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Would You Be Prepared To Pay More For Route Dlc?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by hightower, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. hightower

    hightower Guest

    ps All this talk about 3rd parties.

    Find me a third party that charges less for content than DTG....

    AP charge the same (or more) for a single loco as DTG charge for every route released for TSW.
     
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  2. hightower

    hightower Guest

    FML. That’s the point. If you paid a bit more, you wouldn’t get the sort of scenery you got on LGV and SEHS. They clearly can’t make the routes in the time afforded them by a £24.99 price point. I never though this concept would prove so difficult to grasp!
     
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  3. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately not everyone can afford to buy routes for £30 - £35 so I do not support this idea ( don’t want to cause an argument as people are free to have their own opinions )
     
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  4. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    Would we definitely get better scenery, though? What's to say that they wouldn't bump the price up and still give us the same quality as LGV or SEHS?

    What if they went for a 65 mile route? Or 70? Will we have LGV/SEHS-level of detail once more? Would we subsequently need to have another discussion about "well, sure, the scenery is a bit crap, but what do you want for this price point? The development is clearly rushed, they can't make the routes in the time afforded them by a £29.99 price point. Would you be willing to pay £34.99?"

    To be perfectly honest with you, if they bumped up the price, I would rather see them use that extra income to get people working on core development issues than spending more time on scenery: passenger AI, the dispatcher, the sky box/weather effects, optimisation, a bespoke engine for better sounds than using the default UE sound player. These features wouldn't be route-specific, they would be investments that would pay off for every future route. Then they can turn their attention to better detail on longer routes.
     
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  5. michael hooley

    michael hooley Well-Known Member

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    Then my answer is no!, I do not think I have ever payed the full price. If people want to pay more and support DTG then just buy more DLC.
     
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  6. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Yes, i get it , that you are paying more for the same treatment that DTG gives to the costumer. This thread is silly... Paying more for routes OMG...
     
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  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly and that could lead to less sales in the long run
     
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  8. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Well, they’d live and die by whether or not they raised the quality. On the second point, it’s a good one and perhaps makes the case even stronger. If £24.99 isn’t enough for them to make the routes to a decent standard, where the hell do they find the man hours to work on the core too? (ps There’s nothing I want more. Gees, if they fixed the lighting and shadows I’d happily pay £25 to upgrade it, it bugs me that much).
     
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  9. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Another way to do it, would be to have a tiered system. Say £19.99 for short routes like IoW, £24.99 for medium sized routes and £29.99 for longer routes. It does seem odd us wanting to pay more money, but if it helps DTG deliver what we want, I’m definitely open to it.
     
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  10. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Spot on! :)
     
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  11. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    Or let 3rd party developers set their own prices for routes instead of (it seems) requiring them to adhere to DTG's price points?
     
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  12. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I must admit I've always wondered why the price of dlc for both TS and TSW hasn't changed over the years. If they announced a price increase tomorrow, it wouldn't affect my purchase practices. But the idea of a tiered pricing structure is interesting. They have done that from time to time, haven't they? Wasn't IoW a little less at launch? If it would help the company make improvements to its products, I would be happy to support that effort by paying a little more. I think it's important to support small businesses, especially these days. Particularly when it's one we rely on to keep our hobby going.
     
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  13. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Of course, I also can pay 70~80euro per route, but for example I asking for SEHS with the Eurostar (373 TGV and 374 ICE) Line from St Pancras to Ashford, and at Ashford we can continue the loop also via Dover(?), until come back via Faversham and re-join the actual SEHS (obviously with the 395 and 375). Open St Pancras International (full station, not just 1/4) and Ebbfleet International. Add also some Eurostar with no stop service (or just 1 stop), just to see them while passing the flyover track at Ashford International. Or again, LGV from Marseille to Lyon with 4 different models of TGV (old and new, double decker and traditional, different cab and cockpit).
    For something like this I can pay 70~80euro and be happy. And where is the German Intercity? The 101 along 30km in an old route Duisburg-Bochum, without LZB? Sounds like an owngoal! A bit like the Oakville-Hamilton, projected too short to add a passenger services in future.

    They need more time to release a "complete" railway system? No worries, they can always release periodical rolling stock packages to refill their budget.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
  14. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    That would involve more licences more research and dev work, at current tsw rate that would probably justify 70e as it stands.
    A fully polished route, dense scenery, super triple beta tested veryfied sounds. Maximum layer usage for appropriate stock. Id pay an extra £5-10.
     
  15. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Secret pricing strategy alert. Some people will automatically buy the Class 465 when it releases, to complete SEHS as it was intended. That’s £37 for the route and all the locos, if both bought at release. There may be more already planned that will release at a later date. Remember, SEHS only comes with one totally new train at its lowest price. They could have put the 465 in it from the start but somebody has to pay for those extra miles at some point. Guess who? Peninsular Corridor comes in at £49 with all its content (bought at release), all no doubt envisaged from the planning stage of the route. The longer a route, the more loco DLC you should probably expect later. It’s already planned. If they put everything in the route releases they would have no choice but to put the route prices up. This may not always be the case but it is one way of keeping the initial route prices down (getting cheaper in real terms).

    Not everybody buys loco DLC but when they do, they are paying a little towards the cost of making the route it comes for. So the point is that there is a range of prices spread across a wide range of affordability choices for all the routes. It ranges from buying a route and all its loco DLC when it releases right down to just buying the route in a mega sale with 65% off much later down the road.
     
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  16. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, personally I disagree. Now, DTG can't help the Peninsula being one of the most drab, uninteresting landscapes in all of America; but they certainly can be blamed for populating that featureless suburbia with the same tiny handful of houses and buildings rubberstamped all over, made with no more detail than TS20xx assets.
     
  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I take it you believe in Santa Claus?
     
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  18. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    ~70 votes in favour vs ~35 against a higher price... maybe it's not all that silly after all
     
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  19. michael hooley

    michael hooley Well-Known Member

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    DTG know how important the pricing of their product is, and are not going to be influenced by a poll in a forum, as I have said before if those who want to support DTG by paying more, just buy some more DCL then both you the sim and DTG benefit. it would be very interesting to know how many of the 70 do?.

    I am doing my bit, I have almost all the DCL for TS2021. but very reluctant to buy TS World 2 DCL because of the problems with unreal engine crashes to desktop, when and if that is sorted and the sim becomes more stable, I will start buying.

    Mike
     
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  20. hightower

    hightower Guest

    All fair comment Michael but forgive me, I think you’re missing the point of the poll entirely. Buying DLC for TS2021 will not make much difference. Equally, you should not have to blanket buy DLC you’re not particularly interested in at £25 a go in the hope that when one comes along that you are interested in it is of a decent level of quality. Sam made the point in a recent stream that you’re not meant to buy everything after all.

    I think the point needs making that if DTG were to maintain their 10% preorder discount, the difference in cost at launch could be as low as £4.50. Less than a pint of beer. I simply refuse to believe people would not pay that if it allowed DTG even just a few weeks more to raise the level of quality of their DLC.

    I should also re-iterate that I’m mot suggesting ALL routes should go up in price. We’ve already seen IOW sold at a lower price as it’s a short route. Routes of the length of ECW were made to a very good standard and seem to be the sweet spot for the £24.99 price point vs available development time. Once you get to longer routes that is clearly no longer the case and it is for those routes I am proposing they consider a price increase.

    One thing is for sure, if you ever want to see the likes of WCMLOS or WCMLN in TSW2 it’s extremely unlikely to ever to happen at £24.99.
     
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  21. uvm0902

    uvm0902 Active Member

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    I think that in the railway simulator, the length of the route should be at least 50 km.
    I want long routes and am willing to pay more for more work done.
    I would be fine with a set of shorter routes at the old price if they expand on the basic route.
    In the future, I will have 2-3 large interconnected rail networks covering continents. And one big rail trip in Europe, or North America.
     
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  22. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Of course it is. Do you really think DTG will care about this thread??? Ahahaha, they have their prices policy and is not a group of people that only plays this game that are gonna make the game even more expensive.
     
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  23. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    No I don't, but I didn't think Rivet would have cared about the thread asking for a price reduction either, so I am not confident in my ability to judge those things
     
  24. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    But DTG is DTG and Rivet and is Rivet. Rivet games are different in the way that they envolve and interact with the community, that's why they the community likes them as well for the quality of their products.
     
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  25. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The publisher is still DTG.
    Also I don't think Rivet is that loved, the Iow launch was a disaster on consoles and mediocre on PC, now people are upset their liveries don't work anymore, and the BR204 is not that loved by the community either. I'm not saying they make rubbish DLCs, they definitely don't, but they are definitely not much better than DTG
     
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  26. michael hooley

    michael hooley Well-Known Member

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    Yes I was dissapointed with the Isle Of Wight Route and it will be possibly the last route i buy on release for TSW 2.
     
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  27. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I work in purchasing. Companies are regularly putting prices up as their costs go up. They don't tend to ask though, they tend to tell you! However, the cost of a DLC has not risen for at least ten years and yet their costs will have risen, salaries etc. I think they could possibly justify putting the cost of DLC up, or some of it up, however I can see that causing a maelstrom of anger on here and Facebook. Also they might not want to spend longer on a product as it slows down cash flow.

    Plus of course for many an extra £5 could be the difference between them being able to purchase something or not.

    On TS1 some shorter routes were cheaper, the first Riviera line was one such example if I recall.
     
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  28. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    As nice as the idea is, increasing the price of DLC would have little impact on the final quality of the product you get at release. This doesn't mean to say we are never going to increase our prices, but it wouldn't be for that simple reason when we do.

    What is important to note is that so many of you would be prepared to pay more for a higher quality product. And we have not been meeting the expectations and standard many of you would like to see.

    You, the community have shown what can be achieved by voicing your opinions, Southeastern High Speed is a perfect example of this. Thanks to the collective feedback you shared before the release we were able to make changes you wanted before launch.
    And we have continued to read your thoughts after the release which has given us a nice list for that first patch.

    Having to implement so many updates this early after launch isn't ideal, and it isn't something we enjoy doing. We are working to improve our consistency with the standard of product we release. And at the moment we have missed the mark a few times.

    No game is ever going to be 100% perfect, but we can work towards reducing how many problems are prevalent early on in a release.
     
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  29. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    The great majority of companies charge what they can get away with.
    I think dtg provide great value ymmv..
    With each release the bar gets raised and the enthusiasts get more demanding.
    They’ve come a long way since the kuju days.
    The trouble is many on here get more enjoyment from looking for faults than playing.
     
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  30. hightower

    hightower Guest

    So an increase in price would not buy some more development time, is that what you’re saying? Surely more development time per product = less rushing = higher quality DLC. Even if it didn’t buy more development time because of a rigid release schedule it would allow the hiring of more developers, relieving some of the obvious pressure that currently exists.

    I don’t want to pay more, but I do want a better product. If DTG can do the latter without changing the former then great but we’re not seeing much evidence of that at the moment. The same problems remain for me;

    1) The long standing issues with lighting and shadows
    2) Some flashes of excellence, real care and a huge amount of potential but....
    3) Too many instances of sloppy, careless and buggy work
     
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  31. michael hooley

    michael hooley Well-Known Member

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    David "The trouble is many on here get more enjoyment from looking for faults than playing." On what evidence do you have to support what is my opinion a very unfair statement?.

    Mike
     
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  32. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I’m not sure that people enjoy looking for faults, yet molehills do seem to turn into mountains as more people join in to complain about a particular thing.

    Take the fence for example. First it turned into a big deal that there was no fence in-game, then it became a big deal that the fence which DTG added isn’t the right type of fence.

    Unfortunately I think it’s human nature that we are drawn to drama, and also feel the need to offer our opinions, rather than enjoying the simple pleasure of playing and enjoying the route, regardless of a fence.

    If my parents or teachers or bosses were as critical of my work as some have been of DTG’s routes, it would probably be more depressing than motivating or encouraging.
     
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  33. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    To get back to the original topic, I’m not sure that a price increase will solve the real issue at hand.

    There will always be problems with routes that need to get fixed after release, regardless of how much more time developers have to work on it.

    I suspect a price increase would lead to “We paid more for this than usual, but it still isn’t good / great / perfect / bug-free.

    I think there is a fundamental software development principle at work here. “The first 90 percent of the code accounts for the first 90 percent of the development time. The remaining 10 percent of the code accounts for the other 90 percent of the development time.”

    It may seem simple to add a proper fence here, or some trees there, yet it never ends, and you reach a point of diminishing return regarding investment in time that can’t be offset by an increased price.

    An X% increase in price won’t equal an X% improvement in scenery, etc. Hoping it might probably would lead to unrealistic expectations or disappointment.
     
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  34. schorni

    schorni Well-Known Member

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    To avoid this, the simple solution is to develop a product completely before releasing it. Then you have less stress afterwards, people are happier and will buy again next time. Unfortunately DTG has decided for a long time for another way.
     
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  35. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Haha, this is true :) Such folklore.
     
  36. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean “develop a product before you release it”? For some that would mean to have the highest fidelity of the power and braking curves that match published specifications for the unit, for others that means having dynamic weather with realistic formation of clouds, still another group wants to have a picture perfect world where every building is accurately placed with proper textures. Others want the entire rail network represented or short of that, different terminations than the company decided upon.

    I think people need to revisit the meaning of what a simulation is:

    “A simulation is an approximate imitation of the operation of a process or system that represents its operation over time.”

    The problem we have here, is what is a reasonable “approximate imitation”. !
     
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  37. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    A colleague could have had a number of technical shortcomings in mind - bugs. I'm just guessing :D
     
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  38. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    By “develop” a product completely, did you mean “finish” a product completely?

    (I get the impression they invest a lot of development time before creating the route to do research, take photos, sample sounds, etc.)
     
  39. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    I voted Yes*

    *On the basis the more expensive DLC is of a higher quality and has taken longer than a cheaper DLC.
     
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  40. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think there are a small minority of posters who seem to turn up on certain threads, have a rant and say how awful DTG are, how they don't care, how they are ripping people off etc, etc. You don't ever see them saying, "oh that looks good but maybe this could improve....". I do wonder if some of them even own TSW.

    The trouble its a thread which was started constructively then becomes an angry spat and the original message can then get lost.

    There is constructive criticism which most of it is, by people you can tell are passionate and then there those that just want to have a dig, or appear to, for reasons which are beyond me.
     
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  41. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Agree, but talking about involving the community, listen to our feedback and resolving bugs as well in terms of communication, DTG will never get close to Rivet Games. Let's see what Rivet does with the Arosa Line because it's all a learn curve with TSW tools and unreal engine
     
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  42. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, this forum could be considered a simulation of peoples’ interactions with each other!
    (I hope, though, that it is not a reasonably approximate imitation of who we are. I’d like to think if we could sit down face-to-face with DTG, our comments might be more courteous or respectful?)

    Poor DLC price increase thread! We keep going off-topic!
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  43. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Just going off topic very briefly,

    I’m not interested in buying the Arosa line but it will be very interesting indeed to see how Rivet build it.

    Given the games lighting, shadow draw and lack of depth-of-field I can’t see how it’s going to be anything other than a hot mess from that point of view.

    I hope they’ve managed to find a way around these problems but without changes to the core of the game I can’t see how. However, if it is good and a leap forward in scenery then they could even tempt me to buy it. Never say never.
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly what they did with SEHS, they took note and acted, they did quite a lot of work in one week after seeing feedback from this forum, something which wouldn't have happened three years ago. Obviously it still needs some work but it is better than it would have been. They also did work with the preserved collection after the community raised concerns. So honestly I think you are completely wrong.

    There is a way of presenting an argument that will get listened to.
     
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  45. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I dunno. Some have a more critical eye for things, while others are able to simply enjoy routes and be happy with the game.

    I liked IoW and expect to also enjoy Arosa. (No price increase needed, keep up the good work!)
     
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  46. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    hightower In response to your earlier message, we won't ever have a situation where an increase in price to DLC would be directly responsible for the funding of one department only within the company.

    And a change in price won't resolve the problems you've mentioned in one simple fix (as nice as that would be)
    I can completely understand how you are frustrated at the moment as you don't feel like much is changing. But I am here to help get your feedback listened to, it can just take a bit of time before you see the long term improvements.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  47. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    But even if you get more money that doesn’t give you more time , time never stops .
     
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  48. pinxtonpaws

    pinxtonpaws Guest

    TSW is a multi-platform game (in more than one sense of the word ;)) and console gamers won't get anywhere close to the level of quality of the PC version no matter what the price and no matter how long it takes to develop, so to penalise them for the benefit of others isn't the smartest idea in the world. Another point for consideration is that a fair amount of people already wait for routes to go on sale so if they believe that the current £25 tag is too expensive then a £30 route is going to be an awful lot harder to sell if it requires an in the region of 20% discount simply to bring it in line with pre-increase prices.

    In all honesty though, the singlemost important thing for me when considering my purchase isn't the level of visual quality, the accuracy of trackside detail or (IoW excluded) even the length of the route - it's the amount of replay value i'm going to get for my money. Completing the exact same journey from A>B for a super easy gold medal or doing a few generic scenarios is already at the very edge of justifying the current price tag in some instances and probably beyond justification in others so for me personally a photo realistic tree here and there (you know what I mean) isn't going to magically improve core gameplay enough to warrant any price increase whatsoever.

    At the end of the day TSW is a good game but not a 'must have' game so if DTG do start tampering with prices then there's always that possibility it will lose more friends than it gains...
     
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  49. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    This 'species' does not have many representatives. TSW is probably the best choice for the least evil right now. Against the background of the more popular types of simulations (eg flight: MFS, DCS, XPlane), train games are really poor and I would like to live to the time when it will be this level. It may, unfortunately, be a matter of popularity, and in consequence of money, of budgets.

    I am happy to pay extra for the level of such a FREE Zibo 737 (XPlane addon). Give me one train with this level of refinement (you don't need to redefine the word simulation...) and I'll pay you 3x as much as usual.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  50. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Personally, I don't really have many problems with the game, however, if paying a higher price brings more content then I won't complain
     
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