route Karawanken Bahn Ljubljana Jesenice Villach ÖBB SZ with the SZ541 layering to Hauptstrecke München-Augsburg as an Augsburg Rbf München Laim Verschiebebahnhof Salzburg Gignl Villach Süd Ljubljana freight via Tauernbahn.
     
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  46. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Developing stuff for MSTS is far easier than TSW, so in those days it was economical to develop many types of trains whereas now you need to seriously focus on just two or three to make them up to standard.
     
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  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    but we already have many german routes
     
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  48. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    The routes in the three countries sell best because no routes in other countries are developed. As an example, there is a big Dutch Community for TS and this community developed about 10 excellent Dutch Routes. There are a few professional rolling stock developers that are doing quite well and get a lot of support from the community. I firmly believe it would be doable to develop some Dutch routes and they may be a commercial success. Because they leave this market, the Dutch community does not move to TSW2, but sticks to TS. So DTG is creating a self fulfilling prophecy, by not doing this, they limit company growth.
     
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  49. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    I would buy dutch routes :)
    Let DTG make Rush Hour stuff around Amsterdam and Airport, and Rivet something around Zandvoort
     
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  50. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    If theres professional developers in the Neatherlands, then why dont they produce for TSW? Matt has said repeatedly that the door is open for more 3rd party developers. Is it because the Dutch market for DLC is too small for the economics behind releasing a route to work? If thats the case then how would DTG be able to make them a commercial success?

    Dont get me wrong I'd definately be interested in a dutch route or 2, but Im not everyone.
     
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