New Steam Route: Peak Forest Ambergate - Buxton And Chinley

I can imagine the track laying to be quite straightforward but perhaps the signalling is more complex?

 

Not when autogen fails to make the route detailed. Autogen not being detailed enough is why track 3 was left out. Don't know how it is now but dtg still has to go in to manually edit the terrain and add detailed scenery elements extending a long distance.

 

I do like this route being mpre scenic than Crewe-Liverpool. Crewe-Liverpool has mostly an industrial charm, but that only works so well with just two locomotives. This when well executes could be really great. Secretly I'd also love a blue pullman DLC.

I do agree on the starting points being a bit weird though. I'm curious to see what this will become, but I'm holding off on judging for now as it is quite a while from release still.

 

Might as well say that from SoS while Crewe is densely detailed, as well as the other yards, but the problem was more on the performance than anything when it was released. On PC and Gen 9 consoles, that's not a problem. But gen 8 was hit the hardest for frame rates (and in worse cases, game crash), and from that is what I'm assuming why this route hasn't even gone to Derby, no matter how big the yard was back then or adding in a few more miles down the line with a few more stations in between.

But, there's no denying that Ambergate is indeed an odd place to start at, being a junction station and all, as well as Chinley for odd reasons. Guess only time will tell to see why Derby wasn't in that mind set to begin with.

 

I think at least with Chinley a lot more trains stopped there, I was hoping it would go to Manchester but thought that was unlikely and Chinley was the likely northern end point.

It could have been down to performance on the lower end consoles although I suspect that was a secondary reason, I think it was a case of we don't have the budget to lay all those sidings and create all those buildings. A third party with less time constraints might have made a different decision.

 

Maybe its because it is/was a junction station. What line does it share the junction with? Are/were there any more junction stations before Derby?

 

No but a logical start and end point... Ambergate is basically in the middle of nowhere, looking at the maps it doesn't look as if there was much in the way of sidings let alone a loco depot. Derby *is* the logical place to run to/from at the south end and the time and research needed to do it justice should have been factored at the white board stage. There used to be a phrase in MSTS circles, routes from "nowhere to nowhere". It was somewhat disparaging aimed at freeware builders who might not have the time and skill to do a complex location, but this is a payware product from a professional software house. They should not be cutting corners. In fact I would hope DTG are reading this and have a serious rethink, even if it means putting the projected release, presumably some time away, back a month or two.

Edit: Having a quick look on Timetable World, quite a few of the long distance trains didn't call at Chinley either - They were Manchester Central, Matlock and Derby with the odd train non stop Manchester to Derby and vv.

It would be nice to think DTG would take this route as the basis and then extend to both Derby and Manchester (which is still only a total distance of 61 miles) but we know from past experience, apart from SEHS this simply does not happen.

 

True, it would take time to make new assets for this route as well as track and scenery placements. At least it'll be a while until we hear more (unless discussed on the roadmap stream this week), which will be a good opportunity from now if they do extend as far as Derby. Otherwise, indeed, it'll be weird to have the start & stop points to be in the middle of nowhere without a major station with a yard attached.

 

A hopefully helpful summary of player feedback

General excitement for another steam route, scenery set to be spectacular, good choice of route considering currently announced locos. Concerns / questions to hopefully be positively answered as follows:

Route end point
Some concern over Ambergate as an illogical end point considering express services don't stop there. Far more logical to extend 10 miles south to Derby if possible.

Timetable
Is the full 1963 working timetable going to be accurately represented, with real-life timings, or as close as we can get with the locos included?

Buxton - Miller's Dale shuttle
Related to above point - how is this going to be represented in-game? Operated by a DMU in 1963 and had been so for six years at this point. I would suggest two similar possible solutions:

1) Class 101 included in BR green whiskered livery
2) Class 111 included, based on 101 but with slightly increased power output

This would ideally be included in the base pack but a BR Green gameplay pack might be required if it needs to be financially justified at DTG. If there is a gameplay pack to come, it should launch simultaneously with the route or ASAP afterwards rather than months or years down the line.

Banking operations
8Fs pulling heavy freight would have almost always been banked on this line by a 4F or similar. Banking isn't currently supported in the game - presumably this will be an added feature?

Another thing to consider is that without assistance, getting these locos over the Peak Forest summit is going to be incredibly challenging or indeed impossible with prototypical loads.

Class 45 Peak in BR Green
Would suit the route perfectly given the time period. Additionally, would allow those who don't enjoy steam to play the route. A lot of players may find steam operation on this very steeply graded route to be extremely challenging / frustrating so this would help those players more used to diesels from NTP / TVL!

OldVern would very much like some sort of buffet or restaurant car to be added to the express trains
Stale sandwiches and blindingly hot coffee, here we come.

I think this is a reasonable summary but if you've got any more questions / topics to raise then I'll try and edit them into this post so it's hopefully easier for someone at DTG to pick up and communicate internally. The community has been given this opportunity to provide feedback earlier than usual in the route dev cycle so I'm optimistic about perhaps a positive response from DTG?

 

Surely with such a bad choice of Start and End this will cause limited time table for passenger services. There won't be no train preparations for readying a train for the day. Not many variations on train services running. If this is the case, it will certainly make this route very bland?
Apart from great scenery and the ability to walk up a hill, Where will the gameplay be. Will it mainly be shunting coal and aggregate?
If this is the case it will be just a pretty version of the Tees Valley, with a bit of passenger service thrown in!
So I'm really interested what DTG's plans actually are to make this route so exciting?

 

At least in 1963 it wasn't MaxPax tea!

 

Matt it might be a good idea for you to create a new thread for this?

 

That's a nice and comprehensive list. I would indeed reccomend making a new thread for this, I've done that in the past for some German routes, and it was relatively succesful in getting some wishes and questions across to DTG.

 

Peak Forest Community Feedback List | Dovetail Games Forums

Done - thanks for the feedback both.

 

Ambergate Junction was where the line to Chinley met the MML between Derby and Sheffield. However it wasn't a major junction and most expresses didn't stop there certainly between Derby and Manchester and I imagine on the MML itself. It was mainly used by local trains. The next "major" station would have been Derby.

 

That is a very succinct list and covers everything from what I can see, certainly easier to read than my ramblings! Good idea to create it as a new thread.

 

I've also put up a poll/petition for the route to be extended. Sorry can't put the link at present as posting from the tablet.

 

Just seen it, excellent idea, link below

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...-uk-steam-route-end-points.64829/#post-602737

 

You've confirmed my supposition then, while the station itself may not have been frequented by everything, it makes sense from a "let's do a branch line of ye olde MML". Having MML on two game routes with one only having ~10 miles of track of ye olde MML, would have had the shouters up in arms

 

How Long (roughly) is this route? Like 30-40 miles?

 

It makes no sense from a realism/playability point of view. The immersion would be driving from a large city station through a city landscape and out into the wilds of the Peak district. Not picking up your train at an insignificant station almost in the middle of nowhere. Also the section of the MML would have given an opportunity to have a good run before the quite arduous climbs of the line through the peaks.

 

Just under 40 miles by my calculations with the Buxton branch included.

 

May 9th release date confirmed with this short trailer:

 

Dovetail Live article here https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/train-sim-world/articles/article/peak-forest-coming-soon

 

Reading the article has left me just as sceptical. Desperately again needs a tank engine or something for shunting and local services surely?

Although banking and double heading will be interesting hopefully

 

I'm looking forward to this route but I do find it frustrating because in reality early diesels operated a vast chunk of services on this line in 1963 and they are nowhere to be seen.

 

No tank engine, no diesels. I can wait for a nice discount, I think. I still have a fair number of services for Sos and I would prefer a German steam DLC anyway.

 

I too am sceptical. They have not listened to what we as a customer base asked for, whether it be the route running through to Derby, a layer for early diesels and the fact by this time the Buxton shuttle was actually operated by B&RCW Class 104 DMU's. It's going to be another fudge like SoS I fear. the pre-order discount is tempting but I might just leave it for a few days to think things over.

 

*sigh* I’m sure the route will be well made, but it feels like another wasted opportunity. Totally illogical start and end points and continuing the 2023 trend of offering poor value for money, with only one new loco and wagon and not even a layer onto SoS. The potential for green diesels and a class 104 DMU so common in the area at that time is simply ignored (ran out of time or just not scoped?). Please DTG, offer up routes with more rolling stock that provide real value and entertainment for players, whilst remaining historically credible.

 

I should also add, still no proof steam physics, sound and manual firing have been sorted.

 

Exactly my thought, if there are no fixes for sound, physics and the safety valve I may unfortunately have to pass

 

Not much track bed clutter visible in the trailer. There's some clutter visible on a screenshot in the article at the yard, but I'm worried the route will look "too clean".

 

So the Jubilee and 8F will be duplicates of those included in Spirit of Steam? I don't know about others but I really dislike having multiple versions of the same locomotives in game, especially if one version receives improvements which the other does not. At least give them a different tender logo or maybe even a OHLE warning stripe to differentiate them.

 

I’ll pass. Not much left on the roadmap

 

Last DLC kick out for TSW? I can't see a 104 coming for this. There now seems to be a large reluctance to have any BR diesel stuff be it green/blue or any other colour apart from a recent 37 DLC. I do wonder why considering people will pay hundreds of pounds to travel behind these locos these days and same again for models...this route is crying out for some diesels some of which exist already and instead it's steam only.....

 

And therefore my wallet remains firmly shut!

 

That would be because they haven't been sorted. They are still on the roadmap and my guess is this is just doubling the number of routes awaiting these improvements. Its now over a year we have been waiting on the manual firing.

 

It's quite the FU to anyone who bothered to actually support them, lord knows I saw a lot of people genuinely think SoS would be different this time. I'm glad I didn't fall for it, but I also can't say I'm particularly happy being right on that, those players don't deserve to be spit on like that

I see people say we need longer routes, and granted we do, but we also seriously need DTG to push for more loco development as well. The repeating of locos and rolling stock just seems to be getting worse by the year, it seriously gets on my nerves a little seeing all the recycling of stock all the time.

 

Until I can drive SoS myself without the known issues, then my wallet will remain shut for this and any other steam route they care to release.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me as the saying goes.

 

It is such a shame as this is an area of the country I love and visit every year (often walking along the old track bed) but I will not be buying it if there aren't any diesels as they were very common by '63.

 

Between the teaser video, article, and the screenshots from the store. Do have a feeling that Peak Forest will be falling into the same problems SoS is at right now, if not worse already compare to others from TSW3 onward.

Might just watch the preview steam next week to see if it's still worth it or not, but not gonna have high hopes from it after the current results of today.

 

The video looks bad with those video effects over the top. How are you supposed to see what you are getting? Surely if the content is good enough the game visuals will be enough. It also looks like a nuclear explosion has taken place again with the overblown white glare, maybe that’s why. There’s no indication in the article that any of the issues with the steam locos have been sorted either. I’ll add this to an ever growing list of UK content that I don’t have I think. Looking forward to the next German route!

 

Why do they insist on playing music over the video clip or is that to hide the sound?

Screenshots show the 4F on passenger stock so presumably that is going to represent the Buxton shuttle - which as we are all shouting from the rooftops, needs to be a Class 104 DMU or at worse a reskinned and reupholstered (original green and cream seats) 101.

At least one of the screenshots shows the 4F with safety valves merrily blowing off which doesn't bode well to me.

It looks as if quite some love has gone into the route itself but that's why, 1. It shold have gone to Derby and 2. It needs the proper mixed traction that was operating over this line by 1963. If ever something needed pulling out for a rework and rethink it's this.

Anyway, I was right about one thing. The release coincides with King Charles III coronation the Saturday immediately preceding.

So off for a proper steam fix with the Victory Terrier, in the depths of the IOW countryside.

 

The colours are terrible. They look overexposed and washed out!

 

My guess is they do it because it's a trailer/teaser, not a content preview.

 

How realistic! It is good to know they are making a great effort in accurately recreating railway history!

The route looks lovely from the screenshots but I will not be purchasing it.

If the Buxton to Millers Dale shuttle is represented by a 4F and mark 1's quite frankly it is a slap around the face for anyone who wants some kind of prototypical accuracy.

They bend over backwards to make modern routes realistic down to the correct coloured ballast but anything historical becomes a work of fiction!

 

Just copying my thoughts from the post thread.

This one is a very sad pass for me. Even notwithstanding the vast number of issues that look to be carried over from Spirit of Steam, it's clear to me that despite my initial optimism that the early preview would allow the community to feedback and affect the development, we've been essentially ignored and we're on track to get a highly unrealistic and unsatisfying representation of the Peak Forest route.

- No diesels, despite them being at least as prevalent as steam on this route during the time period and them already existing in-game, requiring some minor modification

- How will the expresses operate given that none of them stopped at Ambergate in reality? Absolutely bonkers not to extend to Derby. It's really clear that the initial research legwork simply wasn't done when this route came up for review, and then nobody was interested in reconsidering the scope once the community had fed back.

- HUGE red flag is that the timetable is clearly still under development at this late stage (again like Trenton) hence service numbers being unable to be provided in the usual manner

- Is the Buxton - Miller's Dale shuttle really going to be represented by a 4F? This is total nonsense and at this point had been operated by a DMU for several years

- Is the timetable included the 1963 working timetable? I made multiple offers to provide copies of the working timetable for this period (in an effort to be helpful) but apparently DTG didn't need them?

The route itself looks pretty enough but the value should be in the gameplay. Don't tell me that I should play the route before judging it - it's more than possible to judge the gameplay by what has already been made public and what will be missing.

I can't tell you how excited I was when this route was first announced (I even went on a special day out to Peak Rail to check it out in real life), but I think this will be the first UK route that I won't be buying. The scope of the route is fundamentally crippled and although I really have tried to maintain a level of goodwill, it feels like a slap in the face that there hasn't even been any feedback other than 'we can't do that' when the community pointed out the clear issues.

Why is it ok for steam routes to be incredibly unrealistic compared to modern routes? Are there no steam-era enthusiasts left willing to champion such a route at DTG? Why the reticence to include diesel traction? Why wasn't the dire state of Spirit of Steam addressed before cranking out another route, carrying over the same issues? Is it simply that nobody cares or is it the same story of product being cranked out the door for sales before it's ready or before the team can complete the job properly?

I would have paid £50 for a proper representation of the route with the appropriate stations and stock but as it stands my wallet is remaining firmly closed. What a disappointment.

 

The more I read the less I understand why they choose this route, between the stations they choose, in the era they choose, with the rolling stock they choose.

Nothing makes sense, absolutely nothing.

Whoever signed off on this, needs to come onto stream and give some proper answers, because what we've been told sofar is nonsense to me.

 

They really need to listen to the community and for Class 104 DMU where will DTG get the sounds for it so is the Class 111 DMU?

 

104s exist in preservation on a few lines.