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Would You Be Prepared To Pay More For Route Dlc?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by hightower, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. hightower

    hightower Guest

    I know, I know. Hear me out though...

    DTG have charged £24.99 for a route DLC for many years, going way back to the TS1 days and long before TSW was ever released. That tradition continued with the release of TSW and it could be argued that that was fair as the routes were shorter than their TS1 siblings.

    However, as demand for longer routes for TSW has in increased the quality of the releases has unquestionably declined (with HMA being a notable exception). It’s no surprise of course, because DTG are trying to do more in the same amount of development time afforded to them by the £24.99 price point.

    This poll is therefore intentionally very simple. Would you be prepared to pay more for the longer routes (perhaps 45 miles and up) to give DTG some headroom to release routes of the quality they are doubtless capable of?


    After much discussion on the thread this is probably worth including in this initial post too...

    I think the point needs making that if DTG were to maintain their 10% preorder discount, the difference in cost at launch could be as low as £4.50. Less than a pint of beer. I simply refuse to believe people would not pay that if it allowed DTG even just a few weeks more to raise the level of quality of their DLC.

    I should also re-iterate that I’m mot suggesting ALL routes should go up in price. We’ve already seen IOW sold at a lower price as it’s a short route. Routes of the length of ECW were made to a very good standard and seem to be the sweet spot for the £24.99 price point vs available development time. Once you get to longer routes that is clearly no longer the case and it is for those routes I am proposing they consider a price increase.

    One thing is for sure, if you ever want to see the likes of WCMLOS or WCMLN in TSW2 it’s extremely unlikely to ever to happen at £24.99.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2021
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  2. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but I think this is a silly question. It all depends on the quality of the add-on. I see a DLC, and I see a price, and decide whether it worths the price or not.

    Most people are complaining about short routes and questionable quality with the current prices. Because they feel like the current prices aren't worth it with the current quality. So if we had better quality, but at a higher price, the end result would be the same, wouldn't it?

    Anyway it's not the price that's the biggest issue, more like the "release now, fix later" attitute DTG is showing for their content. I mean look at the roadmap, the Long Island Rail Road is getting a pretty nice list of bugfixes, now, more than two years later after the route's initial release. Why? It's not going to generate much profit now, most people who wanted it already got it.
    Obviously those who have it, including me, will be very happy about it. But let's say they postponed the original release in 2018 by two months, and did these fixes back then, they wouldn't have to work on it now. The route would've released in a better state back in 2018, maybe even resulting in better sales. While now, it's not going to have much effect on them anymore.

    So my point is, at the end they do the same ammount of work for their money, just 2 years after release instead of at the time of the release. The end result is the same, but the players were unhappy for 2 years. Why?

    Anyway, I think most people would be fine with a bit higher prices, if the quality really improved and it would be worth it. But for starters it would be better if they simply stop rushing their releases. We can see that their routes can be improved by a lot with just a few extra weeks of work. Just like they improved the SEHS route in a week with those fences and ballast color change, or how the preserved routes are getting pretty nice bugfixes with just one or two months of work per route? So just delay the releases with 2 weeks or a month and get it done properly. I get it that running a business is hard, but it would worth it much better in the long run. I think most players here agree that they would rather wait more for routes if it means they end up releasing in a better state.
     
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  3. hightower

    hightower Guest

    You state it’s a silly question (how?!) but then in a round about way make the exact same point I’m making.

    A set price point will likely allow DTG ‘X’ amount of development time before a route has to be released. The length of routes has recently increased and as that has happened the quality has gone the other way. They are trying to do more in the same amount of time. They can’t just ‘delay a release’ because they are a business with bills to pay. That is why we’re getting half-finished and rushed releases. By increasing the price to, say, £29.99 from £24.99 the theory is that it would allow them the time to raise the quality to the levels seen on East Coast Way on the longer routes. At least 10 years worth of inflation would dictate that the price should have gone up a bit by now. We can’t keep expecting them to produce high quality content at 2005 prices. It’s just not realistic.

    So with respect, I don’t see how it’s a silly question at all.
     
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  4. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I suppose in a sense, I would, but not just because a route is longer, or the same average length as we get but more detailed.

    We’ve seen that longer routes generally have worse quality, and that shorter routes look more full scenery wise, so for more money I’d want a combination of more length and better quality.

    I think that DTG would struggle to increase the price whilst maintaining sales, many people have an issue with paying £24.99 just because of the price, any significant improvements that come with a comparable price increase would probably come out to around £40 which I think would be a tough sell all around.

    Would I pay more? That depends, £25 is £25, but paying £30,40,50 for virtual content regularly would leave me wanting something near perfection.
     
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  5. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The two are joined at the hip. DTG have the release schedule they do because they require X income to keep the lights on. That translates into "DLC for price N every 6 months," or it could be "DLC for price (1.5)N every 9 months." But 50% more development time would, or at least could, produce more polished, less buggy releases.
     
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  6. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Exactly!

    These are the options going forward as I see it;

    1) They give up on longer routes and concentrate on higher quality shorter routes at £24.99. I would hate this as an option.
    2) The keep on as they are and this merry-go round of half-finished release/flame/patch/forget goes on and on. I would also hate this.
    3) They sell the shorter routes at £24.99 but charge (for example) £29.99 for the longer ones. The level of quality remains the same between the 2 but they are afforded more time and you are paying a fairer price for what you get.

    Clearly not everyone agrees with people on my side of the debate, but I’m not entirely sure how you expect DTG to keep the price the same for over a decade (so not even increasing for inflation) but churn out high quality content. The evidence is right before your very eyes and obviously the sum doesn’t add up.
     
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  7. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, if DTG would reduce the number of sales and increase route quality, that would be the first step. I typically wait for a sale, as I feel I don't quite get the value for money. It is not the price per se, but what I get for it that matters for me, and there are not so many routes I would buy at full prize.
    In a next step, to get significantly longer routes at a good quality level (not a DTG-we-can-release-it level), I would be willing to pay more as well. Again, it comes down to value for money, not the price tag itself.
     
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  8. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    To collect you must first sow, and if DTG wants to collect more in the future, perhaps it should do things differently than it does now.
    Do you want to charge more for a route? Ok, earn it. Make a great product to please the consumer, take the time to build it, and then price that work to make it profitable for you. If consumers feel you've done a high quality job, I don't think they'll mind paying more for it, which will give you adequate profit to keep working on more products that are launched with minimal errors and to offer more and more added value. You enter a positive loop and earn the collective respect of everyone for a job well done.

    But for that you have to get out of the current loop of rushed product launches, using consumers as beta testers and then having to spend a lot of time and resources to fix everything, which will detract from sales and add to customer anger.
     
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  9. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn’t quite work out like that as the number of sales would also reduce as price increases. (1.5)N might even cause a reduction in X, and therefore a negative feedback loop ensues until they reduce the price back to N and it recovers. Ouch, that hurt my brain as I was typing it. Quality would likely not increase enough to prevent that.
     
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  10. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    I would absolutely pay extra if the route is a bit longer to accomodate the high speed trains. Thats my biggest disappointment with high speed trains. It feels like it ends too soon.
     
  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Maximizing the revenue curve is a matter of calculus, but it's a basic calculus taught in all business schools.

    Note that there is a significant portion of the customer base which is fairly price-insensitive, since a LOT of people buy new content the day of release, rather than waiting for a sale.
     
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  12. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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    I am completely on board with this. Frankly, it has always puzzled me that TSW routes ($30 USD) are cheaper than TS routes at $40; however, I suspect there is much about the appropriate business model here that I do not understand!

    Nonetheless, I am perfectly willing to pay more for quality. I once paid $40 for a Train Simulator locomotive – the Searchlight Simulations AC 4400. I loved it and it was worth every penny to me because I knew the physics, sounds (horn!), and appearance were going to be perfect, something I couldn’t say about many of the other TS locos.

    One of the great attractions of TSW is the relatively uniform quality of the locos and routes; something I didn’t find in Train Simulator. I realize that there are literally hundreds of posts on this forum that disagree with that statement. I haven’t driven SEHS yet. However, I suspect that when I do there won’t be many $40 Train Simulator routes that have locos, AI traffic, variety of experiences, and scenery I like better.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
  13. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    yes and no, if i like the route and normally know it sort of and it will contain lots of enjoyement then yes, a highspeed with 1 stop every 30 mins not. 1 hour of stops every 5ish mins yes on average but depends on loco e.c.t.
     
  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I object to the idea for a price increase. Some say that $29.99 is way too expensive and I don't think the console base would want to pay $34.99 for better quality. DTG can easily do better quality routes. HMA being a perfect example. If you increase the price of a route for a better quality it would be good for those who have the money to pay more but if dtg took more time to improve the quality of a route at $29.99, the result would be the same . If they ended their "Release it Now, fix it later policy" price increases for routes would sound like a joke. I don't think that increasing prices would change anything if they just took more time to polish routes and end their "Release it Now, Fix it later" Policy. Plus what if there was a price increase for a new route and it didn't sell well. DTG would probably have to lower the price anyways. Also there are people who wait for a sale and don't buy at full price as well so this idea in my opinion wouldn't work well
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
  15. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Time is money. If DTG were to slow down the release interval without increasing prices, they would soon be getting nasty letters from bill collectors.
     
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  16. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    We don't technically know that. I don't work for dtg so maybe it's the opposite of what you said. Also they have ts2021 and fishing sim world as well. TSW2 is not the only game they make
     
  17. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I would also say fixing bugs later is in the end more expensive than doing it right in the first place, which is often overlooked!
     
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  18. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    PaYiNg MoRe? What a joke. Like the rushed and unfinished products aren't expensive enought.
     
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  19. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Uh-huh. So, how would you redress the "buggy and unfinished" issue without driving DTG into bankruptcy? Hire more developers? They only have about 60 of them, all overworked as it is. But if they hire more, money has to be found to pay them. Or they can stretch out the release schedule, but that decreases the revenue stream.

    There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
     
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  20. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Adams team will likely cost DTG a lot of money to operate. Salary. Benefits, etc etc.

    Whilst there is still room for Adams team (as new features are developed they can be added to existing routes), fixing the bugs that remain in release because of limited development time to start with can’t be cost effective.

    The truth is, we will likely never know what financial pressure DTG is under, but a reasonable price increase in exchange for longer development time would surely be win win win. If there ever is a price increase, I would certainly expect an increase in quality.
     
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  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. If they fix them prior to release, then dtg would not have to spend extra hours and more money to fix them in the first place
     
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  22. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I think you are correct there- but that simply cannot happen without a price increase.
     
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  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree because if immersion breaking bugs are fixed prior to release, then said product would probably not get as many negative reviews and in turn could get more sales in turn by people who may not have bought it prior to release. Also the orinigal cost of the dlc and past dlcs should cover the costs associated in fixing certain things prior to release. It's not as if tsw2's past content isn't selling every day. Also you have ts2021 with it's bucket load of dlcs and fishing sim world as other means of dtg making money. I think increasing prices could lead to less sales overall
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
  24. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I work for a not for profit organisation, which means we have to be particularly cost effective at operating.

    Our whole philosophy is to get things right first time and to limit any repeat contact with a case. The nature of the job means that’s not always possible, but I wonder if DTG has a similar policy, or whether it intentionally allows content to pass with, in a lot of cases, obvious flaws that the community identify within minutes, with an active policy to fix it later. That said, a lot of issues have been outstanding for a very long time.
     
  25. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I think we are all forgetting that DTG is a tiny company serving a niche market. There are only a limited number of potential train sim customers in the world- this is NOT the world of shooters, RPGs or even flight sims. DTG simply cannot, let me repeat cannot, take the approach of "we make it up with volume" the way a Blizzard or Bethesda or Microsoft can. A survivable profit margin has to be built into every release, otherwise DTG goes away.
     
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  26. hightower

    hightower Guest

    ...and with it, like it or not, do the best Train Sims on the market.
     
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  27. ShaneS89

    ShaneS89 Active Member

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    Tbh I’m very surprised that the routes are still only £24.99, AAA games have nearly doubled in price in the last 10 years yet TS/TSW routes are the same price they’ve been for years. Think how many things have increased in price over 10 years but the routes haven’t? I would definitely pay abit more for dlc. In the last few releases you can clearly see that the devs ran out of time, if a price increase can extend the development time I’m all for it.
     
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  28. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Rushed and unfinished products can be adressed by delaying the release date, simple as that.
     
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  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Again: how are they going to pay for it?

    You seem to be demanding something for nothing.
     
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  30. hightower

    hightower Guest

    There’s some very questionable understanding of economics going on in this thread!
     
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  31. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I think dtg should publish how much it cost's them to fix bugs and make routes. Prices may vary of course but it would be intresting to see how much it costs to make the things they make and to see how much they make yearly and yes I am aware dtg are a small company but they have done some amazing things with the amount of employees they have
     
  32. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    But pay for what??? I don't get you. If a product isn't ready they need to delay it, simple as that. Cyber punk wasn't ready and what they did? Delay it and they are gonna release it when is ready. Pay and pay, pay for what bro , they just need do delay the product instead of releasing it full of bugs, reused, unfinished and rushed products.
     
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  33. hightower

    hightower Guest

    ^^ That being a case in point.
     
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  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    tsw2 was delayed but I think what he's saying is how are they gonna pay to fix the bugs
     
  35. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    You really don't get it. TIME EQUALS MONEY.
     
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  36. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm saying how do you recoup the lost revenue from stretching out the release schedule?
     
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  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    You could hope that the dlcs expected sales numbers beat expectations like lgv and hma. You can promote/advertise previous dlcs in game so people who may have an interest could buy, you can get new investment as well. DTG already lose money fixing issues after release as well
     
  38. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    If they didn't rushed products there would be less bugs in their content and with that they would spend less time on fixing them. I just can't understand how some people defend DTG politics. The game has reached this stage do to how they manage the game. I hope on third parties to save this game
     
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  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Third parties effectively saved ts2021. I do get what you are saying. Look at the amount of time it's taken for the issues for lirr to now be addressed and that must've cost more money than intended. Also the team could be focused on other things instead of fixes after the release of a product
     
  40. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as a Silly Question I believe hightower is trying to make a point.
     
  41. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I could be willing to pay more but than it would be based on length, the amount of detail in the route, and number/type of services that would be available to do in the route
     
  42. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    We know that DTG is, in fact, capable of both quality and length at this price point. Peninsula Corridor, for example, is 47 miles. That's only 4 miles shorter than SEHS, but it's possibly longer in terms of development time when you consider that 1) large chunks of HS1 is tunnel and 2) there was no indication that the team had any sort of scenery auto-gen tool at the time Peninsula Corridor was being built. I don't really recall complaints about PenCorr being low quality or lacking in detail. I think it's still one of the best routes produced so far for Train Sim World. There certainly isn't any jankiness with sudden cliff-like changes in terrain elevation, readily apparent buildings clipping through the ground, or floating assets and roads.

    NEC: New York, on the other hand, was only 32 miles and severely lacking in detail. That can, perhaps, be forgiven to some extent for lack of experience working in UE4 as it was one of the earliest routes made for the game -- but, on the other hand, GWE was a bit longer (36 miles) and still stands up fairly well for quality and detail, even compared to routes produced much later and with more experience in the editor.

    Maybe as the auto-gen tool gets revised and improved, it will allow for longer routes (such as TGV - 58 miles) to be made at a higher level of detail with less fuss. But it does beg the question: does the auto-gen really make it easier/faster, or does the scenery/route team have to spend almost as much time/effort fixing issues caused by the tool as if they just placed the assets manually to start with?

    The last comment I have is that in order for me to be willing to spend more money/pay a higher price, DTG have to show that they can make consistently high quality routes and FIX, where necessary, already released routes in a reasonable amount of time. (The attitude of "well, yeah, the audio is completely broken, the route might feel desolate, the passengers act like zombies, the timetable is incomplete, and the dispatcher has no flexibility, but it's not unplayable!" doesn't cut it.) At the moment, the quality really is all over the map between DLCs, and small features that are added in one add-on are sometimes missing from the next. If I don't feel like I get 25 quid's worth of value -- and at the moment I don't, hence why I now always wait for at least 20% off, and often for a 30-35% discount on content I want but don't feel I need to own -- then I'm definitely not going to feel like I get 30 quid's worth.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  43. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Let me put it in as simple terms as I can....

    Just say, for arguments sake a price point of £24.99 allows DTG 6 months to develop and release a DLC. Where they’ve released a 35 mile route then on the whole they’ve been pretty good. Now, lets say that 35 mile route becomes 55 or even 60 miles, but they’ve still only got 6 months because they still only charge £24.99. All of a sudden time gets compressed and things get rushed or not finished. They can’t physically build the route in that time so they’ve tried to develop this Autogen system to aid them which clearly doesn’t come close to the human equivalent.

    So, the point of the poll is that instead they charge £29.99 for the longer route which allows them 7, perhaps 8 months to develop that 55 or 60 mile route. More time = less rushing = better quality.

    That is, of course, not even touching on the fact that inflation over the last 10-15 years in the UK has run anywhere between 2.5-3.5% (maybe more) per year. So costs go up, demands go up but the price of a route has remained static.

    Difficult concept it is not. Do you get it yet?
     
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  44. michael hooley

    michael hooley Well-Known Member

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    I know of no company that would ask their customers if they would be prepared to pay more for that company's products.

    Mike
     
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  45. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I believe the idea here is if DTG were to say it might cost more for a route would you pay that price.
     
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  46. hightower

    hightower Guest

    They are not asking. We are asking ourselves.
     
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  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Peniniusla corridor is a good route and has good quality and it's $30
     
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  48. JAAK

    JAAK Member

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    I would pay not more than 30€
     
  49. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    With some of the scenery I saw on lgv I would not pay more
     
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  50. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Actually, British Airways asked its business customers (who had secretaries make their bookings) how much they were paying to fly on Concorde. They all gave figures much higher than they were actually paying, so British Airways increased the price.
     
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