Us Routes!

Yeah, there is more than plenty that can help fill out the CRR route, but DTG never bothered with them....

GP7: Can be used in local coal service, There is alot of coal tipples not used on the route, this loco could of served these and brought the cars back to either yard for switching, loco can also sub in as power with the F7 (Same Prime Mover and HP at it) Plus would be the 1st high hood in TSW. DTG easily could of modified the CN GP9R into a CRR spec GP7 and used the F7 sounds for it.


SW7/NW2: Used to switch cars in yards.


U36C: Even though the CRR didn't like them and traded them away for SD45's. they are an older GE that would of given a different mainline experience than the SD40.


3 loco DLCs, right there, plus if these also added more period accurate cars, you would have a nice immersive 1970's route for Clinchfield....

 

Longest routes is not really about a GPU. Because the rendering range is the same as on short routes. It's more about CPU and memory

 

I don't see much difference in RAM consumption on the Leipzig-Dresden route compared to other routes. My 16GB of VRAM is starting to run out, and I'm finishing the trip with 15GB.

 

It's not that I looked at the system requirements for DLC (I've never looked at them because I know the approximate performance level of the game), but PC is a separate world and a minority. Va Your 3060 is already more powerful than the one in consoles and has three-quarters of the memory available on consoles (16GB total). Yes, it's easy to say we want a 300km route. I don't think there are any technical obstacles to this. But if it doesn't work on consoles, it's a commercial failure. We need to be realistic.

 

Yeah, it's that RAM backlog for tracking the movements on the whole route that kills it for consoles. It's not what you can see... it's what is in the "background." Although to be fair, even the really good GPUs in consoles get dated over time since they've stagnated compared to PCs. The new hyped (but no release dates) console "hybrids" are basically just PCs, so maybe it won't be a huge difference in the future. Might just end up with basically a slim PC with a funny controller (even offering Steam support)
Which... I get that's what consoles ARE deep down.. the same "guts" as computers... but it's that different UI and "frozen" specs that make them different.

Anyway, long story short I don't think CURRENTLY longer routes are good for consoles. We can't predict the future. However, there is often just not enough to do INSIDE of the space we have. As I've mentioned before there are often a LOT of stuff on the maps that just sit there unused. Sidings for example, or stations that are modeled but the trains never stop at. Sometimes even whole branchlines like on Shap that were created and never used. It's not how long routes are... it's how the routes are used. The ultimate example of a "long, unused" route is Kassel. It's over 100 miles of.... nothing. Just one straight line with nothing to break it up.
I did an end to end run and that was torture.
Like watching paint dry.
Just endless nothing.
Even Shap (I hate to say it, and I know it has it's fans who adore it) is a bit long for my tastes for how relatively little there is to do/see. It's well done for what it is, but it's just not "engaging." Meanwhile, there's one branchline on it fully modeled not used that has more interesting stuff down there (you can only WALK to) and another branchline party done that you also can't use.

Then of course there's SOS and PFR which (steam arguments aside) are woefully empty. BEAUTIFUL maps that would be engaging if there were more traffic and stops in the timetables.

So no, in summary "longer routes" don't make things better. If done as they currently are, it just ends up with more emptiness. Fill what we have better first!

 

That’s one issue. Another is the sweet spot for TSW seem to be around 1-1:30hr time frame for routes. How many people would play a full route longer than that without leveraging the save feature? Not saying people wouldn’t, but I’m curious what that number looks like.

I know it’s a commuter rail, but the NYC-Stamford stop would be great if it went to New Haven. For Amtrak, that’s 4 stops between the 5 stations for the NEC Regional taking about 1:45 mins in total. Acela is 2 stops taking about 1:40 (due to all the congestion on the line. Metro-North trains that go up to New Haven are usually express straight to Stamford (with maybe a stop or 2 before, then local all the way to New Haven taking a straight 50 minutes to Stamford and a total of 2:15.

How many people would want to play services that long, especially when there are long breaks between stops?

 

People that REALLY go on about long freight routes should give Run 8 a try. It shows you just how uneventful a LONG freight run is. Now Run 8's realism and dynamic consist system DOES make the beginning and ending FAR better than TSW (you actually have to build your consists and drop them off the right place in order, safely) However, en route that's literal hours of traveling. It can take 10 REAL world hours to get from one side of the in-game network to the other (Los Angeles to Seligman, Arizona for example which is about 400 miles) Most of it is like Cajon Pass too (which is part of it)... empty desert with a few small towns.
WHOLE lotta nothin'.
The people that ask for those 200+ mile routes in TSW haven't played long routes to see what it's like. Give it a try first. Run 8 isn't as good graphics wise as TSW, so it's not really a "competitor" in my view. Go pick it up, it comes with HUNDREDS of miles of track in the baseline game, all from Needles through Tehechapi all the way up to Bakersfield and lots of side routes so it's worth a look.
It gives you a perspective on SIZE in American railroading in the southwest.

It's kind of the opposite problem to TSW.

 

Run 8 also has alot more that can go wrong if you don't know what you are doing (IE broken knuckles) Which apparently is a feature that is possible in TSW (Apparently its there in the editor) but is not enabled.

 

There's a joke: Brits think 100 miles is a long distance, and Americans think 100 years is a long time.

 

That's a very interesting question. I think DTG has statistics on how long the average player spends in the game. I could easily spend two hours driving the route. And I probably wouldn't even get bored. The only question is, how many of us are there?

 

There is nothing wrong with longer routes over the 100 mile mark as long as the variety is there and its non-linear...

Who says that all the USA freight runs have to run through the western deserts? there are plenty of variety in and around major cities, especially those that have good commuter networks to mix in with..

I thoroughly enjoy my TSC runs from Euston to Birmingham, Kings cross to Leads or York as well as Paddington to Plymouth and beyond on the GWR and get really frustrated at TSW when all they run is:
- Euston to Milton Keynes, instead of going additional track to either Rugby or Birmingham while the short runs to St Albans and Bedford aren't even included,
- Penn to Trenton instead of the 32 extra miles to Philly and have zero freight availability or statics to create better immersion
- Faversham to Dartford when an extra 17miles gets you into London Blackfriars while the short track to Sheerness to offer a little variety is non existent ..

 

Think there isn't anything wrong with that, as long as DTG does them well and doesn't miss things.

AVL for example had a few sidings that sat dormant, that could of used a layer for the UP GP38-2 to serve them (Like IRL), not to mention the rock train that used to run. (The RVUVU)

Another example is San Bernadino Line, where some freight services hit the out of bounds line and ended the service, like they were never play tested.

At least NY Stamford has Oakpoint yard, but the exchange at Fresh Pond Junction isnt there.

 

I’m one of the people asking for long routes. And I have played Run8, and love how long one can play for. I’m probably the exception, but I don’t care much about seeing scenery out of the window, I care about completing the service accurately. To me, an 2-hour service goes by in the blink of an eye, I’d like to get immersed, which for me means a lot longer than that.

And yes, on a 10-hour service, a save feature would definitely come into play most times. But as I mentioned, I often fly multi-hour flights in MSFS and sit there the whole time, I enjoy it. The question, as was asked above, is how many of us are there?

 

if it is in the weekends sure
but not on working days (30-60 minutes max then)
longest train session i played was around 3-4 hours in 1 go
but that was on train sim classic
now a days in the weekend 2 hours is for me about the limit
then i need a break to stretch my legs
sometimes i let the game run in menu mode then

 

what about MSTS Kicking horse pass route: Field to ozada. that's 90+ miles route. could consoles handle that? here the thing field bc is mini yard and ozada is long siding. Calgary is little too far. i enjoy that route in MSTS. did anyone else mind if route like that ending on siding?

 

If it's say... let's be generous... 10% of the players want over 100 miles... would that sell enough routes to make it worth it?
Because over 100 miles would also come with more cost.
Many players don't only have a time limit they like, but also a spending limit.
When you get into the $60-$80 mark then your sales drop off, making it less able to make it's money back.
To enable all those miles in Run 8, it's both a) low cost (I think it's what... 3 or 4 guys doing it as a hobby, plus some third parties...making basically TSC level graphics routes with few assets like buildings and trees) and 2) the cost of all that DLC to "string together" starts getting very expensive. Additionally, Run 8 isn't on consoles just gaming computers so 3) not console players.
I'm just not convinced there's enough people out there who are both wanting routes a few hundred miles long AND willing to pay the huge price tag for them. Let's say best case scenario you get a high quality route like Shap for Just Trains that's twice as long... for twice the price. That's $90 for 180 miles. It'll last you about 3-4 hours (if there's traffic, car movements, delays, etc) And probably only available on PC since it would turn consoles into a slide show (unless you REALLY strip out all the layers and minimize traffic on it)

How much market is there for it?
If there is then by all means make it.
I just don't see TSW being the home for that content.
The people that want it already can get Run 8 and Sim Rail.
Those that can't (console users) won't really benefit from it.

And as it is, if you WANT to spend 8 hours i TSW... you can. Just do "route hopping" between maps OR keep running the timetable which continues 24 hours a day on all the maps. Nothing stopping you from running another service. Again, long-distance single load freight is a niche.

 

Valid but the TTs for adjoining DLCs don't match.. I have no dramas with Route hopping but without the TTs aligning its kind of pointless to continue a single run/service.

I don't think longer routes would necessarily cost an arm and a leg but TSW is created with assets that are hand created and placed etc which does take a lot of time (and shows with some DLC scenery looking as poor as it does since they probably couldn't be bothered to add things because of how tedious it is ) then yes the costs are quite high as we currently see.

While for Consoles, they could handle larger routes but suffer because of a poorly optimized core and again most likely too many hand created assets that can create high poly counts thus killing vram..

This is why I'm holding out hope that the new techniques and tools they are using for Metro rivals work and how scenery is now created where it doesn't rely on asset placement but open source map data to dynamically create the buildings etc. Should it work and be a massive performance increase then its time to implement into TSW and if unable, then its time to move with the times and create an entire new TS from this.

I dont see it being an issue having longer routes as long as it can offer good gameplay to cater for both those that enjoy short sharp stuff as well as those who want to go a little longer/complete an end to end service on one run and so far there are only a few that I can think of that do.

 

In some cases I understand they're from different years or even decades, so I can see why the timetables don't match exactly. However, you'd think for the newer routes that are for the same time they should match up... because that's what a train would be doing in real life.

I think there's a great opportunity for a third party to start creating scenario content using linked "journey mode" series to link those timetables up one to another in a series.

For example, you should be able to link a route down GWE from Reading to London. Then the next run is London down to Brighton on the LBC. Then when you get to Brighton,it loades into the ECW Brighton to say Eastbourne. That's entirely possible to do in real life (I don't know if there's a layover at either London or Brighton, but you get my point. Even if there were, you wouldn't have to "sit" through it, it would just load into the next run.)

Call it something like "Reading by the Sea Shore" or something, and that's a 3-part "journey."
Package maybe ten of them together and release a pack for $4.99.
a Just Trains run from Carlisle down to Preston and Preston to Crewe (when the new route comes out) would be nice too. (Or Preston to Blackpool)
People WOULD pick them up because it's what... 50 cents for a fun journey across the country without the hassle of having to find and load up the next route?

You'd have to "fudge" a few times if they don't exactly match up (as you said), and make sure they're the same sort of consist. However, it'd be a huge value added to TSW.

I know we're discussing US routes in this thread, so let's add a couple for the US... maybe
You could do Providence to Boston to Worcester with the same MBTA stock.
You could also take a ride down the Antelope line from Palmdale into LA Union Station, from there out down San Bernadino, then up Cajon Pass to Barstow. It sounds a bit weird being a "U" shape, but that would make sense for a drop off/pick up in the San Bernadino yards freight yards. That's what a freight train crew might actually do (say bring a load of military boxcars from the factories in Palmdale down to San Bernadino to drop off, then hook up some freight that came into the Port of Los Angeles and to San Bernadino that has to go to Barstow to be transferred for a cross-country trip on the mainline)

I don't really know enough about the setup of the lines in Germany to say what goes there, but you get the idea.

 

The newer routes are already old by the time they get released. So the timetables are from a previous setup. I don’t know much about UK timetables, but NJT timetables change at least once a year. So depending on the routes, I’d think the timetables are already not lined up when they release because real life times have changed already.

 

While everyone is enthusiastically discussing US routes, I'd like to ask how many US routes TSW is currently officially developing?

 

We know of two. New York, NY to Stamford, CT and an as yet undefined route from HIS.

 

Currently there are two US routes in development NEC NY-Stamford and a freight route from High Iron Simulations

 

Length is not a challenge to anything but disk storage. Terrain doesn't become a burden until the scenery tile loads. It could indirectly affect CPU burden, but only if the longer route adds to already heavy TT traffic, as it might in Germany. Long US hauls just don't have that many trains running simultaneously (esp since US carriers prefer One Long Trainh to two or three shorter ones).

 

And , just for fun, the F7B with hostler controls, as a shunter.

 

Just a note for those wishing for a truly accurate simulation. I doubt if any commercial organisation would ever use MSFS as base for a training simulator, but its competitor X-Plane does have a commercial version. It is not available off the shelf, but those needing such a software platform have in the US to meet FAA requirements for simulators - and a key demand is that there is zero stutter in the system when it runs - take that UE. And by the way, the commercial version likely costs somewhere around 100 times the cost of the consumer version.

 

One of the reasons is that the commercial version sells significantly fewer copies. It may even have been custom-made and sold to one and only subject.

 

I’d assume that commercial version is sold more to actual aviation companies as a simulator tech vs individuals (although there are also probably a bunch of real world pilots that want it at their home for practice sim flying purposes).

 

What about Prepar3D, which is from Lockheed?

I rather suppose flight schools using 'pro' license XP12 or P3D simulations for their courses available to amateur pilot classes.

Commercial airlines probably make use of simulators, i.e. hardware cockpit mockups on movable stilts for tactile feedback of the aircraft's response?

AFAIK, ZuSi, ZDSim and even SimRail also have ' pro ' versions used in training drivers about signalling and perhaps even road learning. But from what I've seen, the pro ZuSi uses a single small screen placed behind the mockup driver's desk.

 

Plus, not only would I be legitimately excited about a GP7 or an NW2, that's two locos that could be very useful for a ton of other routes. The GP7 especially still sees a lot of use in the present day, so it wouldn't have to just be vintage routes (even if they're filling in for rebuilds or just serving as a switcher in modern-era products). The U-boats would be less universal, but they'd also be the first GE product from that era in TSW, IIRC.

 

There is no freight route in development

 

HIS has stated they have a freight route in development, but its not officially announced yet, so its not on the roadmap at this time.

 

The Texas Chief!! The Santa Fe railroad operated a direct passenger train, the Texas Chief, between Chicago and Houston (via Kansas City, Wichita, Oklahoma City and Fort Worth) from 1948 until 1971. I rode that train several times. It's a great retro route to model. Again the great middle of America gets passed over and this is as middle as you can get. You can also model freight operations with everything from grain, oil and livestock.

 

How do you even know

EDIT: are you referring to BNSF GP60 Add-on or Santa Fe gameplay pack because these aren't routes.

 

I was kinda eyeing Everett to Blain or Everett to Vancouver today, which seems painfully close by.