With 3rd parties taking more room in the DLC landscape it somehow becomes obvious that there must be some kind of bottleneck that prevents patches from being released. Whatever the process is, and I can only speak for the German content, looking at stuff TSG has fed back into DTG, months ago, to release as a patch for the E101, I would think it is obvious that the system is not working. Also, Mittenwaldbahn is now waiting for more time then I would happily accept, not only as a customer, but also as a developer. So, what exactly is the problem? I can only assume that QA is not staffed enough to cope with the new demand comming from the new 3rd parties, however, there must be some kind of priorisation, otherwise I would not be able to explain that, for the example given above, it is taking more then half a year (no idea that is actually true but it feels even longer then this) to look at fixes or even new features in case of the E101 and release them. This is not supposed to be a rant, I would genuinely be interested to know! I believe the people who would know within DTG are no longer following the forums, however, maybe there is someone who has some knowledge and can shed some light on this mystery... Maybe this was explained somewhere, sorry if I have missed it. It would make it easier to accept the fact that we need to wait... Maybe, just maybe, there are even mitigation actions launched which would make it even easer to wait... I can still hope, I guess...
Because they want to see how many people notice what. It’s a shame. Like the 378. It should not have been released in its current state.
They cashed already in for all the dlcs waiting for the patch, so no priority. My personal guess is, that dlcs in the "polish" state have priority. And yes this system is somewhat rotten, not giving DTG a cent anymore. TSG has my full support as long i find time to play TSW. This clearly can be seen in the way how unpolished dlcs release currently. I Left Ludwigsbahn out with no interest into the route right now.
I genuinely believe they are putting their heads in the sand. I don't want to single out the EP who has decided he doesn't want to look at the forum anymore to see what a state his baby is in but... We had the "send me a video clip" of the sound squelching with the 87 on WCMLOS when it was quite apparent from their own preview stream. We had undertakings to try and sort out the save game, more slots and the other bug I keep mentioning where objective data gets lost. Nothing heard and the question ignored in Q&A. We had the very blasé response to the one unders due to erratic passenger behaviour. For whatever reason, whether financial pressure, fixation with Thomas, loss of key staff who understand the code base; it just seems the entire priority now is on pushing DLC out of the door to bring money in, regardless of whether it's ready and regardless of the state the main game is in.
Most likely just one person working 24/7 on the bugs......... whilst the rest of the team celebrate releasing more DLC on time, albeit unfinished, bodged and full of bugs Obviously that's a joke. Or is it?
Sometime soon will come back to bite them. I am starting to get a really annoyed now where I will end up not buying it there products because the amount of bugs that are left untouched, and if people are to follow in those footsteps maybe it will kick DTG up the LOVE!
Of course it's difficult to know about those off the forum, but this does seem to be the way myself and some other forum members are going. And to think prior I was trying to own all the UK content!
Yep, Now I dont ever remember putting the LOVE word on, i am sure I used the 4 letter word for backside.
Don't forget that all patches have to be tested still. Not saying tested well but tested. So that means you need to have 7 servers available for every patch as there are 7 iterations they make and have to all be tested. Say you make a fix to a specific route then that timetable also has to be tested with there automated timetable test they do were it is supposed to run every train at everytime to make sure there are no glitches. That alone takes 2-4 days to completely run. If no errors or else you have to find the error and run it again. And if you touch the core every DLC and timetable have to be tested. So its a very time consuming process.
Oh and don't forget the bugs don't show up on their system or development consoles. Just wondering how do I get a hold of one of these wonderful consoles nothing goes wrong on?
Its a simple process. To obtain an Xbox Development Kit (dev kit) and the necessary software development tools, you need to be part of the Xbox developer ecosystem by joining a Microsoft developer program and signing a non-disclosure agreement. Then you have to secure a developer account and Microsoft partner centre account. Then you can purchase a dev kit for around $8300 USD. And voila.
This must be an interesting dev kit on console. No one at DTG noticed the blurry textures and frequent crashes when TSW5 was released.
Matt has said that the DevKits have more memory than the Retail versions, and thats part of the problem, and they should be starting to use retail versions as well as part of testing soon.
Yes, I have been watching a few live streams and I have noticed that some questions are missed out, some questions are responded to, while other questions are responded to very carefully. If anybody asks a Thomas question the responce is right away, but if anyone asks about the class XXX not working correctly for the past 4 years the responce is..................? I think DTG business model is heavily focused on either creating DLC or launching the new version of TSW and while it is nice to get new DLC and a new version of TSW. Problem bugs in the game are clearly not being addressed or they seem to be classed as a very low priority. I have said it before that DTG need to stop creating DLC and fix the bugs. Creating more content while not fixing the bug is going to get to a "point of no return" where DTG won't be able to fix all the bugs in TSW.
And the arguments of the fan club that “DLC pays for the core” will be devalued if no one ends up buying content for a broken game. I’m already watching the USD to GBP exchange rate which seems to be heading in the UK favour, with the price for a Run 8 route extension hopefully soon under my £30 red line. Far better value to add Modesto to SoCal or Savannah to South East than £30 for a 20 mile route around Cardiff and (probably) two botched trains.
I hate those replies to issues with “devs need to eat” asif DTG aren’t banking £2m in profit a year. They need to slow their roll & hold a DLC back for a week or 2 & get them into a better state.
I know it has 40GB of RAM, and it has an AMD APU named "Scarlett". But that is all I know for the specs.
I assume there are very few people working on fixing issues post release, hence the reason for the slow or pretty much nonexistent patches. It just doesn't seem to be a priority at DTG. It's a shame, because many of the issues are basically just few click things or incorrect values, which could be fixed easily. But usually they are left in the game for years. Even when there there are fixes, like half of them only ever materialize because someone worked on them in their free time.
Yes, I understand players will defend DTG's DLC sales, but I think that number is going down because people are starting to realise that the promises from DTG that they will fix it is not being honoured. You already bought and paid for a product, the exchange of money for a service has already taken place. Having to sell more DLCs to pay for repairs that are not being done... DTG are kicking the can down the road for as long as they can to bank as much money as they can and layout as little as they can (general business model), but it has now got to a point where even devoted fans are starting to ask questions and when those questions are ignored, so will TSW DLCs and then DTG will make a better effort to patch TSW because there is a loss of money income.
According to the Quarter 3 report from Pullup sales numbers have increased from last year during the same period for TSW and they are seeing a steady growth. So where are the lower sales you speak about. Seems like they are selling more than ever.
I think the vast, vast majority of players don't care about the issues we can't stand. They just want to ride a train, not worry about signals. This forum is probably just a somewhat vocal (but largely ignored) minority. That means DTG can churn out broken DLC after broken DLC without taking that much of a hit in income.
To be fair I think DTG aren’t that bothered about a core playerbase, the focus seems to be more on cycling new players in & out. For a long term investment, TSW really doesn’t offer that much. DTGs routes are mere snapshots of an alternate reality, with no real intention to expand beyond what’s released, the DTG route library in general isn’t very cohesive. The Editor is still in some weird limbo where the community can’t really do much for getting content out (the success stories while great, are very minimal). Long term modders seem to be burning out on the back of DTG taking more & more immersion from the simulation OUT of the game, while shoehorning gimmicks in. The core is in a frankly deplorable state.
You also have remember for every dedicated player they lose they gain another 3 new casual players. So it will be years before they start to lose money, and no they don't care about us its a company not a therapist. As long as the revenues go up they are happy. And many business turn away the regulars to get new clients and it usually works out in there favour. Just watch Kitchen Nightmares or Bar Rescue the owners alot of time are resistant to updateing the menus as they will lose the loyal customers. Well just the loyal customers sometimes don't pay the bills so you ditch them get new customers and are profitable again. So it does work. They don't care how long you play or waht your Driver level is.. they don't make money on that. All they care about is sales and the perfect client seems to be the casual gamer who plays a route 5 or 6 times gets bored with the route and then waits to buy the next DLC and repeats that cycle. There is way more of those than hardcore simmers in the world so it will be awhile for that to happen. Just curious what percentage of hardcore simmers are actually playing compared to the casual players. I'm inclined to think 30% or less for the hardcores.
I do have one thing to consider, is the I'm more curious to know how much Third Party Developers make Vs DTG if some of their routes are arguably at a better quality.
Either way every 3rd party has to go through DTG for publishing, at least on consoles, so they get a peice of rhe 3rd parties profits as well.
Hello - just to add in a few thoughts from myself, I think there's value in more understanding around how new patches and testing get pushed to players, and I'd happily talk more about this the next chance we get (Perhaps the April Roadmap) As a starting point, it's important to acknowledge that even if an improvement has been made, either from our own team, or from third parties, it isn't just immediately pushed out to players. This is simply down to the importance of a testing stage, where our QA teams need to review the impact of new changes on our development builds, to (simply put) ensure a few things: The new changes are working as they should The new changes haven't disrupted something they shouldn't The build is still cleared for certification across our various release platforms. Without this testing process, we run exceptionally large risks with what we're delivering to players, and this is not something we want to rush. Put plainly, this stage translates to work hours needed from our teams, and hence this is why we can't just add all the new changes being made into the latest builds and send them off for testing in one go. Alongside the patch from any new improvements, it's also critical that we make space for other changes we need to test in builds (typically this refers to pre-launch updates for new add-ons, or core changes to support upcoming updates). So there are definitely limitations on how big we can make each patch, and as our third-party partner system continues to grow, we need to make sure we manage this in a way which helps support new releases, top existing issues, and takes everything into consideration that's best for all our players. (Again please note there are likely some massive over-simplifications being made here, and steps missed, but this is the process I personally see when working with our teams for new patches, and when helping draft the public patch notes). Our best way of managing this is assigning updates to patch "windows", and so far we've been releasing a major update about two times a month (with four core updates to TSW5 so far in 2025), which has proven to be a good timeframe for our teams across the board, but by no means dictates how the future will go. We may enter periods of more frequent, smaller patches for a month, or a month of less frequent updates so that we can better align them to key windows that are important to target. Back to your original mention, you'll be pleased to know that the Mittenwaldbahn changes you mentioned should be folded into our next patch, ideally arriving on all platforms within the next few days. I believe we were originally estimating a long time for these changes, but it's been something we've found the time to test and get ready sooner I hope this helps share some light on the process and decision-making, there's certainly more that can be added here, but this is the best I've got from my experience.
What will happen if DTG doesn't listen to their fans. Sure the sales numbers may go up, but it won't be from original fans of TSW
Thanks, Alex, your view is much appreciated and does actually give some more insight into the issues with patches. However, it also raises some more questions and I would therfore really welcome a discussion in one of the next streams, probably with Matt, as I would be assuming that he has the insight into this process. Especially your last paragraph seems to contradict the widely expected view that the next patch for the Mittenwaldbahn was actually much closer to the actual release. After all, some quite important stuff is expected with this patch (not running over cows, better visuals for the tracks in winter, etc...) From your response it sounds like that internal it was actually expected even later. It begs the question into how you are managing expectation with your customers but also with the developers of these DLCs. Maybe it is not something you really need. After all, these forums are probably not giving a real perspective of the vast majority of your customers. However, all of us here are living in this very bubble. Hence, maybe you could elaborate on these kind of aspects as well. Also, picking up my second example of the Expert 101. I do acknowledge that there must be some kind of financial componant to your priorisation of patches and that with an already established product, that will not bring much more revenue, it must obviously have a lower priority. However, I would claim that the timespan of fixes that have reportadly gone into DTG and are not yet released, about half a year later, this is not something you can be really happy with?! Is this something DTG is looking into changing over time? These kind of DLCs are probably not fitting the original business model of TSW, however, here you have a 3rd party that wants to actively develop their DLCs after release, only your system does not seem to cater for this. There are more Expert locos around the corner. I would really like to hear what your (DTGs) plan is on improving this... Maybe having the 3rd party more involved in the QA process of the game and share more responsibility could be an answer... Maybe there is no plan, an acknowledgement would already be much welcome, though Just speculating, of course, however, really hoping that there is a way to make this process leaner and quicker in the future. Again, appreciate your willingness to explain this to us, hope you can shed some more light in a stream in the future...
FWIW, in the March roadmap last week, Harry said: It's also a third-party route from TSG, so not entirely in DTG's control.
So they get new fans by selling to more and more people. Surely 1 of the 3 new people that would replace you in the chain would become a fan just like you. There is always more fish in the sea. With all the modern and one handled DMU's shows they are heading toward's a younger audience. So just as the kids who were 15 when TSW first came out who are now 20 might be looking for more sofisticated games may find it and turn to it. Most them don't have nostalgia for Steam, BR Blue or non modern content or the long boring US frieght we have. Thats why DTG have not released one of those routes since March 2023. Only 3rd parties have. You always have to generate new customers above your regulars as new customers are more of your bread and butter than the regulars. Like I said the perfect customer is not one who buys a DLC to finish it all, its the people who play some runs and scenarios get bored and want a new route or train to run. They buy the most the quickest. But until a quarterly report shows they are losing growth you aren't going to see any major changes to the way DTG works. How do think Roblox is still going strong when they lose customers all the time who outgrow the game. From all the new ones that become dedicated. I'm sure there was a time you first played a train simulator and you have been hooked ever since. Why can't others their are young people growing up everyday and new ones coming out everyday too any of which could replace you or I for them in sales. Again DTG don't care about us personally all they care about is makkng money. They are business that is what they do. Family, friends and therapists care, not a video game producer. Especially not the McDonalds of turning out Train Sim DLC.
Thanks for linking this, so there was communication about it, which is good to know. Also, just to correct myself, the half year for the last E101 patch is actually “only” 4 months. However, I believe all my points still remain valid, is the an acceptable window for some still quite major fixes in the pipeline?!
At this point, DTG are more like the dodgy used car showroom. Selling a write off that’s been stitched back together, the odometer wound back 50k miles and the gearbox packed with sawdust to ensure it just lasts beyond the minimal possible warranty/noreturn period!
Thank you Alex for this reply and for the insight into all the stages that a patch has to go through before it is released to players, so what happened in the case of WCML or Mildmay then? Do these go through a different process? There are bugs that are in TSW for years, light bleed on the 101's roof, wet tracks in Bakerloo tunnels, rear beacon goes the FRONT of your 66....would love a bit of insight into these? Please and thank you.
To answer the original question (without knowing DTG's specific processes), here are some common factors that software houses deal with: Integration. Patches are more than just slinging together a bunch of individual commits. Testing. I know what people will say but I'm sure there is still quite a lot of testing that goes on, however efficacious we believe that testing to be. Lead times. Stuff like localisation, building packages, uploading, certification processes, etc. Customer reaction. You don't want to irritate customers by updating things too often. Ok, there is a counter argument (people want updates as soon as possible) but you'd be surprised at how much uproar 'overly regular' updating can cause.
oh come on, where does it almost disdain for modern units come from? I understand the nostalgia and desire to have tons of buttons and involvement etc., but why constantly looking down on it like only kids like it? ... there are legit reasons why MUs are taking over in certain service types... and some ppl genuinely enjoy driving those things in sims as well, me included (I also like more complicated stuff, but sometimes it is nice to do some regional train runs as well)... other comments by you were quite reasonable, but in this one I feel kind of resentment towards that kind of content y know, I like the MUs, but I also often play US diesels, sometimes also Expert 101 or Vectron... would also play more 103 if it had more routes to run on, ideally also with LZB ... each of us here likes sth different, so lets keep at least a bit of respect for that, shall we ?
an insight like this is always appreciated... and while it bugs me (pun intended, I guess? ) that some bugs dont get resolved (like that AFB brake bug under LZB which I have reported 2-3x also on support tickets), I appreciate the effort... I know stuff isnt nearly as simple as some here imply... and I am certainly not into conspiracy thinking like DTG is boooo they just want moneyz and dont care and I can give credit where credit is due - like there was this long running issue on 442s running from Aachen to Koln (Siegen) on Koln Aachen DLC, where one of the units would spawn without a pantograph and thus those services were unplayable (only with workarounds)... but then bam, after like 2-3 years it got resolved ... so I have faith that one day those bugs that bug me will get resolved... or not... well, we cant have everything ... but still I am grateful for content and that it is taken care of at least to the degree thats possible
Obviously you have not read my posts for the last 3 months. That was a sarcastic comment. I love DMU and EMUs and am a casual gamer. I just like to make fun if the people who say its for serious gamers only or overblow things like Thomas. But if you read my other posts than you will know I don't care for Steam, Historic, US frieght. I like DMU and EMU's.
yeah that happens when you dont have time to properly check all posts cos you are at work lol ... I actually kinda like some US freight, if the locos are already set up and I only have to deal with the lead loco setup
It's April now, still no signs that patches for Expert 101 are coming although a lot of fixes have been submitted to DTG. Whatever the reason, it can't be justified that the QA process takes this long while they are busy releasing new DLCs. Guide - Br 101 Expert: Troubleshooting Steps And Bug Fixing Status | Dovetail Games Forums
Well we are still outstanding many of the fixes and QOL improvements that have been promised. Sadly I feel what programming resources DTG either employ or buy in, are all directed to whatever the late summer parade will be - probably TSW6. TSW5 pretty much abandoned at this time.
What really saddens me is that this has become a yearly occurrence by now. Each spring, support for the current TSW version slows to a halt because DTG rather puts the effort into a more or less shiny new iteration. Which in turn will get about five months of support and maintenance (at least a little bit) before the cycle starts again. Happened with TSW 4, 5 and now apparently 6 as well. I'm still a huge fan of TSW and hopefully will go on to be for a while... but DTG's very obvious lack of care for their product in favour of quick cash through DLC's is infuriating. With so many 3rd party developers for routes and vehicles in the loop by now, if I were DTG I'd focus on fixing, updating, perfecting the core game. In other words, trying to get ahead (or stay ahead) of the growing train sim competition.
No doubt tsw6 will bring new problems to the table. 3rd party developers seem to take the feedback on board and fix issues, well most of them anyway. Whilst the team at dtg just bury their heads in the sand. Perhaps they should change to ostrich tail games! I will be investing my money wisely in this franchise from now on.
This is the most annoying thing. When TSW does things well, it really gets it right. I mean, I still can’t quite bring myself to reinstall TSC on my PC or jump across to SimRail or Run 8 as an alternative, both sitting dormant on my PC. Just needs the management - and I don’t necessarily mean the EP who, reading between the lines of what he posted the other day, might not have as much input “clout” as we thought - to get back to the early days of innovation and vision for a decent sustainable game. There has definitely been a sea change since Focus took over, regardless of what might have been said with the overboss dictating policies and direction which may not be entirely aligned with what the team themselves want.
Exactly. Although I usually prefer 70's to 90's trains over the more modern stuff, TSW is still the most appealing sim to me, despite it being much more modern-oriented. Like you said, it gets many things right. And it strikes a good balance between realism and playability, mostly. But it's a shame that DTG treats it more like a necessary evil, a cash cow to be milked regularly, rather than really care for the quality of their product. When I create something, I want to be proud of the outcome, and want it to be as perfect as possible. That's where my earlier suggestion comes from. DTG should focus more (solely?) on fixing the game, maintenance, improvements... keeping it relevant. I don't mind getting a new iteration of the game every couple of years, if the new iteration brings technological leaps along with it. Leave the development of routes and vehicles to 3rd party developers. Sure, they'll get a piece of the cake then, but what's having the whole cake for yourself good for, if it gets smaller and smaller over time?
The problem is, core issues seem to overlap into the next titles and it becomes like a snow ball effect. By the time the next release comes around, they are still prevailing and then more issues are added. Rather then DTG implement new features in new titles to entice people in, I'd much rather thorough and comprehensive work to get on top of, and iron out current and ongoing core issues is done, that are undermining and effecting game play... Tin foil hat time, but I wonder if part of problem with the ongoing core issues are because theu are being left to outsourced partners to resolve hence why the ones we have received so small and at a slower pace then we've come to expect in previous years? In the long run, regardless of who's doing what, it's DTG who are damaging there own image in the long run.
