Wcml South - Not Good Enough

Not getting caught a third time. Anyhow Steam yellow carded me for too many refunds (!) so next few purchases need to be keepers. Well Arkansas for ATS seems to be shaping up nicely. Just a shame Run 8 isn’t on Steam. Also looks likely there will be a big transport related sale coming up in the next few days and there’s always something to add to TSC (maybe the Florida route, as that region seems anathema to DTG in TSW). But bar the free update, TSW5 really can wait now until a nice 50% off the content and maybe some decent core fixes.

 

Sounds like a balanced and reasonable view to me!

 

Sorry, I don't know what I was thinking!

 

Just one final word on this subject i have been waiting for yonks for a TSW version of WCML-South & have to say on this occasion DTG have done a very good job on it i just can,t wait to play it Well-done DTG

 

DTG...Hype...I don't know what you mean? DTG never do hype do they

 

And I thought I was impulsive lol
DTG have now just 6 days to convince me the deluxe preorder is worth keeping. Who the hell do I think I am? No-one important, but nevertheless like many who frequent these forums, a DTG customer from the very start (Rail Simulator). I have shown them support with my wallet for years and this is the first time I am seriously considering refunding a new version of the game.

 

AH yes the R word, I was saying to Yorkshirelad that if 'R' are involved in it and we can only speculate but it does seem like one of their products I think the community should Hammer DTG for such a woeful decision.

 

Well the irony is as I’ve said, not so much the content as the core which is restraining me from handing over the £54 to DTG. Could probably have taken WCML as is, with decent lighting and more than one save slot. And yes will this will be the first time I’ve sat on the fence, just watching the reports and reviews come in from those with first hands on experience, to make an informed decision come Christmas or train fest next year.

 

Like that, I have been buying TSW for years, but after TSW4 and what went on with that I swore I wouldn't buy another TSW. You certainly don't buy the launch edition because it just simply isn't ready, maybe DTG might fix SOME bits by next year? If you aim to pick up a copy of TSW5 when TSW7 is out you might be ok? Maybe?

 

Anyone else find it a shame we ain't getting the Special liveries with the 390, The Pride one and the Climate Change one? Considering they been with Avanti for awhile should of been done. Also no name plates as well apparently.

 

I'm not sure DTG are the only entity around here who could be accused of hyperbole.

 

Compared to SB, WCML is nowhere near an acceptable standard in my view. Too many compromises, which just kills any enthusiasm for the route.

Although SB is a much stronger route, but not without its own flaws, I’m still not going to pre-order. The sound issues and the glaringly obvious issues with SB (flying cars a major one) won’t allow me to part with my money just yet. DTG has the feedback and the means to do what is necessary to deliver a polished product - the ball is in its court now.

 

Another unfortunate compromise.

 

And, so is Greece for us ETS2 fans, both DLC's are in my wish list.

 

Glad they are leaving political statements out of the game to be honest.

 

I agree to some extent. The only thing I disagree on is, if it is Rivet, even though DTG are selling this route as 'one of their own' for now, we need to acknowledge the Rivet element of it early on as they have a very poor reputation for not fixing faults at all, or at best releasing a single small update/patch and essentially abandoning add ons there after. It's concerning as any post patch improvements would then solely rely on Rivet to do them and that should be a huge concern to players as Rivet are notorious for never fixing big issues and abandoning routes.

My main concern is, if, it was Rivet that were responsible for building the route is there reputation for shoddy work and not even bothering with bug fixes or fixing problems at all. You're right DTG should be held responsible to some extent as they are aware of these issues and if it transpires that Rivet did create WCML, and were trusted to do so, that would leave a few questions. A) Why was a company with such poor feed back and evident poor quality products allowed to build one of the flagship routes? B) Why has DTG taken the route back and thought this was acceptable to sell to the public in the current state? C) Who is monitoring the quality control of in house and outsourced work and allowing this type of work to pass off as okay? Why isn't there a procedure to make sure all the work being released meets a standard criteria before being sold to the public?

So you are right it is down to DTG to take responsibility for the quality control of products, and if it is marketed as one of their own products, the buck needs to stop at them as the publisher.

At the moment this is nothing more then speculation, but as I've mentioned its a personal belief that Rivet have something to do with this as this has all of their hallmarks so far.

Next week will bring a few more answers, so we shall see...

 

Promise you everything and deliver you less, anything for a fast buck, but that only works some many times.

 

If you got xbox it's on gamepass on release anyway I will more than likely get it that way

 

That will come as extra dlc at some point. No doubt.

 

DTG have claimed or led us to believe it is their work, they have taken ownership of the route and its problems. I know you think next week more answers will come out, but DTG can't back pedal, blame or throw Rivet under the bus as it is not professional and it would refect badly on DTG. So, back to DTG where it stays.

 

Good point tbf. I like the Climate Change one.

 

I have the pre-order still as WCMLS is currently my local line, but my attitude towards the franchise is becoming more negative. I buy less DLC / wait for sales a lot more and worry that we are getting towards 'shovelware' status. There are possibilities with TSW5, the Route Hopping stuff could allow networks to be built up over time as JT look to be doing with WCML over Shap tying in with BPO but will it be utilised properly or will it become another forgotten development stub, like Steam? Are they ever going to fix the promised suspension? Wasn't that something that was promised for TSW4?

As for the stuff saying the build used on stream wasn't final, I've seen plenty pre-release streams for games where that's been said and there are very few that DO make any changes prior to release. I'd be surprised if what we got on release was very much different from what we saw even taking into account any Day 1 patch.

EDIT : I think it was the bungled release of WCMLS on TSC that killed my enthusiasm for that.

 

A livery acknowledging that LGBTQ+ folks and Climate Change exist aren't political statement. I will say that I think the older Virgin 'Flowing Silk' rainbow livery looked way better than Avanti's efforts but considering DTG hyped up that they can represent the whole fleet but they ignored nameplates and the 2 aforementioned units, I'd say it is misleading to say the whole fleet as it is in 2024 is represented.

 

Arguably I'd say the lack of inclusion of these liveries can be seen as more of a 'political statement' than including them, Including them is replicating real life as closely as possible which is what a Simulator should strive to do. Also weirdos on twitter are not the general public.

 

The stream is very long can anyone tell me at what part you see missing Overhead lines?

 

Can we please not turn this discussion political? This type of thing doesn't belong here on these forums. It'll just end up in a flame war starting and the thread being locked!

Anyway, for the time being I'll be sticking with the WCML South for TSC. Come to think of it, I hope the critcism against DTG are receiving will get them to fix the route like they did for TSC. If it worked once, surely it can work again, right? Right...?

 

That’s debatable, if DTG hit their projected revenue target for TSW5 with no fixes then I see no reason that they’d spend the money on staff time to fix it. It took them nearly a year to make the 801s gangways and pipes connect between each carriage properly so how long would it take them to do the more complex work required to fix the WCML?

 

Yeah I see that.

However, if DTG made a statement that was indirect but acknowledged these issues such as "We would like to apologise for the noticable issues raised. We can confirm a third party developer was outsourced and clearly did not meet ours or the players expectations etc... " , I think they would certainly gain any lost credibility back.

I can't really add more to the conversation in terms of my own speculations that I've already made though.

 

Guys come on...

 

I can't believe i'm saying this but i'm considering cancelling my pre-order for tsw5 deluxe.

As someone who only drives UK routes i was really looking forward to WCML south, and even when it was announced it was terminating at Milton Keynes i could happily accept that, so long as the timetable is busy and life like.

unfortunately we've seen that simply isn't the case in regards to the London Underground and London Overground layers. If we're going to have a 50 mile route out of a London terminus at this stage in the tsw lifecycle, it really need to have a timetable to match.

tsw2 has London to Brighton and that timetable to this day is outstanding. tsw5 should at least have those same ambitions to create a fully immersive timetable.

if anyone at DTG acknowledged these timetable concerns in their latest post highlighting frequently asked questions that would've been okay, but instead they answered a load of questions that either hadn't been asked, or had already been answered.

Without a proper immersive timetable for the UK's flagship route for tsw5, i've gone from genuinely hyped to just rather underwhelmed.

i'm thinking cancelling my deluxe pre-order is the right thing to do, and i'll just wait and hope that the WCML timetable is improved, or if not i'll reassess how i feel when Cardiff City Network comes along

and even that will live and die by the same, single critical point: the timetable mode.

for me the quality of the timetable is THE most important thing to a new route, and WCML in it's current offering just isn't good enough in my view, and nobody at DTG has currently come out to address that.

so i just cannot justify handing over almost £55 to DTG when i currently feel underwhelmed with the state of the UK offering, but i'm hoping things could change on the timetable front

i just cannot help but feel this is something that not only could have been avoided, but absolutely 100% should have been avoided at the very early planning stage of this route, as i've said before and especially a route of this nature: timetable is everything.

 

Something I am curious about is that 20tph out of Euston was mentioned earlier, does anyone know how many services go in and out of Victoria each hour in timetable mode?

 

Can we just leave irrelevant disputes out of the thread? I understand the provocation that caused it, but if you want to continue it, use the personal messages... Cheers.

 

Guys, this is the feedback thread for WCML, not Twitter. Have these conversations in private if you must; doing it here serves no other purpose than to derail the topic, potentially leading to the entire thread being locked by an admin.

 

Almost time to merge this with the enough is enough thread.

Has there been any new Intel on the WCML since the reveal?

 

To get it back on topic, I do find it funny that this time around the US route seems better than the UK route... I guess we're in the same boat that all of the US fans have been in for the last few years. Also the fact they get 2 timetables while the WCMLs is incomplete is also surprising to me. Please don't misunderstand me, I am super glad that the US fans are getting some attention, its just a shame each route didn't seem to get equal care and attention.

 

DTG JD Sorry for the ping but please could you kindly sort this out before it gets any worse? Last thing we want is to have the whole thread turning into this...

 

Aside from the Q&A that didn't answer any important questions that have been asked, nope.

 

People, please just hit the report button on the posts. There is no need to carry on this kind of conversation. Especially when the community team has likely gone home for the weekend.

 

So, what likely can be done to elevate the quality of the WCML, or is it going to become abandoneware?

 

Me and a few other modders have ideas for PC, but sadly that can't be transferred to console...

 

Well it needs a completely new timetable, the light baking in tunnels/stations fixed and night lights being added in.
At that point it would be acceptable, albeit not the best scenery wise.

 

As Fawx said a new timetable and lighting fixes, and I'd personally add the other 57 class 350 running numbers so we can have appropriate length trains. As someone who lived along the WCML south for around 9 years I can count on 1 hand how often I saw a 4 car 350 running. Oh and also the 710 should be modified to represent the 710/3 5 car units that also run on the Watford DC which would just be copy pasting a second MS into the formation. Oh and eventually the NLL as a separate route so we can have the 378 layer onto the Watford DC too.

 

Very much up to DTG. Their recent releases have been pretty good, so this one being at best average is a surprise.

Even if they did contract it out it’s marketed as a DTG product, so it’s down to them to improve it.

It’s annoying. Maintalbahn is another average route that didn’t match up to the quality of other releases around that time, at least in my opinion. That hasn’t been improved apart from a few bug fixes.

It does seem that occasionally we are going to get a sub standard route. Pretty unfortunate for DTG, that it’s the one UK route a lot are looking forward to.

 

It does feel like a bad joke for 'the most requested route' to be this mid.

 

Well, we know we can expect 'minimal changes' between the stream and release, so that clarifies the points raised about possible dev builds etc as being erroneous.
Given DTGs lack of speed on patching improvements in (no statement of value, just historical observation), its unlikely that'll happen any time soon.
Modders, you have the con! I'd just like ro say we're all counting on you!

 

Agree with Fawx that this is the bare minimum required to become an acceptable-quality route.

I would stress that the new timetable should include not just the basic service patterns at their real-life frequencies together with all ECS movements (although that's the place to start), but should also include realistic freight, authentic rail tours, seasonal RHTT movements and AI services on visible adjoining lines (North London Line at Willesden Junction, St Albans Abbey branch at Watford to name two where we already have the correct stock).

Additional things would include more scenery clutter - see the San Bernadino lineside litter or Goblin platform signage as to what that looks like. Correct (or as correct as licensing will allow) platform running boards.

Less repetitive foliage would be good, correct stop signs across the route including bespoke 710 stop signs are a must.

Ensuring dioramas, snow build-up, third rail and overhead sparks are present as appropriate.

Enhanced platform textures (see Blackpool Branches) would be good too, as well as fixing the inaccuracies in station buildings etc. carried over from Bakerloo line - see Wembley fast and slow lines, issues with Harrow & Wealdstone station buildings etc.

Eventually, I would also like to see suspension come to the 710 as it is a notably 'bouncy' unit in reality and will be the last unit regularly operating in-game that doesn't have the improved feature.

 

Thank whatever higher power you believe in for the work that modders put in with no financial incentive.

 

i have said this else where and i will say it again, this should've went up to Birmingham.

Alternatively go invest in TSC with WCML South, worth much more money if you want to go birmingham from London.
Still hate how they cant be bother to reimplement /2s on BML/ECW :/
It bugs me to no end.