West Coast Main Line South Improvements

A Big step for DTG for their statement and willing for an update - Thanks

The route itself looks not that bad at all, as I feared from all the comments on steam. Some areas look good, but some not (as Euston for example). My first drive in a QD was ok, a second stopped at a red signal (slow Euston to Wolverton). Performance was good, but I has played on a new PC which I buyed because for MSFS20 (all settings on high). There´s potential but potential for updates too - no way, especially for overhead wires under bridges, at tunnels. Some running into walls (also a train byside a wall), thats a nogo for payware.

However it would be interesting how´s the processing from route building to publishing:
- is a date for release set, before route´s finished?. I can understand if theres a sudden death date, at there a product has to be finished to not raise the further costs for personal and other stuff. But wouldn´t be better first finishing a product, check it, and then set an release-date?
- how´s about testing. Are there testings? Or not, because of missing time? If there´s no time until release, than a publisher have to hear to their community, and fix/update things. That would be fair.
- when there was a beta-testing - has the beta-tester figured out some problems? Are the problems solved/corrected or not?
My feelings: Since the route extension for Cologne - Koblenz I have the feeling that in some points the route builders lost something. Signalling becomes for some routes more worst than earlier, in track building with superelevation there are little more failures than earlier. Has the team changed?

I think the Train Simulator has much potential, also when there is a TSW existing. If the quality is right, than all can be happy. The people that play TS21, and DTG because you can make more money. But that´s the point. A little more quality and a better quality control. Most of the visual stuff is ok, I personally think that most of stations in your newer routes looks very good. But than you make it with other things worse for example the signalling (especially on german routes).
Small word on pricing: if the qulaity is right, than I think a 30€ route with around 100mile is more than good. It could be 40€ too - but: the quality must be good!

 

Well, I’m still confused. You trying to say I’m stupid?

 

I think he was referring to this:

"The first update is being worked on now, and we are targeting within the next week to 10 days. We will follow up on this thread throughout next week to ensure you are kept up to date."

Easy to miss when skim-reading.

 

Just throwing in a bone here as it is mentioned in the first post that most of the FPS problems are in the Pendolino train that is included.

This issue with that it has low FPS has been already known for years since the complaints of the original "Virgin Train BR Class 390 'Pendolino' EMU" (https://store.steampowered.com/app/704283/) but it was (or is) never (going to be) fixed.


As the train that is mentioned is the same, these fixes can then be backported for people that have the Virgin 390 which can then also benefit from those enhancements.
Think it will end up the same as the TGV Reseau, problem was identified shortly after release, fix was made, in testing. But never heared of since because of 'it needs translation', what needs translation about a Geometry fix, talking pantograph in German?

Sidenote:
Armstrong did update their Class 390 Sound Pack, which includes a script fix, yesterday with compatibility for the WCML South variant.

Since we are on the subject on 'fixing content'.
DTG should know (and probably knows) that most of their sales on the PC Platform are still Train Simulator (about 1200 people more then TSW 2020 and TSW 2 combined) so the player base is still more the double of even triple the size of both TSW games.

DTG should do the right thing and take care of those people who fund their business by buying add-ons with FIXING their older stuff.
Yeah, third party items sold on Steam aren't fixed by DTG (as they aren't the developer), but the DLC that are from DTG (or developed under the DTG name) should be taken care of and be the crème the la crème, top notch, the leading example (and giving people support, which is lacking for years!)

DTG think (and DTG Protagonist even said it on several streams) that fixing older content doesn't get them more money, well WRONG.
Good content and supporting the content with fixes INCREASE sales as people tend to by the content from Steam and then maybe on the first day when the price is high, instead of waiting on 50% or more sales.
It then spread the word that the content is great to use and people then tend to buy it sooner and so on...

Most of the time people complain about the builders of the assets, builders of the routes, builders of the scenario's and the beta testing team (still existing? or just not heard).
But the management is to blame as they set the targets and then people who actually do the work such as mentioned earlier do their best to complete their work in the allotted time.
I sometimes see (and do it myself too) that directly blaming the content creator instead of the higherups who make the decisions.
But they are the front line, catching the blow.

I am sure that the beta testing team we hear so much about is doing a good job, reporting things but there is no time to fix those reported items as the release is getting ever closer as some obvious items (for example) testing the ONLY scenario with the Pendolino can clearly see in the first second after loading that the support structure is missing for the bridge and the catenary is going through it.
This should have been reported then and could have been fixed.

Either the workload is to big (as in thinking to big in scale and the not having the time) or the people in the management who go on about the time scheduling are completely wrong.

 

One would think that with the pre release of TSW2 debacle that they would get there house in order. DTG deserves every ounce of criticism on this. How hard is it to let a few people run every route before release as a final test. I don't know if they use some sort of automated test bed to check these. Sometimes in house testing is not adequate Sub it out to some of the more advanced players who do route creation themselves for testing. It is obvious in house is not working. These obvious errors are unacceptable, subtle errors are harder to find and only accumulated game time will find these.

 

This is just what I don't get. I don't know the overall make up of their beta team, but I personally know of some of the well estalished individuals involved. And there are some extremely experienced and highly talented route authors (both some of the very best freeware, and payware modellers - espcially folk known for the very best U.S. & German creations) that do make up part of the testing team. These are people that have a razor sharp eagled eye attention to detail. And a lot of pride in their own personal TS creative work. So it just doesn't make sense! I really don't think such 'players' would be missing many of the problems we keep on seeing. I guess if given very little time to look over content they might miss some of the smaller details, but even if testing time really tight I just can't see them missing any of the glaring mistakes/bugs.

I increasingly begin to suspect, it must be DTG management actively choosing to ignore reported bugs, and pushing ahead with DLC releases despite knowing there are (very) significant problems. That they're working to rigid unrealistic release dates, that management are sticking to regardless of whether newly created content actually ready or not. If this is the case, you begin to wonder whether there's any point in having a beta testing team at all!

I'd also like to know how DTG go about the testing. Do they have rigid check-lists to work through, and a centralised reporting software system to carefully log all bugs (no matter how big or small) and chart progress of such flagged bugs until they're signed off. Or is it a far more haphazard approach. Again, the shear large quantitiy of blatantly obvious bugs, both with routes and rolling stock models, makes one think it can't be a strict focused & targeted checklist approach. Whether management are solely to blame by knowingly pushing out hugely flawed content, and/or the beta testing team are not getting enough quality time for checks (or not checking in a systematic enough fashion) - someone in DTG has got to be honest about what it is that is going so wrong. And finally do something to stop continued unwanted repeats!

Come on DTG, you have the talent (some very skilled artists & developers), don't continue to let yourselves down as a team. Be honest about where it's going horribly wrong. Everyone, customers & staff alike would benefit from this being sorted once and for all.

 

Could be burnout mate, it's a terrible thing and can happen to any of us. Happened to me a couple of years ago, took a long time to get back to full form.

When the pace is relentless burnout is inevitable. The book below changed my whole ethos. It's clear by the dev process that DTG do not do AGILE. I wonder if Matt P is burning out. If so, he needs catching and looking after properly for a little while. It's easy to mask burnout with anti-anxiety meds, coffee, whatever your poison is, but the work that churns out is the first thing to suffer.



Also, this is the DTG dev team:

 

I find it highly unlikely that the route wasn't tested or that DTG didn't know about the issues. What's far more likely is that someone at some higher level didn't care and decided to push ahead with the launch anyway with a mentality of "we'll fix it later" or even worse, "whatever, not enough people will care". Let's be honest here, DTG has been pretty up front about quality not being a top priority and has the track record to match.

 

There is no way that the WCML South was released without multiple people knowing that it wasn't right. Obviously someone had the final say on whether it got released or not.

That person would no doubt be some sort of business manager tasked with balancing the books who doesn't really give a toss about quality.

 

From my experience in the world of work, the top managers only care about targets. They don’t care how realistic or stressful those targets are and they don’t listen to their staff. The amount of changes in my workplace by upper management over the past five years has been laughable - it’s like they don’t know what we actually do or what our role involves.

I suspect it’s the same at DTG. The people actually building the game are doing everything they can to make it a decent product, but they are not being allowed to do so. The DTG upper management really need to take a good hard look at this feedback. It’s their customers crying out. If you don’t care about your customers feedback, you might as well not even bother.

 

To be absolutely clear, I think that the people making the game are extremely talented and skilled people. TSW 2 in the most part looks amazing - there has clearly been a lot of effort put in. But it’s also obvious that corners have had to be cut to meet deadlines. It’s a shame because this could be an amazing product, not just a good product. I hope the teams making the game are given more time to let their obvious passions come to fruition.

 

I have a few years of experience with TS and I would happily volunteer to quality check any new route and report back with backing screenshots of what needs to be fixed as well as suggestions to improve things and point out bugs like lag etc. Personally I think DTG is still a great company overall and some of their content is amazing if the ECML South, South Wales and most of the London routes are anything to go by. But I am also very candid on my views and I don't sugar coat anything. I feel that DTG acknowledging the flaws with WCML South is the right thing to do and to make a patch and the fix the route to make it usable is a must if they are to start rebuilding bridges with the customers that buy their content with trust. Perhaps as a form of compensation to those that bought the route. I do have a suggestion. If you were to include the Northampton loop as an update to come later at no extra cost. Not only would this solve the lack of the Northampton loop but it would tremendously increase game play value for this new route and it would be a novel way of compensating those that were let down by the initial route that has lots of potential and I am sure that this would an effective way to show that DTG is a company that does care for its customers rather than profits.

 

Ok, my fault

 

I feel that they should've gone and seen someone internally, and made it clear that it was in an unreleaseable state. They could've then replaced it with a different route, and if all their advertising was already made, then include this for free when it is in a releaseable state.

As my father once told me - Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

 

I was one of the testers and scenario writers for the freeware version and after hundreds of hours with it I have NEVER had it dump me out.

 

Be interesting to hear from the DTG testers. I'm sure they're here somewhere!

 

Yes, I do think it is a great route. Just because Alan doesn't like it and had issues with it, doesn't mean I need to follow the same line of thought or that my opinion is any less than correct than his.

 

Of course he is allowed to have his own opinion, but this idea of late, that everyone's opinion is just as valid as everyone else's is nonsense. Your opinion is only valid if it's correct. This isn't subjective. It's not like saying "I like oranges, so therefore my opinion is just as valid as the guy who doesn't like oranges"; this is dealing with objective facts:The textures are pants; it runs badly; the windows in the Pendolino are opaque; The models for Euston and New Street are broken; it wasn't checked properly, the AI is appalling, and often ends the game due to collisions... I could go on... we've all reported these issues. These are facts. You can't argue with facts. Yes, anyone is entitled to an opinion that this is a great route... but they're also wrong. Once fixed, it WILL be a great route... but as is, anyone who thinks this is great... exactly as it is released, is actually wrong. He's entitled to be wrong... but he's still wrong.

 

Why does DTG "dangle the carrot"??? By that I mean in light of the current situation, so many negative comments, no one from DTG will step up to the plate and tell us what is happening...

Every now and again someone from DTG will make a brief comment on the forums but that's it, a small comment then nothing again for ages...

I think what frustrates me is that there's no transparency... Sure they've held their hands up in a fashion but we still don't know what's going on behind the scenes at DTG...

If there was more communication from DTG then I think the situation would be slightly eased... Ultimately, we just want to know what's going on and what's being done to rectify the situation...

Eric

 

Probably have to sign a non disclosure agreement!!!

Eric

 

Yes but they don't exactly respond regularly do they which is the point I am trying to make!!!

As i type this, in all the comments (60 odd) in this particular forum posting DTG have made ONE, just ONE post which was the opening post... There have been plenty of replies but NOT ONCE have DTG responded to anyone despite having the opportunity hence me saying "dangling the carrot"...

Eric

 

Thats' weird, my last post has disappeared... Oh well..

Regularly? This thread is less than 48 hours old. LOL. They already gave you a time line of a week to 10 days to fix the fundamentals.

 

it's always a suit. In my long, long career in education I've seen exactly the same. Great ideas ruined by suits. Managers are crap.
Their only raison d'être is to meet targets... at any cost... that's all they care about; Targets... KPIs... They're unimaginative morons usually. I've made it my default stance to distrust anyone who wears a suit for a living.

 

I think you'll find it a common theme, not just in this posting but in most others also, the lack of response from DTG... It's as if they'll poke their head above the water for a moment or so have a look around and then disappear again!!!

 

I work in the bus industry and a ops director who was a career busman one said to me the industry in now run by bean counters... They don't care about what our job actually involves - moving people, but if they can actually make money and 2 fingers up to granny jones if she can't get to the shops once a week...

Sounds like a similar philosophy to me...

Eric

 

Spot on.

 

Excuse me so opinions are now statements of facts are they, an opinion is just that? Just because the route has faults it doesn't stop anyone enjoying the route as it is. So yes his opinion, whether you like it or not, is valid, just because it doesn't chime with your opinion. Think it says a lot that you should try and belittle his opinion by linking a Youtube review.

He might think it is a great route or just a very good route, or just a good route with faults, that is his opinion and his experience.

I personally think the route has faults in the way it runs and that is why I haven't purchased it, but it is nice to see someone is enjoying it!

 

I'd say it was silly to judge people by the clothes they wear. I've met some outstandingly good managers that were suited and some poor ones that weren't. There's a reason people get promoted into management, and it's not for their degree of imbecility, it's for their ability to solve problems and get things done.

What's wrong with a target? it keeps you pointing in the right direction and allows you to judge how well your doing. The only problem is if you're told to shoot at the wrong target or it's too far for you to reach, but I've never yet met a manager that insisted on slavishly hitting a target at all costs.

With regards the criticism of DTG's management and their decision to launch, has anyone considered that they might have been given duff information about the state of WCML South?

If you want an example of the funny ways the human mind works consider the Ukrainian regional governor who asked the Site Director of the Chernobyl plant if the reactor was still intact, to be told that it was, even though the director knew the roof had blown off and the core was exposed to the stars! That lie delayed the evacuation of the local population. For some reason the director was unable to admit to the size of the catastrophe. It might be the same here.

 

Let me guess.. you're a manager?

In itself, nothing. Sticking to it when it becomes obvious it is untenable though is crazy, and I see managers doing this all the time, because it's THEIR target, they'll make sure it is met, and when the crap hits the fan, blame everyone else he tasked with making sure that target was met, despite being told by those who actually do the jobs required that it was a stupid target to begin with.

LOL.. then you've been living under a rock.

So it was the programmers, developers and testers fault... not management? Yeah... you're a manager alright. Then it STILL shouldn't have been allowed to be released. The decision to release it was STILL a management decision.

Yeah... you're so a manager... LOL

That's a terrible analogy. This isn't Soviet Russia... no one is going to ship you and your family off to Siberia or something if you don't toe the line. That's not actually even stupid behaviour: If you live in a regime that is brutal, and will punish you for telling the truth if that truth hurts the party... that's NORMAL behaviour. It's called survival.

No... don't be silly. If management of this project was great, then it would have never seen the light of day. Think about it: If developers were to blame, then why didn't management KNOW this prior to release, and even they did, why did they agree to release it? It all smacks of a rigid, inflexible adherence to a deadline that wasn't being met - not only that, but those that set the deadline didn't even notice it wasn't being met. Are you telling me a decent manager wouldn't have realised this was all going pear shaped WEEKS ago?

I've held management positions. I know what it is to be a manager, and I also know what it is to be a GOOD manager - nothing about this speaks of good management.

As for your opening point... anyone who makes you wear a suit when all you do is sit in an office is an idiot. If anyone insisted I wear a suit to just sit behind a desk, I'd resign.

 

It's been 48 hours... and it;'s weekend. It's Sunday... Bloody hell man!

 

if that were true, managers wouldn't insist staff wear a suit in the first place. They do this because they are convinced people DO judge people by how they dress. If they didn't, then what would it matter if a manager wears a tshirt and jeans, or a suit?

 

As a manager, wouldn't you want to personally see one of the company's biggest annual releases before it goes out? If not to check quality (which might be advisable) then simply out of interest.

Most companies I've worked for (admittedley not software, but I don't see why they should be any different here), management would want a personal demo/presentation at critical stages of a product's development. Just to check all good and to help put things back on track, if something not right. Besides anything else it's very important for management to show active interest for team moral. If a team think their management don't give a damn about their work, I'd strongly suggest they're likely not to perform at their best. Everyone likes their egos massaged - & quite rightly so, we all need to feel valued.

Combine this with the fact that most of the senior management at DTG are (supposedly) self proclaimed huge rail enthusiasts, not just in real-life but also train simulation - so again you might think they'd be curious to have a good look at what their artists/developers have been working hard on. If they truly haven't got the time for a quick 30 minute demo, then there's something seriously wrong with DTG's management setup. Perhaps it is the case that what was a very small company just a few years ago, has grown too rapidly - & mangement can't keep-up. I just don't know why they're so struggling with QA! I just desperately hope it's something they can finally get a grip on, as the company continues to evolve.

 

I think the issue is less to do with the QA testers themselves, and more to do with management setting a deadline that meant pretty much anything the testers flagged couldn't be fixed, and I don't think anyone has the guts to go to management and say "we need more time". I think all DTG management is worried about is money, and seemingly don't care about the quality of the product delivered, because they know people WILL buy something, no matter how bad that something is.

Clearly the managers there are actually interested in delivering a descent product. It seems the management at DTG are only interested in the money, and it's been that way for years (see, for example, the FCC Class 321 or the FGW Class 150/1)

 

If you're a moderator of a forum you have to be awake 24/7 and personally reply to every comment that appears on said forum and you're not allowed any breaks for any reason even if you're so ill your legs are about to drop off. Or something...

 

I would have thought it would have been pulled off Steam until it was fixed, but it's still there. Isn't that a bit unfair to those that don't watch a review of it first? To be honest... I didn't. I just bought it. I think you should withdraw it from sale until it's fixed. It's just going to create more complaints from people who aren't on this forum to see your posts about repairing it.

 

I thought so too, I imagine it's not been taken down because it's hot off the press AND included in TS2021: Deluxe Edition.

Maybe also post it as a news article on Steam?

 

People moaning at DTG not replying to comments. You guys all realise it’s the weekend? Sam has issued the statement as above, admitting it is not up to standard and has actually apologised. Yes this should never have happened but at least they have acknowledged this major f**k up and will be rectifying it. I’m sure DTG will follow up on this thread from tomorrow, onwards. I just hope hope hope DTG gather every single report on here, YouTube, Twitch and from the well renowned community to fix all the minor & major problems to get this route up to a standard we are all happy with.

 

As a Moderator for three and an Admin of two forums over the years I can unequivocally tell you that you're talking out of your arse!

I will however assume you were being tongue in cheek so take my reply as such too

 

I thought I had read some patronising rubbish in my time, till I read this thread! Just because people wear a suit, I wear a suit to work and no I am not a manager!

And now this gleeful forensic investigation into what may or may not have happened. Yes the route has some detail faults, yes the frame rates were poor, yes the stream was a car crash but there are some people happily using the route so it isn't so bad as some on here want to believe it is like a watching a bunch of vultures feasting on a carcass! It is as if some major disaster has happened and we are watching 24 hour news coverage of experts detailing what may or may not have happened. If you purchase it and don't like it you can get a refund, no one has died!

No-one here knows the internal workings of DTG so it is all speculation!

 

I tried the route last night mate, I was finally well enough to give it my attention.

And I turned it off after ten minutes and decided that I will wait for the update fix.

Why the caustic tone to people wanting to thrash out why they just got bum rushed again? Do people not deserve answers?

 

DTG are looking into it, it is a weekend give them a day off!

I just don't understand what this is going to achieve? The reason I may feel a little caustic is that someone dares to offer an alternative point of view of their own experience and they are almost met with derision because it doesn't match the general agenda which seems to be going on here. All this will do is lead to another huge amount of anti-DTG feeling.

 

I managed to get acceptable frame rates from the route but I had to turn the graphics right down to get it playable.

Here is the video I have done and apologies if the graphics look like its from a Nintendo N64!


Hopefully once the fix is out. I should be able to turn the graphics settings back up again .

 

I think it's pretty obvious it was poorly managed. Precisely why, you're right... we'll never know... but the buck stops with management. No matter what the cause, it was decided that it was to be released... That's a management decision. (shrug).

 

Those frame rates look terrible to me.

 

I have to agree on that. It was a lot worse on default graphics setting trust me. DTG should hopefully fix this with the patch.

 

I'm not anti-DTG. I'm pro DTG, I buy everything that interests me that they release, when the quality is right. Hell, sometimes, I've just gone and bought something with a view that I'll fix it myself. I support DTG financially, I haven't refunded the deluxe or the TSW2 pack.

I'm anti-rubbish. That's what I stand for. I don't like sub standard things. Who does except for masochists?

 

If I'm perfectly honest - I think a lot of people feel ripped off and they need to vent their frustration. I also feel it's necessary for DTG to see how annoyed people are at them for this in a vague hope they'll look in a mirror and think "yeah, we need to change something".

 

Yes I get that, but this is going on after they have acknowledged and apologised and said they are looking into it. I think it was obvious in the stream, initial feedback, requests for refunds and steam reviews that DTG had dropped the ball on this route.

DTG's record on route building has been very good for years, their stock might be missing a little something sometimes but very few people slate their route building so it is not exactly as if this is the latest in a long line of bad routes. Even most Youtube reviews acknowledge that, unless they have an axe to grind.

 

I think what people may be afraid of, myself included, is that no lessons will be learned here, again.

This isn't the first time we've all been here.

I have a copy of TSW2 that does an UE dump on me every time I attempt to use it. This isn't the time for fervent defensive conversation.

A mere forum post doesn't tell me things are going to change.

 

While I've not specifically bought a product to fix it, I did buy the new LNER HST day one, heard the sounds, and then fixed them to use the AP Enhancement Pack and got a patch out like 2 days after the HST was released (I've since updated it).

Of course some people weren't happy with it because all it does is reference the sounds from the AP EP (hence why it's required), and I selected the sounds based on personal preference. Like, do your own. It was only meant to be a placeholder till someone made a proper sound patch anyway.