I'm interested to know what other scenario creators have to say, especially if you mostly upload to Steam Workshop. After a number of DLC have been withdrawn, what do you use when creating scenarios when you need these particular trains? I'm aware you can buy DLC from places other than Steam Store, but this isn't always compatible Steam Workshop, where most of my scenarios are. For example I have the Armstrong Powerhouse Class 442 pack which I bought to be able to use this reskin: https://alanthomsonsim.com/downloads/class-442-south-west-trains/ in scenarios. Now that the Enhancement pack has been withdrawn, is it worth using in scenarios or is it better to use something that more people have access to like the SWT reskin found here? https://sites.google.com/view/turbo-ted/train-sim-content/reskins/south-west-trains Another issue is the Voyager conundrum. Back in 2018-2019 I made a number of scenarios featuring the DTG CrossCountry Voyager and the Virgin reskin for it as well. Some of these, I was able to upload to steam workshop, others I only finished in 2022, by which time the Voyager had been withdrawn. Do enough people have the original Voyager to warrant using it in scenarios or would more people be able to use the XC reskin found here? https://sites.google.com/view/turbo-ted/train-sim-content/reskins/crosscountry
There is no single definitive answer. You can use withdrawn DLC, because people can always use LocoSwap to change it for something that is available. However I'd recommend using the versions that are still available wherever possible so that people don't need to do it. Plenty of withdrawn DLCs have alternatives; only a few don't. Below is a link to the thread I started a few years ago with methods of buying withdrawn DLC, but do note that it's a bit out of date. Ways Of Buying Withdrawn Dlc | Dovetail Games Forums
I work on the other side of the pond, but I second what Doomotron said. I try to only use content that's currently available, if it's something that is absolutely needed for the scenario I'll make two versions, one with it, one without.
That makes sense, also in the case I mentioned with the Voyager, the one on North Wales Coastal is a better model than the DTG original (sounds aside). Also do you know where to get original North Wales Coastal, which has now been withdrawn?
What do you mean by that? Does freeware content developed for the original work with the latest version?
What do you mean? There his only one Voyager from DTG that comes with both North Wales Coast, old and new, and WCML South Same train with different routes That is the best part about the game - you can run what you want on what ever route you own. Have a read of this https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/llandudno-junction-to-holyhead-1960.88563/
There were multiple DTG Voyagers which were all effectively the same. They released the CrossCountry 220 first, which for some reason could tilt. With the North Wales Coastal route they modified the 220 to turn it into an actual 221, first in Virgin livery and then in Avanti. The Avanti 221 was then included in WCML-S, but they are not the same as they have different interior views. From my experience the JustTrains 220/221 is/was more popular despite being very dated in numerous ways. This has the CrossCountry and Virgin liveries, but does not have the Avanti livery and I don't think anyone has made one for it. My recommendation in the case of Voyagers is to use the WCML-S one if you're making an Avanti scenario and the JT one if you're making anything else.
I was aware of the JustTrains version, but I'm not sure if it is compatible with Steam Workshop. The DTG versions were similar but having tried both, the WCML/North Wales versions have better physics/more realistic acceleration and power handle and have tilting enabled with a switch to turn it on and off. Do you know if the North Wales Coastal version has a Virgin Reskin?
The Voyager is another train which could do with an enhancement pack. To me the sounds of the Avanti Voyager are awful. They seem far too loud and coarse. I agree the ageing JT one is better. I did purchase the AP pack before it was withdrawn.
The sounds aren't great but the only DMU in TS that have very good engine sounds are the Turbostars and the Class 222. The Avanti and NWC Voyagers were still an improved version compared to the DTG CrossCountry version, the physics and acceleration are more realistic, the throttle has power steps and the 221 has tilt which can be switched on or off in the cab.
I strongly recommend using the bare minimum of additional payware, only using payware currently available, and avoiding using payware from companies like AP who frequently withdraw their content for AI traffic. Or the far better Train Sim Community...
AP provide so much stuff that you need to make most UK scenarios that avoiding them would really make the scenarios suffer. It's 2025, and the amount of people willing to tolerate DTG stock is a lot lower than it used to be. There aren't that many scenarios on the TS Community site compared to ATS. I do agree though that TSC is much better than ATS; I wish it had been launched earlier as ATS took over as the main TS site pretty quickly.
And that's why I avoided buying many. I bought 2 AP enhancement packs around 2 years ago and one has already been withdrawn, before I used it in any scenarios. Sometimes the Enhancement pack needs the original train from DTG/RSC, so you would need to fork out more cash anyway.
This isn't necessarily accurate. I have 2 AP products and will probably be getting 1 or 2 more but they aren't always essential. I've created multiple UK scenarios set in the privatisation years which are on Steam Workshop and (a few) on ATS with some going as far back as 1999 using just DLC from Steam, with the timetables I could find and reskins for the liveries I didn't have. So from that perspective I have been able to make realistic UK scenarios without a huge amount of extra payware. I've only used 1 AP enhancement pack in scenarios (the other got withdrawn before I used it) and I only bought it 2 years ago, I've been making scenarios since 2018. I can't say my scenarios 'suffered' due to a lack of content (if they did it was because my PC kept crashing if you add too many AI trains and I didn't have a very powerful PC when I started making scenarios.) Obviously sometimes it is necessary to buy them if you want a particular train or particular operator, and it has definitely been useful to me to have that option but equally you can usually find enough freeware/Steam DLC and use other JT/AP products to fill in the gaps.
It is possible to fill in gaps with multiple alternatives just by using Locoswap. When acquiring UK scenarios having a complete portfolio of AP rolling stock is always very useful. I do not regret rounding out my AP portfolio and taking every chance to fill out Standard UK scenarios with AP product. Most JT packs come with an AP biased variant of each scenario and material sourced from ATS will also lean towards AP stock.
Of course if you have bought more then you will be able to play more scenarios but, you will have to spend a lot of money and I don't have the means to constantly be buying new DLC, unless it's in a sale. Also due to the high number of AP products being withdrawn l, I avoided buying any more after one of the enhancement packs I had was withdrawn now I am having to be more cautious about which I ones I buy next.
But you have already bought it so why is that a problem? It still works and you could download it again if you wanted.
That isn't the issue, I downloaded it and installed it around 2 years ago, however I can't use it in scenarios as it is not available for others to download and I don't know if AP are planning on releasing another version (which presumably I would have to buy again) it was the Class 442 Soundpack and the South West Trains reskin from ATS that went with it if you're wondering.
If people can't tolerate non-AP stock used as AI then I suggest their standards are ludicrously high. ATS also is not the main TS site anywhere outside of the UK!
So you did not buy an AP pack because you wanted it but so you could make scenarios for other people. Bit of a waste of money really if you don't intend to use it Do what others do and make two versions of a scenario - one with the sound pack and one without.
As 749006 says, you're not forcing people to use the AP 442 SP. You can make two versions if you want, or you can just let people use LocoSwap to swap it for the regular DTG version. That said, in this situation I would stick to the DTG version for the sole reason that the AP SP wasn't a massive improvement beyond sounds. If we were instead talking about the Kuju HST vs the AP MTU pack, there would be no debate.
I bought it because I wanted an SWT Class 442 and the only reskin was from ATS and needed the AP soundpack until I found one here: https://sites.google.com/view/turbo-ted/train-sim-content/reskins/south-west-trains.
Yes that's a good point, I don't have HST pack but I have the IC225/ Class 91 enhancement pack and was thinking of getting the AP HST pack.
Exactly, I've made around 70 UK scenarios since 2018, all set in years between 1999 and 2022 using timetables over those years and 27 of them are very accurate in terms of the timetabling, rolling stock and liveries and most of the others are very close. Most of the DLC was from Steam Store/Marketplace and only using one AP product in 2 scenarios.
The MTU pack is expensive but very very good. Don't get the Valenta and VP185 packs as these are due to be replaced in the coming months.
