So first off, before I start, I just want to say that I am not being hateful to anybody who chooses to sell payware scenarios. I think it's an interesting discussion and I'm interested in hearing other people's thoughts. So from my point of view, I struggle to understand the concept of payware scenarios - whether they are available via marketplace or third party. I don't doubt that these creators put a lot of time and effort into making these scenarios as realistic, or as engaging as possible - however, I struggle to see what these scenarios have that makes them worth spending money on. What is so different or special about them? Especially when there are many scenarios of the same standard / quality available for free which provide as much enjoyment and engagement. In my experience, payware scenarios offer absolutely nothing extra than what is already available for free. Before anybody comes at me with the "if you don't want it don't buy it" - I know! I am simply trying to understand what is so 'great' about these scenarios to justify any payment. The quality of a scenario, in my eyes, is not a valid argument - for the reasons I mentioned above. I would be interested in other's opinions - if you understand what I'm trying to say? Do you agree?
First of all, it's market economy. You are free to choose whether to sell your work, or to give it away as freeware. There's surely a lot of players who want an out-of-the-box experience and do not want or get into manually installing stuff. Also, there's a psychological thing playing into, because that content seems "professional" or "official". These are the main customers for payware scenarios. A few clicks on Steam, and it's all there. I choose to pick them up on sales. There are some really good packs, the ones from SevenHills for example. But I find the best place to look for is the Workshop - there is great stuff on there that's definitely worth playing. I mentioned Coasty's cinematic scenarios often, and also Not.Silent's "realistic traffic" scenarios - packed with additional scenery - TS feels very much alive. High Iron Simulation's are pretty much straightforward and simulate realistic operations (which may be boring), I download both his WS stuff as I buy the packs. There's is a certain "complete-your-collection" aspect to it, yeah. And as the Workshop still has issues and needs workarounds, it may put some pople off.
Have you tried any of the Golden Goldsmith payware stuff? The attention to detail and immersion is above and beyond almost all freeware stuff I've come across.
No, I only purchase Steam scenario packs (on sale) and use workshop. Other than that I don't want to spend money on scenarios. But, these look interesting.
You struggle to understand why people expect to be rewarded for doing work? Sure, there are those that make them for free, but that doesn't mean everyone has the time to do it as a hobby. There are people who make routes for free as well, and some are amazing, but I don't see you wanting to discuss why DTG charge for new routes. Why is that? I actually fail to understand what it is you want to discuss here. Some people want some remuneration for their time, while others don't. If you don't see the value in people's work, then don't buy their products. I really don't see the point in making posts to moan about things like this. There are enough people in here who moan about people trying to earn a living already.
It's like Patreon. I didn't buy UK packs yet, but I did get a few Elphaba packs, having played some of their (or his) workshop. 3rd party packs are sort of similar I suppose. Note, some loco DLC is pretty much a pack of 3 scenarios. Especially retroactively, such as the BR 442 for MG, or most recently the Acela for NEC-NY. Old examples would be the Class 66 packs. Practically, one selling point of these scenario packs can be to offer more realistic runs. Usually, routes can only use their own stock, and trains just themselves. That's where Quick Drive as a main mode just wins. AP decided to go the other way, and got some flak. (15 scenarios, well, you can play 2, and you need 3 more packs, but then you need...) Workshop is random. Some authors like RBJets for a long time decided to not require any DLC. Others, well, I was incentivized to buy 200 DLC during my first year of playing. (Roughly. Didn't count. And I was a fan. And deep discounts.) To round this paragraph of thought, scenario packs have the option to list their requirements, ideally sell as a bundle, then have nice traffic. By the way, creating scenarios also takes a bit of work. Basic stuff like seeding a quick drive or just setting up a basic end-to-end like I do for photo shooting, takes just a few minutes, but if you actually want good AI, then you have to plan the timetable, meets, etc. It can be like DLC for AAA titles, the route is probably a loss, the additional loco makes it roughly even, the scenarios are profit. The aim is to make people happy with the earlier offerings so that they end up purchasing the later ones.
Take a look at golden goldsmith scenarios. You can download a few free ones from each pack look at the quality and extra detail then you will realise the price they are incredible
I'm not understanding this sentence could you possibly elaborate? When you say "in your experience" what payware stuff that you've bought compared equally to freeware scenarios?
I've bought Steam packs before (not that I should have) plus the BNSF ES44AC/SD40-2 twin pack which is effectively a scenario pack, but other than that I don't really consider buying scenario packs, especially ones from places that don't have refund policies as forgiving as Steam's.
Huddersfield to Manchester, recently released from DTG is no better than free routes such as OTS Cumbrian line, but no one seems to be suggesting that DTG should give it away for free. I really don't see why payware scenarios are such a problem for some people.
If I want it and its not available for free, I'll pay for it. I often donate a few quid to the creators of freeware anyway, if the option is there.
I don't see the point in paying for something with a massive list of payware requirements. UK scenario creators need to learn some restraint. Also considering AP's habit of delisting their stuff they perhaps aren't the best choice for stock to use in scenarios.
And there is me wondering which route/loco I should buy in the latest Steam sale along with the applicable AP needs. I will admit that I have posted about the way the costs and subs are for the stuff I like, but the deeper I looked into what is available I have come to the conclusion that all of it is worth what you see in the value of what you are getting. I eventually paid for the ATS sub, I moaned about paying subs but in the end it was worth it to me for what I'd already invested. I have learnt a lesson in this hobby and that is to have a plan on what you want, work out the routes you like and then (read between the arguments) in this forum to see what is best for your needs. Also take into account that some routes are really badly received but are essential. I am currently working my way in trying to work out / own everything that is needed to run all the major routes in the UK and it is hard and expensive. So if someone is willing to go to the lengths to make things happen then they deserve to be paid accordingly, remember DTG make a lot of cash for some poor stuff that has to be sorted by people for free.
No, but you're stamping your feet because scenario designers make what they want to make rather than what you want them to make. "learn some restraint" lol.
I have literally no idea what you are talking about. I've never once suggested scenario designers make what I want them to make. Are you sure you are replying to the right person?
He was responding to eldomtom2 As far as I see, it's just a self escalating discussion. Bad wording on one end, then a bit of overreaction leading to a bit of overreaction, just defending the position. I guess the following wording would have been better: Scenario creators would benefit from having some restraint, having fewer requirements. Everyone is right here. Creators do whatever they want. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, to like and dislike practices. I think the whole situation is based on a feeling that in order to pick up TSC, you need to invest so much up front, particularly with 3rd parties cross-referencing. Long time players cannot understand it as they grew into it. I remember Cyclone quickly devising that in order to start with them, you need to buy like 50 packs, unless you're happy to ignore the scenarios and consider them as raw assets. At least on Steam old stuff has significant discounts on top of inflation making things relatively cheaper. This is a phenomenon specific due to the age of the sim and the lack of a good stock management / replacement system. It's as clumsy as it gets. Unless you stick to Steam. But even there it's problematic with revoked packs referenced by workshop.
From workshop experience, I can tell that the most common complaints I've had are (list below). Equally, though there is an impression that people seem to think I "hate AP", I don't - I just don't feel the need to create scenarios that need to use 500 DLC just to work (I'm not against others doing so - but then again I've pretty much just stopped making scenarios). Not using AP items Using AP items Not using enough DLC Using Too much DLC Using the wrong AP items Using DTG "LOVE" Using the "wrong" DLC (e.g. the ICE TD from Pegnitz instead of the original ICE TD ) Using Marketplace items "Danny" making scenarios Making scenarios is just a big minefield to be honest.
Then this is a case for always including a quote from who you are replying to... like I have just done
I, err, mean, he did! I think someone needs their post-DST morning coffee I'm already on my afternoon tea!
Do you, by any chance, ignore the quoted person? I tried to look for settings to remove partial quotes from preceding post, didn't find any. So anyway, that's sorted on a personal level I think. Back to topic with all of us!
The Workshop https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197968968753/myworkshopfiles/?appid=24010&p=1&numperpage=30
That can be a problem with a lot of scenarios I look at Scenario and if they need an AP add-on that I don't have but there is a DTG alternative then so much better It is nice to have a good Player loco/unit/train but the rest is Eye Candy going past as you drive.
