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West Coast Main Line South Improvements

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DTG Protagonist, Sep 18, 2020.

  1. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    We would like to thank players of Train Simulator 2021 who have taken their time to give us comprehensive feedback about their experiences with the game so far. Suffice to say that this feedback has not made for the easiest of reading, and neither should it.

    The performance of West Coast Main Line falls a long way short of what you should expect and what we intend to deliver. As such we are working on multiple updates to this route to address the criticism it has received. Following investigation overnight we have determined that the current low frame rates experienced by many, if not all, players comes as a result of a couple of areas we have identified in the rolling stock. To that end we will make a priority update in the short term that improves frame rate performance. This should improve frame rates on the WCML South for all players.

    Supplemental updates will address scenery and other areas that have been observed and reported. To ensure we are tackling as much as possible, and if you would like to help, any further problems you can identify would be appreciated.

    The first update is being worked on now, and we are targeting within the next week to 10 days. We will follow up on this thread throughout next week to ensure you are kept up to date.

    We are postponing the stream on Saturday as we do not feel it is appropriate to promote the game while one of its headline components falls short of both your and our expectations.

    We want to take this opportunity to apologise to players who feel let down by this release. We are reviewing our handling of new releases in light of these problems to ensure this situation is not repeated.

    **Update: The update for WCML is now live. Many thanks for being patient throughout while this was being resolved.
    Please see this thread for a detailed explanation about what's been fixed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2020
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  2. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    While it should never have come to this, as SOMEONE inside should have raised the red flag on these issues and halted the launch, it is appreciated that Dovetail is willing to fess up to the problems and at least pledge to make them right.
     
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  3. h4178

    h4178 New Member

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    I agree, Its ok vouching for the testers fully knowing that It hasn't. If it has been tested then the Integrity of the testers is in question.

    Take a leaf from PenninePacer for example on route building. I'm glad that DTG have held up their hands and realised that it was a poor quality of route to release.
     
  4. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Sam,

    I know this couldn't have been easy to say, nor was it fun to watch you on the stream struggling with the frame rate issues. Hopefully the issues will be resolved in a quick manor.

    I hope this sheds a light on the testers to be more thorough in there testing to ensure that things like this do not happen in the future.
     
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  5. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    Oh wow nice
     
  6. DrTrenchcoat

    DrTrenchcoat New Member

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    While I appreciate that DTG is willing to actually bugfix a product for once, I find it absurd that the performance issues caused by the 390 were not known of beforehand. The virgin 390 has been known to run poorly ever since release, but was never fixed. I hope DTG actually supporting a product after release is not a one off thing, and that this level of support is provided to other DTG releases.
     
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  7. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I am pleased that this will actually be resolved. When the route is of sufficient quality I will no doubt purchase it. Until then, the £40 will be spent on other games.

    Once this route has been fixed and made enjoyable, please can other broken products be looked into.

    The TGV had a fix promised, but a year later there is zero sign and zero communication from DTG. It's a DLC I want, but I won't be buying in the current state.

    There's also a number of routes with completely broken quick drives or signalling that doesn't function. They should never have been abandoned in that state...
     
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  8. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    I'm still ready to be part of the team Sam :)

    Look at what you can do to TS with a little time and effort on my RailPunk channel, purely set up to show how far you can push things without even digging into source code. Bit like what BR did with the IC125 - the APT-P really was ahead of its time, but because of that it needed a lot more development. The IC125 was exactly right for the time, sure, it lacked the inspirational vision of the tilting train, but it was reasonably reliable and it did what it said on the tin, 125mph.

    I've watched the development release cycle from the outside for over a year now, and have gone from mildly frustrated TSW PS4 Pro player to TS20XX locomotive builder in that time. TSW(2) truly is great at reeling you in, but then the cracks appear and because the mechanics aren't deep or highly customisable, player interest wanes.

    If I remember correctly, I jumped in at TS2018, and had held off on rail simulation for years, purely because I felt the standard of product compared to the cost didn't weigh up. Even after jumping in, I soon discovered that I'd have to be doing a lot of messing around to get the experience I felt was satisfactory. And that's just satisfactory - really, we want to be aiming for the stars. Go out to truly amaze people at what is available to them.

    All of the ingredients are there, but something is missing.

    If anything, to resolve this, DTG could attempt to acquire the freeware route, and repack the assets. Surely that would have been the sensible way to bring this route to market? Somebody already invented the wheel, it didn't need inventing again.
     
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  9. Dark_Centurion

    Dark_Centurion New Member

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    The freeware route has major issues. The stations at Euston and New Street are literal concrete slabs compared to the nice assets DTG have come out with for the route. The track is wrong, for example the massive gradient at Euston that almost makes the Lickey incline a doddle. Performance on that route is very bad, when creating realistic scenarios that take every single real timing, the route will dump after just filling Euston in, while other routes with a London terminus deal with the traffic just fine. Reinvent the wheel? The "wheel" that we had was square. It needed doing properly, and now it needs finishing properly.
     
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  10. car147

    car147 New Member

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    Appeciate the response DTG, sadly it should never have happened and would have been far better to just say, we're having issues or need longer to finalise the WCML South Route and folk would have been understanding. I was that annoyed at the time i just went straight for a refund... I could'nt believe in this day and age something could be released in such a state.
    Hopefully you get it sorted, and you never know i may look at it again.
     
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  11. topgearatuk

    topgearatuk Member

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    what happened to all of the players feedback from the catch? im guessing that didnt make good reading either, and in your own words, neither should it have. but how come you have abandoned the catch and updating this game straight away? favouring 1 side of your player base really isnt the way to run a company
     
  12. Trainmania100

    Trainmania100 Active Member

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    Thankyou Dovetail games for listening to feedback and acting on this, it will build more trust with players
     
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  13. AlexTheMole

    AlexTheMole Active Member

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    Fair play to DTG for addressing the issues and being transparent about their plans to make the route closer to what it should be. Yes it's bad that it happened in the first place, but they are at least dealing with it which is not a given in the modern video game world. ;)
     
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  14. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Active Member

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    Very good statement from DTG, well done. Ticks all the boxes and lets hope things improve from here.
     
  15. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Member

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    Thanks for the announcement Sam. This shouldn’t have been released in it‘s current state and I‘m glad an announcement has been made.

    Just to make a point though. A lot of people have been having a go at the Testers. How do you know what they raised? The testers may have found a lot of these issues but they don’t get to make the decision whether it gets released. It’s whoever signed off the release that is responsible and for sure that was management.
     
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  16. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the apology.
     
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  17. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I don't, but on teh stream last night, it was made pretty clear that the game had been tested. At 58:47 I quote..
    If that was said knowing that the game had been tested and reported as having manifold problems, then that is a wee bit dishonest. If it was said not knowing, then there's some issues with communication at DTG.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  18. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, DTGs testing process doesn't actually involve fixing the faults...
     
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  19. omegamezle

    omegamezle New Member

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    I mean the Class 350 in most places literally looks photoshopped in but that's another thing I suppose.
     
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  20. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Still a better logical starting point than to go balls deep and rebuild from scratch. Waste of time, waste of resources.
     
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  21. NYIslanders0902

    NYIslanders0902 Member

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    How long do we have to wait?
     
  22. WhippleStripper

    WhippleStripper Member

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    Protagonist, thank you for your statement. A serious mistake was made at release but I'm grateful that this is now recognised and a plan is in place to resolve.

    If the fps problem is resolved and the more serious asset errors and misplacements fixed, then I will definitely buy it.
     
  23. ajwilson1889

    ajwilson1889 Member

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  24. brummie

    brummie Member

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    I was massively disappointed with this route launch. Watched the stream last night as I intended to buy this as a stand alone route, but decided not to. I couldn't believe what I was seeing, it was so bad, enough said.
    Glad it has been explained what DTG intend to do about this, and will hopefully buy it if it is fixed correctly in the near future.

    Seems to me it was just rushed out to meet a very tight timeline to launch with TS2021. This has to be the worst product they have ever put out to general sale! Normally DTG are quite good with most of their offerings, but at least we now have hope that they do intend and will put things right with their promised upcoming patch fixes.
     
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  25. F1STC

    F1STC New Member

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    Hi,

    I've been making a scenario for the WCML South route this evening and have found it difficult to route trains the way I'd like them as there is a lack of routing points close to Euston. For example, as trains leave Euston on the slow lines they want to run the
    wrong line through the first tunnel. They then want to cross over to the Up Fast whilst passing Willesden and again after passing through Wembley, this is slightly frustrating as I have to manually route the trains using my own destination markers. It would be great if there could be some added in by default. I understand this is likely to be a very low priority addition, but it would be very useful if this could be added.

    I have attached some images of locations that I have added if this will help with deciding where new ones should be added:
    20200918212848_1.jpg 20200918212857_1.jpg 20200918212912_1.jpg 20200918212920_1.jpg
    It would be a great help if some of these could be featured by default, anyhow, thanks for the nice long route, always great to have a lengthy route. I hope I will enjoy it even more after the updates.

    Thanks,
    Thomas
     
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  26. JCW98

    JCW98 New Member

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    I'm glad that you've announced an update, I have a few suggestions that may be worth looking at:

    - The 390 still doesn't have the step board simulated when the doors are open. This is something that the old Pendolino had and should really be included with the new one.
    - The era that the route is set in is not consistent. Station signage and clutter varies too much across different brands. Canley, for example, has station signs in WMT colours, whereas all other Birmingham-area stations have Network West Midlands Branding. Stations south of (and including) Milton Keynes Central have London Midland colour schemes, and Rugby and Birmingham International are still using Virgin-style station signs. Surely with the Avanti license you could also make appropriate station clutter.
    - The platform placements are also poor. Some platforms are too high, some are too low, and some are too close to the track resulting in the train cutting through the side of the platform.

    May seem very nit-picky, but for £24.99 I think these are fair points.
     
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  27. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    He literally answered that question in his statement...
     
  28. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    The release of this route in such a poor state, whereby a live stream by the company could not be and was not defended by Sam has clearly highlighted a significant internal issue with DTG’s quality control and testing processes. It is therefore vital that DTG gets to the bottom of this to find out what happened and why it happened as there has been a serious breakdown somewhere for this to be released in such a shoddy state.

    Although I’m not affected by this, as I don’t play TS, an apology is very welcome, but it means nothing if lessons aren’t learned.

    TS aside, players of TSW 2020 and TSW 2 have been raising countless issues with sound, textures, signalling and performance bugs and have been doing so for as long as I’ve been a member of the forums and even long before then. I’ve raised a lot of issues myself.

    Whilst the games are never going to be perfect, it feels to me that the products are being rushed out the door for whatever reason and this is resulting in countless issues reaching the end user. This might not actually be true, but it is how it is being perceived by me and a lot of dedicated, loyal DTG customers and this is a dangerous track to be on. Once you lose your most dedicated and loyal customers, willing to hand over huge amounts of their hard earned money, what is left?

    A reputation can take years to build, but just seconds to destroy. Every manager at DTG must now reassess their priorities.

    Do you want quality over quantity?

    Are you going to take issues seriously?

    Are you going to spend the time and effort delivering a quality product before it ever sees the light of day?

    As paying customers, we demand quality for our money and whilst we can overlook odd issues or quirks with the game (because nothing is perfect), the list of issues and quirks being reported and remaining unfixed is getting longer and longer by each passing day and will continue to do so if something doesn’t change. Only DTG knows what is going on internally and only DTG can do anything about it. The issues should be nipped in the bud before release, not after an outcry from your customers.

    Hopefully they do the right thing. And if they do, I wish them every success and I will continue giving them my hard earned money.

    I really do love TSW 2 and have plenty of money set aside for the new roadmap stuff, but only if the quality is good enough.

    For what it’s worth, in addition to the apology provided by Sam today, I think DTG should tell us why this release went so wrong and what they intend to do to ensure it doesn’t happen again.
     
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  29. Odd1ne

    Odd1ne Member

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    I was so excited about this route I was going to get it but after seeing the stream I was put off. Nice to see you actually acknowledging there are issues when if it takes a month get it done properly and show everyone what you can do as some routes you do are brilliant.

    I still have faith in you lot hopefully you can sort this route and give it the polish it deserves.
     
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  30. NYIslanders0902

    NYIslanders0902 Member

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    I did?
     
  31. WVUadam

    WVUadam Active Member

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    This does also question other routes that have frame rate issues, bad quality assets , textures. Something in the development pipeline isn't working. If content is being rushed out to meet deadlines something needs to change. Over 10 years you have experience in creating routes when a piece of content is released like this, doesn't look good.
     
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  32. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree.
     
  33. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    What’s worrying is that nobody in Dtg had the ability or balls to halt the launch.
    If they were able to delay the launch of Tsw to address concerns, that should have happened here.
    That suggests that management/marketing have too much influence.
     
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  34. ajwilson1889

    ajwilson1889 Member

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    I stopped playing TS and moved to TSW which I absolutely love, I intend to purchase many of the road map items but for me this is a bit of a worry. I watched the stream the other night and couldn't believe how this got to release and if it can happen on TS whats to stop the TSW2 DLC being subject to the same issues. Personally now I dont think it can do any harm for DTG to come clean and say exactly how and why this happened, I would really appreciate an honest appraisal no matter how brutal it sounds
     
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  35. ChiefJackYT

    ChiefJackYT New Member

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    Hi Sam,

    I’m extremely grateful that DTG as a company have recognised their mistakes and are looking to rectify them over the coming weeks.

    You say in your post that the frame rate issues are due to some issues with the rolling stock. While that’s true (especially the 390), I also think think the track and/or weather are causing some frame rate issues. I say this because I installed the Armstrong Powerhouse Track EP and Sky & Weather EP yesterday and saw a 10 FPS boost around much of the route. Therefore, I think this is another area that needs investigating.

    Thanks a lot for being open with the community!
     
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  36. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Just to say, that if you fix it, I will buy it again. You've no idea how much I wanted this route to be good.
     
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  37. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    This is welcome news as I had intended to purchase it this weekend and watching the stream was a bit like a horror show and completely turned me off the route.

    I will await developments with interest.
     
  38. bellminsterboy

    bellminsterboy New Member

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    I'm going to take a different view from the many on here and in the community - this is a great route: I really enjoyed doing a full length run between London Euston and Birmingham New Street. There are some frame rate issues, which can cause in a small number of places, principally between Harrow and Wembley, scenery to not appear. All of these issues are improved when one turns graphics settings down - it's not rocket science! I usually play on high or very high settings, and things improved when I turned it down towards medium. It still looked great. There are no missing assets on the route itself, I can see that by going to the editor. I've yet to drive the 350, so can't comment on that.
    CONS
    - occasional little freeze, but only for a second or so
    - occasional invisible overhead wires, but much improved by running it on lower settings
    - Voyager looks great, but is not nice to drive, feels quite clunky and slow to react; doesn't sound like a Voyager either, and I don't often have issues with the way DTG trains sound.
    - No Coventry Cathedral model - feel this is a significant landmark on route and can be seen for some distance.
    - Euston's terminal end of the station feels incomplete.
    - Don't appear to be any passengers on the platforms themselves anywhere on route
    PROS
    - Very long route, amongst the longest yet released excluding those which have been extended, for example Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea.
    - Beautifully modelled for the most part, visually impressive with lots of high quality trees on route.
    - Runs very nicely for the most part on medium settings.
    - Pendolino is a fantastic train; looks good, sounds good and is a pleasure to drive.
    - Lots of AI traffic in Quick Drive, which makes it more interesting.
    - Significant amount of rolling stock included with purchase, which makes it good value for money.
    - Extensive quick drive options for all three lines - D.C, slow and fast lines.
    - Many recognizable landmarks on route
    - Stations modelled well, including Birmingham New Street.
    A patch for the frame rate would be good, but I have very few issues playing it on lower settings, and it's one that I enjoyed very much and will continue to enjoy. Good job, 8/10.

    I am grateful that you've realised the errors and are working hard to fix them.
     
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  39. martschuffing

    martschuffing Member

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    Happy in one respect that DtG has held their hands up on this one, it is a pretty shonky release at best.
    Research, was it done properly I wonder? Well, judging by the walls running out of New Street I'd say no.
    1h:19m in
    And where is the Iconic BT tower?
     
  40. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    It is important to remain optimistic about whatever fixes are promised, but it is also equally as important to recognise the value of constructive criticism and why being critical is important. Without a critical eye ruthlessly going over things, nothing improves, nothing gets better and nothing changes.

    The objections of critics are very important. Critics should be welcomed here, there is much to sort.
     
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  41. martschuffing

    martschuffing Member

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    "I'm going to take a different view from the many on here and in the community - this is a great route:"
     
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  42. catsrcool

    catsrcool New Member

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  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    He is allowed to have his own opinion. Just because a youtube review says it is rubbish, if someone owns the route and has driven they are just as qualified to give their opinion just as much as the great youtube superstars! If they think it is a good route then that is just as valid!

    It was the frame rates which stopped me purchasing it, there are glitches at Euston as explained on the very fair Trainsim TV review but they are minor and easily fixed. The route has many good points and looks very good in many areas also commented on in the Trainsim TV review. I notice the Trainsim TV review had much better frame rates the the live stream.
     
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  44. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I think you miss the point. Telling those with RTX2080Ti graphics cards to turn their settings down and run at 1080p is not really something that should ever need to be said. It didn't make much of a difference for Sam either during the live stream. He did what you suggested, and it still ran like sloth on barbiturates.
     
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  45. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    I bought the deluxe, and haven't asked for a refund - I'll put up a video at some point, but no rush.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - but there is a universal truth here. Things could have gone much better with probably a small amount of extra effort.
     
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  46. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. It does. Bletchley looks great! However... as a full price payware release... one with such fanfare and anticipation... it sucked. We're glad it's being addressed, and no one is saying it doesn't have good point.. great points even, but when you're giving bug reports and critical feedback to DTG, what's great is not important... they need to know what is bad.

    You are right though... if the tragic parts of this rushed and incomplete route are fixed, I will certainly be re-buying it.
     
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  47. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    Ok... I'm guessing you aren't reading things clearly. Or you're just not reading at all.

    The Original Poster mentioned in the statement that you quoted, the amount of time it would take to get the route sorted out while you were asking how long it's going to take.

    I then quoted your response basically telling you, that your question was already answered in his statement... and you're still confused:|
     
  48. SÜWEX

    SÜWEX New Member

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    I have now specially registered to write something about it.
    I am happy and annoyed at the same time about what is happening here. Surely it is more than happy that something is being fixed here. You don't really know that from DTG. I mean, the TS21 was really meagre in comparison to the TS19 with 64 bit (which was very necessary and I thank DTG for this until today) or the TS20 with the graphic settings, which was also very nice and is used by many people. But in the TS21 "only" the workshop was/is a bit weak.
    I am all the more pleased that DTG is merciful with the WCML and admits mistakes. Certainly not everybody likes to do that, me neither. But what annoys me even more is that the Frankfurt Koblenz Route is almost unplayable. Most of the signals do not work at all. So they show everything. No matter if red, yellow or green. Everything possible, but no logical combination.That the landscaping is not right (for example, the vines are missing everywhere, which makes up the Middle Rhine Valley) or that there are defective turnouts, I still overlook that and say yes ok Noboy is perfect, but if you complain to DTG and get an answer according to the motto we don't care, then I wonder what is going wrong at DTG.
    In the biggest German forum there are too many complaints about the Route, one user even writes to the support and gets to hear:

    "Thank you for contacting us regarding an issue with the Koblenz- Frankfurt Route Add on.
    Unfortunately, there is a known issue with various signals on this Route, sometimes presenting as all lights on. We value your feedback and please accept our apologies for any inconvenience caused. This issue has been documented and flagged for further investigation by the development team. At this time we do not have any further updates.
    I would recommend monitoring our official community channels for updates to this product
    This includes our support on this matter and ticket will now be closed. Please feel free to contact us again if you need any help with any other matter"
    Kind Regards,
    Chris Medlock"

    This is evidence of disinterest. Therefore, dear DTG team, if you are already patching the WCML, please also fix Frankfurt Koblenz. It doesn't have to be a showcase Route like Münster Bremen or Konstanz Villingen, but at least the signal errors and the wrong speeds in the Frankfurt area could be fixed without having disco signals.
    I can only advise DTG to listen to the German users if you take the trouble to contact the support.
    With Nuremberg Regensburg or Kiel Lübeck they have shown that they can build reasonably. Why not also with Frankfurt Koblenz?
    In this sense, thank you for your attention and have a nice day.
     
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  49. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    I really agree with your comments. Frankfurt Koblenz was a route that really interested me. I was willing to pay full price (something I don't often do) until I heard the amount of issues it has.

    Train Simulator needs more than a one time fix. There are a number of routes where quick drives are unplayable, scenarios don't work and signalling is beyond wrong.

    It's coming increasingly obvious that DTG treats their products as abandonware, and couldn't care about user experience. The TGV pack still needs fixes promised nearly two years ago.

    The copy paste responses from Customer Service are also getting annoying. What's the point of reporting issues if they're logged and never resolved?

    To this day, I've still not logged a single ticket that has actually had a bug fix. That says it all.
     
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  50. Trainman525

    Trainman525 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
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    One question for DTG, As well as all the other bugs, could you please rotate the platforms so that they correctly align with the train carriages. At one end the platform is too far away, at the other the platform is in the train. And I have noticed a couple of wobbly lines in some platform assets are these intentional? An example would be at Watford Junction, Between the Mainline and the London Overground Terminus platforms, the mainline platform far edge (Away form the train doors).
     
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