Look, we are not talking about a bar, we are talking about two different pair of shoes. Also remember: Dont make the mistake to think that the way YOU experience and play Train Sim World is the only one. There are several different ways to enjoy and to play Train Sim World and yours is a rather hardcore one and with that you are mostly a minority in the whole playerbase. That does in no way mean that your raised issues are less important or bad, the priority to fix these things are just not that high as whether there is a problem with a feature that is used by a lot of people. You can dislike that and I can feel that, but DTG decides its bugfixing priority after how many people are affected and how critical is the issue (service not completable due to crash or a red signal bug).
I don't think that's the case, for me the baseline experience I would expect from a simulator is not "I can go from A to B" but rather "I can realistically go from A to B". It's clear we have two different opinions, no point to try and fight, I made the mistake of presenting my opinion as fact, and apologised for it earlier, you can have a different opinion, which I admit is probabily more popular and represents a larger portion of the playerbase, but I will maintain my position on the matter - even if it might seem somewhat elitist. I agree, but if that is the case (and I believe it is), then Matt shouldn't sound so surprised on the Q&A stream saying "how could anyone ever think TSW is not a simulator?" when "realistic" is no longer the baseline the answer becomes obvious. I'm not even talking about some fancy features like EBuLa or fully working GSM-R. I'm talking about a major safety system being completely unusable. And again, I generally tend to agree with how DTG manages bug fixes, but in this case when we talk about inability to experience a realistic simulation, IMO those should be almost as bad as a complete game breaking issue, just like PZB was treated for HHL.
I can understand how my opinion is coming across as hypocritical. My reason for the conclusion that I have come to is that Adam has assured us (the community) in the most recent roadmap stream that the fixes to RT have been completed so I remain optimistic that eventually they pass QA, a patch is released and the issue resolved. Although Sean has acknowledged SHG are currently in discussions with someone over the audio, they have communicated no such intentions that inspire any reason to believe the other issues will be rectified. It is questionable to me why DTG as the publisher authorised content in such condition to be released and my views and support in favour of DTG as a developer are subject to change, dependent on their course of action taken over the coming months. Despite the many frustrations many of us in the community share, I will likely continue to find enjoyment in TSW. It's just I may be a little more considerate about the amount of money I am throwing at it in future.
So, I am not sure why this thread bubbled up. Do we have a concrete date for the updates now? Or are we just gonna sit and wait until they get the audio so they can push one update or something? I own all routes and trains in TSW and I am just going to skip any and all skyhook content until they fix basic functionality of the BR 187. I have had enough with their stalling. How hard it is to fix your stuff that should have been working in the first place.
I am feeling with you on this one! I have not had such a bad feeling with any other add on for TSW… ever… I have mentioned this already in another thread and will repeat it again. Of course, the overall quality of this product was poor (except visuals, maybe), however, when I saw that the markings were copied from the BR147 (which is the passenger sister loco of the 187) I must say I really felt ripped off as a paying customer! How can something obvious as this can be missed?! I immediately got it refunded and am not willing to pay anything for it until it is fully functional! Not even for a 75% discount! And I do acknowledge that there may be a customer base out there to whom this kind of product is appealing enough, however, it’s not me. Unfortunately it made me very suspicious towards this developer and it will be hard for them to convince me to buy something of them any time soon. Also the fact that they are now talking since months to someone over the sounds, does not make me hopeful anything will happen any time soon. To my knowledge the other issues have not even been directly acknowledged as bugs?! On the other hand, I don’t really care, I will consider buying it when it is fixed, if not I will simply stay away from it…
Guys? Guys ... You're going to fix it now that we've already given you our money, right? . . . Guys...?
Ok I stand corrected but I do not understand why you are so keen to defend them on this topic considering I have bought this DLC and have actually supported them in that respect whereas you on the other hand...
Yep, true, and I guess, anybody needs to decide where one leaves their money. With the 187 it was part of the whole package and I may not have been clear on this, this particular one was the tip of the iceberg for me. This sort of thing is even fairly quickly solved with a mod on PC but I am paying money for this. On one side I get for the same price add ons like a BR101 or a G6 and on the other a Standard like the 187. It’s up to anybody to decide for themselves. I am happy to pay the full price if the quality is right.
Im not the one saying he's going to refuse to buy anything from them again... I'll take each route on its own merit and if its not for me then I will feedback constructively why this is the case. Im not defending anyone, just curious why you are taking such a stance with them but then happy to continue buying DTG routes when they have similar issues.
I am not defending DTG here, but with DTG, they have the preservation crew who are more visible. They usually acknowledge the issues there and do not stay silent. You can always count on that issue being patched with one of the patch days, they have reserved. What is frustrating here is that, there has not been an official communication from Skyhook and that BR 187 loco DLC was released in October. Even accounting for holidays, they should have fixed at least the core game play issues by now. This is not their first loco either. I am a believer in giving developers a long rope. I bought their cane creek route as well, which was broken when it launched. The the BR 187 happened and it was revealed only in the preview stream that the audio was wrong completely blindsiding the community. But I was one of those people who don't nitpick on audio because I don't have powerful stereos. But their core game play is broken and is still broken with not a patch date or info in site. We have had a couple, they responded to a thread/tweet with we are working on it. But clearly, they are working on Horseshoe curve, which I have zero confidence will launch unbroken. I have run out of patience. Will I buy them? Maybe, when they get to the bargain bin. I will not buy them full price on launch date again until they figure it out. Also, I am sorry for the rant.
The problem with TSW 2 across the board is that fixes are taking too long to come out, surely there’s a better balance to be found between fixing content, and releasing new content, personally I’m at the point where buying new content is just not happening, because of how much content I own having various issues which stem to much more than just missing features. Matt mentioned only the other day how important a livery is to a train simulator, so when it comes to the implementation of safety systems and an accurate representation of the loco, surely they are just as, if not more important? For me I see no point in paying a premium price when the content isn’t all that premium. The BR187 as it stands is basically a reskinned, less functional 185. DTG are doing much better now, obviously still some issues, but that’s for another thread. When it comes to Rivet & Skyhook, why would I invest more money into their products when they release in a lower standard when compared to other content, and then have to wait a ridiculous length of time for any issues to be solved. The whole situation with the 187 just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, as I understand it, Skyhook were at one point in a position to make sounds for this loco, and due to issues that aren’t entirely (or at all) in their control, that fell through, however surely dev time must of been allotted to the sounds since it was their plan for the loco in the first place, so how is it that we end up with a reused sound file, which isn’t even the most recent file for the particular loco they got it from, and have the loco release in such a poor state that even the exterior was not correct, let alone the safety systems. Seems to me that Skyhook just wanted to release it and give up on it, regardless of where they are at the moment with upcoming fixes, it has certainly done irreparable damage to my attitude towards their products.
Its not an excuse for bad quality, devs are usually good in creating software. Not having the technical knowledge about trains? Probably tsg has in deeph knowledge but its simply just not possible to have both. The most important thing in any dlc for prevenring customer damage is to get the right people involved, this can be dtg, a real driver of the loco etc. The guy which provided the information about the 187 is a real driver, skyhook wasnt the direct business partner, but he never got asked for beta testing. I can also live with the sound because it wasnt available, but hell skyhook why you spend so much effort and go in that risky path without beta testing. Working with dtg was the best decision for getting things released the right way. I really dont understand people beeing inpatient because of that. Same with rivets 150, not going to blame a software programmer about not having the train knowledge. From where should he know how a torq converter works? Not involving a single driver, not involving the people can judge its quality was the major point. Well i have a small hope with skyhook it takes a good direction, without ending up with a steam rating of 25%
Because it's currently 60% off on steam I took the plunge mostly to see if it was as bad as everyone makes out. Sadly the answer is yes it is as bad as everyone says. Not knowing the real loco I can live with the sounds, but with AFB and LZB both rhubarded its impossible to drive realistically on Koln Aachen and I've got to question why and who choose one of just 3 possible LZB routes for this? The engine room is also ugly and for a minute I thought I'd loaded up MSTS in error. Also RD support has no AFB controls that seem to work. Is it the worst Loco in my collection? Possibly not, but currently it's ranked in the top 5 worst.
Probabily the same that realised that the timetable was going to be extremely easy, just A-B copy/paste from the freight layer, while also making sure that everyone that has the base game can buy the locomotive.
The thing is, while 187 sound was precluded due to the Black Death, Skyhook did not have to re-use the universally-excoriated sounds from the older ex-TSW1 185, because DTG had the revised, much improved sounds for the Dresden 185.
Nobody is blaming one person or single developer, Skyhook as an entity failed with the BR187, the same way that Rivet have failed as an entity to properly implement transmissions. There is no expectation of a particular software programmer knowing all the ins and outs of a particular locomotive, that’s the studios’ responsibility as a whole.
60% off now, but still no update. Hard pass for me, even tho I love German trains and was looking forward to this one...
Hi i have an question are you guys also planning to add banking comn to the 187? since it subs in on the bank services on Main spessart bahn
Hiya, We have received sounds for the 187. Now that we have these we are looking to resolve the sound issues as well as the PZB, LZB and any other issues raised. I cannot give a specific timeline at this stage though.
Just because it was never publicly acknowledged - are the team aware of the wrong headlight configuration?
Great news \o/ I keep my fingers crossed. The review of this DLC is still the only negative score in the history of my Steam account. Maybe this will change soon.
IRL banking works different in germany than it does as represented ingame. Banking comm replaces the radio stuff irl drivers would use to coordinate banking.
I know how it works in real life. But in TSW, the fictional banking comm is used to control both locos.
Banking comm IS the radio stuff RL drivers use to coordinate banking. Unfortunately, TSW doesn't put an NPC crew in the helper engine, who ought to be there. Same thing with US freight routes.
yes indeed. My 187 is just to increase services and A.i variety. Its time to get an actual use out of the loco.
Don't want to be like this. But its like what? Half a year now since release? And while I could understand it, if it was just some minor bugs like maybe a display dimmer not working or something. But the loco is barely driveable (if you want the full safety systems and AFB and so on!) without mods. And there still hasn't been an update. I appreciate Sean updating us on that "it's been worked on" but come on people. Its about time now. I could live without a sound update as I'm fortunate enough to be on PC and have a soundmod, but at least the other stuff should be working flawlessly. I mean I know that part of it is due to DTG's patch policies and so on, but I just feel like at least something should've happened by now. Maybe if there was trouble obtaining sounds for the sound update that is supposed to come with the loco patch postpone that one and at least release the bug fixes and update the sound at a later date? Sorry skyhook, but getting kinda impatient by now...
Not to defend Skyhook (I don't even have the 187), but it's only been a month and a half since the last update, and in the world of TSW patches that's not a very long time unfortunately. Especially since it seems the initial release was such a "dog". I suppose Horsheshoe Curve is a bigger priority for them now, too.
Hold on a second, did they update the 187 last month or another product of theirs? If so, I'll take back what I said, even though I still feel like it'd be about time.
Sorry for the confusion, but I meant that was the last progress update given by skyhook- sean in this thread. And not an actual patch.
I suspect right now they are working on the delayed Horse Shoe Curve and will direct their attention back to the 187 once this is released.
When remodeling an entire locomotive, they could add ETCS support. Then you could ride with her in Switzerland.
Hi guys, sorry i have been quite busy recentyl but allow me to give an update. As you suspected we have had our focus on Horseshoe curve however i would like to say there has been some work on the 187 fixes . I cannot give a date yet on this but i just wanted to let everyone know.
