Upcoming Release Frankfurt S-bahn: Coming Soon!

oh, now trying gaslighting, are we ... what you have seen above is a nice example of being annoyed to a high degree ... like when a kid starts crying in our store and it doesnt stop and the parent is at the other end of the mall, giving exactly zero ...s while our heads are about to explode, but obviously we cant silence the kid unless we choose violence lol

 

thanks a lot for the reply... which is a much welcome shot of reason in this thread among all the screams... personally, I am hyped for the new route and on the other hand, wish you all luck and fortitude in facing the problems you know of and just discovered... cheers

 

All good, we are optimistic about the future!

 

That saying is actually incomplete, the full thing is "the customer is always right... in matter of taste". Somewhere along the line people have shortened it to what we commonly know. I work in customer service, and I am the first person to call out customers on their BS! Somehow, I haven't gotten fired yet lol.

 

NO!

 

Huh, never knew that. Where did it originally come from?

 

To me this is a problem with the wrong order of things. I think the sane way would be to fix, create, communicate. What I often see is create, communicate, fix.

I very much appreciate Matt's commitment to fixing the underlying issues, and bringing the full timetable to consoles in the first place. But the order is all wrong. It's like with Mittenwaldbahn - a route is developed, communication follows (sorry about the mountains, but not doable) and then the devs finally fix stuff and it is great. But it comes AFTER customers were already in arms over the issues.

We would all be happier if DTG would not back themselves into a corner like this.

 

I found it on a Reddit rabbit hole one weekend while I was bored. It hasn't been narrowed down to any one person, but Marshall Field is the common source.

Of course it being Reddit, it could be total BS, but if spreading that information (even if inaccurate) results in people being a little kinder to staff behind [insert profession here] counter, then I'm more than happy to buy into that particular misinformation.

 

Thank you very much Matt for the feedback provided today.

This is very much appreciated.

I like a lot this game and I am looking forward to see high quality content in the years to come for my PS5, which I am not planing to replace until there is a PS6.

 

I hope this is sarcasm. Clearly all is not good. And who are " we "?

 

Why consoles are weather than PCs
https://www.gameslearningsociety.org/wiki/why-are-consoles-weaker-than-pcs/

It's fairly balanced and tackles the bigger issues. Consoles are fine for what they are, and for many people are better because they're simple, cheaper and designed for narrow windows of performance. (One XBox S should run like every other XBox S, and close to an XBox X, etc) I think that explains many of TSW's issues too.

Lower RAM explains why many consoles struggle with high-asset situations (lots of trees or buildings on a route for example) , or tracking assets on the map that aren't even on screen graphically) That tracking of lots of assets is more a RAM limitation than CPU/GPU (which consoles are better at) The more AI...the more RAM... so it makes sense that lots of AI trains means higher RAM usage...which consoles are poor at.

Also, TSW on PC is designing for a BROAD audience and can't account for EVERY situation because they can't test everyone's individual (and very different variety) of systems out there. There are dozens and dozens of different options on a PC setup you can install and set...whereas on a console it's pretty cut and dried. You buy what you buy and they're all more or less the same out of the box.

This could probably make a whole separate thread for discussion rather than hijack the Frankfurt S Bahn thread.
However, the issues it brings up (why 1,000 AI services doesn't work well on consoles due to RAM limits for example) is relevant as it's a harbinger of things to come if people keep demanding more content that require higher end PC hardware.

Yes you can "optimize" but that's not a magic wand. You do tend to hit walls where it's less effective and it's not universally productive.
16 RAM is still 16 RAM. If you start making games that use more than that, it's not going to work.
So you'd be limited to doing what you can under that cap.
TSW has created additional workload with new features that use more power, so that can't be "optimized" away. It wouldn't be acceptable to players "swap in simple AI trains" for example, or eliminate the ability to walk around, or "simplify or bundle assets." Every switch you add to a train for example is now there and has to be tracked, even when you're not using it. No none is advocating to remove those elements, so it means trains will keep getting more complex with more for the computer (PC or console) to "track" in game.
If there are 10% more THINGS in game at a time to keep track of and your framerate on the same hardware drops by 10%...that just makes sense. The demand for more from TSW has created a burden that means they have less flexibility in what to streamline or eliminate to improve performance.

 

I'm not sure anyone needs a lecture in why consoles can't match high end PCs, but as has been made clear to those actually reading this thread there are memory related issues within TSW5 that DTG are working on resolving, that is to the benefit of consoles players (it won't blur/crash) as well as PC players (it will run quicker).

Once those memory issues are fixed if they still can't deliver an improved timetable then I shall be first in line to bow down and worship at the feet of your amazing PC.

 

Many thanks Matt for answering my question. I will buy it for my gen8 Xbox and intall it to my PC. Thank you for taking the time to respond l appreciate that.

 

Exactly that's why DTG should be more focused at the core of the game, the train simulation. The additional new graphic and gameplay things are nice to see, but like Matt said they need additional performance, that is limited on consoles.

 

This is the part i don't get at all- the memory leak affects ALL platforms, and not every PC player runs a supercomputer that can just brute-force through it- the minimum specs for PC are 8GB system RAM and 2GB of VRAM!

I only have 16GB of RAM on my laptop and i get the texture bugs after playing for an extended time, but if i fire up the same route (Mildmay is the worst offender for me) on Series X, it's immediately blurry.

Why are so many people defending a game that the devs themselves admit runs worse than it's predecessor? Maybe they can't fully optimize their way out of this mess and i'm willing to admit that, but the performance drop off from TSW4 to TSW5 is very noticeable and not just on FFA, or the other complex routes- i just think people are grasping onto the idea that console memory limitations are the entirety of the problem and i'd argue the rest of the evidence doesn't support that.

In the end, if they really can't get the full timetable to work on consoles, i guess it is what it is, but they shouldn't be charging the same price for so much less content IMO.

 

Hello Matt,

thank you very much for your detailed answer.

I know you will find a solution with the memory problem at this route and in general.

 

For those thinking this will be resolved for console, as Matt says, he makes no promises. DTG Matt is a class act, with his communication, effort, desire, positivity in the face of adversity. However, we’ve heard this before with Munich -Augsburg and we’re still waiting on that one. We can live in hope but that’s all it is at the moment. It’s not even light at the end of a tunnel. Why should console players be charged full price for a lesser package, if it’s a “Frankfurt S-bahn light” dlc, then charge us appropriately and not for mugs.

 

What do you expect with a console that costs a paltry 500.00 euros?
Even a low-end Handeld costs more.

 

We don't know. You have right with HMA. But there was SPG too. DTG made is possible on Gen8 with TSW2. And this year WCML over Shap got additional trains on Gen8 after at release you had only 187 with Intercity trains.

 

And once it is optimised, maybe a new timetable?

 

Get some rest Matt, you’ve been on this 12 hours at least now. You’ve got some hard work ahead. Appreciate the communication.

 

I really appreciate this !

 

A new timetable for Munich would be great. It would be so nice to see Germanies biggest crowded with a lot of trains.

 

You’d never have had these issues if you had just worked on ECML - Newcastle to Edinburgh

 

Double dare you!

Seriously though, thanks for the post earlier about some of the stuff going on behind the scenes to try to resolve the issues on console. As someone who only now plays on console and loves Tsw when it works it's good to hear the details about some of the stuff going on trying to make it better and might stop my occasional sarcastic post.

(Whilst you're here though, could you give rivet a call and ask them to put the running sounds back on the class 170 in Fife circle which they accidentally removed in their first patch?)

 

They skipped the N wagen on Salzburg-Rosenheim too...

 

Don’t forget TOD4 lights and better Draw distance for console
The Landscape and Buildings loading really Late on Series X always

 

That's quite a big extension tbf, it's almost twice the route.

 

Hold on there lets just get the crashes and blurry textures fixed before we go mucking with the draw distance on Series X.

We can see what happens with Mittenwaldbahn since TSG did that to the route and now it crashes.

Don't think we need to add extra strain on the CPU until they fix that.

 

or, as I am sure many ppl who used to work with people or now work with people know, in terms of how some ppl's brains translate statements, you have promised everything ... I have pretty much stopped counting the times when customers got told that there MIGHT be a copy of a book at our store, as MIGHT... and they barged into our store like "they told us in the other store that you (absolutely) have that book"

 

Frankfurt for one is massive so it's going to eat a lot of memory

 

I like the sound of that..With the sale went nuts on the German DLC and have really enjoyed using their rail system and wishing for more!

With what you have learnt with Frankfurt S-Bahn hopefully we will see more non-linear routes going forward along with more interconnecting points for route hopping which Frankfurt S-bahn will create and looking forward to utilizing!

 

Not a question but a request: can you have the FPS counter on during the live stream?

 

True but PS5 got the full timetable for FTF so I'm leaning towards the Fernbahnhof traffic being what tips it over the edge.

 

But that's only what 530 services at most (I have basically all packs except a 363) , the new S-Bahn is 1000, hence why console is getting 600..

I dont think FTF is the full picture and could be bigger with more AI and maybe a larger S-bahn schedule? I have a modded Munich-Augsburg TT that has 2024 services, and that doesn't include non-drivable AI (and thankfully not a single issue, touch wood!)

 

I mean, if it comes up, an extension of the S-bahn services down to the Tief platforms wouldn't be the worst either, hint hint...

Seriously though, thanks for explaining what's going on with the console issues, definitely appreciate it's like trying to find a needle in a very large haystack!

 

Thank you so much for your reply. I really appreciate your hard work and I am looking forward to future updates on your progress.


Best regards,

Nick

 

Both can be true. However, while "memory issues" can be fixed to an extent (and you can't quantify them they're just guessing), the console/PC specs and issue are clearly laid out and an obstacle. Therefore it's the most applicable to address.

 

Some of the customers only own bowls that are 40% of the size, and have forks instead of spoons to eat with. And then complain when they get smaller servings and they cannot taste the milk.

 

Can you "store" processing speed in the cupboard to use later?
If not it's not comparable at all.
If you INSIST on using cereal analogy for a technology (oddly) then it'd be like you being allergic to the nuts in the cereal and complaining you can't eat them like other people. You can pick them out but the company says "we really don't want to sell nuts to people who are allergic because SOME people are going to eat them, get sick and sue us for poisoning them."
Because that's what already happens when people with lower end consoles and older computers get new high processing content and it doesn't play perfectly.
It's a call by the company whether they want to sell it with the nuts and risk it... or just sell a version without nuts for people with nut allergies and avoid the hassle.
Yes technically the people who get the "nut free" variety are not getting the "same" content with nuts as the other cereal, but not offering that nut-free variety will mean all those nut allergy people will have to (at best) go through the whole box and pick the nuts out, frustrating them and (at worst) getting allergic reactions to the nuts/nut residue still in it (ie game crash/stutter)
DTG in silly cereal terms was given the options of:
NOT selling "Honey, Nuts and Oats" cereal with nuts in it, selling it with nuts and making peopel with allergies pick them out, or offer a "nut free" version in addition to the original.
They chose the third option.
Now they are being attacked by people with nut allergies who are screaming that they should have the "option" to pick the nuts out by hand if they want to.
I'm free market. I say let them do that if it floats their boat.
Just EXPLAINING that DTG didn't do it out of some odd conspiracy theory they want to "punish console players." They did it as a rational choice to make things "easier" as the preferred option.
I'm not defending their choice as the BEST choice... but that it wasn't irrational or mean spirited like the conspiracy theorists are assuming.
It was simply A choice out of several available, NONE of which the console community wants.
But those are the options available since they don't have a magical "memory leak fix" (as it's not one bug like "curing cancer") and they can't change console performance.
That's my whole point... people are making outlandish claims and lashing out at a design team that isn't entirely at fault, demanding unrealistic things.
You can be disappointed without being unreasonable and mean to them personally.

 

Hence my pointing out that it's not a matter of what they're sold, they buy the same product (With a free upgrade if they get the new console) - they just happen to own suboptimal tools to use for consuming it, which limit their experience (The smaller bowls and forks in my version of the analogy, which corrects the original comparison in a way that doesn't invoke anything innate to the consumer like the allergy version does*). The cereal box is the same one no matter who is buying it. But what you try to eat it with will determine how easily it goes down and how much of it you can enjoy.
No doubt the soon to arrive PS6 and Xbox Whatever will once again have a free Gen10 upgrade which brings it up to what PC players have been enjoying for a while now, until the game gets even more bloated.

*Would of course that allergies could be made to go away for a one-time outlay of money, instead of being a lifelong additional expense on finding food which does not include the allergens

 

Well the best part of the free market is the customer gets to decide whether to buy at all in the end. Everything else aside i still say they should at least be providing a discount for such a comparatively poor version of the same product.

As train sims are certainly nothing like a necessity, it'll be interesting to see how this goes from a sales position.

DTG are fortunate to be (mostly) the only game in town, especially on consoles, so they'll probably continue to get away with this stuff.

I don't think there's any conspiracies btw, i just think it's a combination of poor management, complacency at lacking a true competitor, and, to be fair, some external factors like publisher pressure to release too quickly and that hiring quality talent for a niche studio is probably challenging.

I guess the core of my frustrations is that it's unlikely any of these factors will change when the inevitable TSW6 launches in a few months, so where's the hope? I've been playing train sims since MSTS, and TSW was so fresh and exciting for me in the beginning because it had so much potential and opportunity to NOT just be an incremental improvement to TSC, which was itself an incremental improvement to MSTS. And now we're back to annual releases that only make sense for the publisher, that at most add one or two small features, incompletely implemented (suspension overhaul), and at worst are an actual downgrade (looking at you, TSW5)

Ffs, they've completely given up on huge chunks of train-simming (Steam traction? Not in development. US Freight? Not in development. US Passenger? Is it still in development? There has been precisely zero on the roadmap since Boston-Worcester launch months ago, so who knows).

We still don't have announcements (except when 3rd-parties do it, somehow), eBula, PTC, ETCS, on and on and on.

But, no, no..it's the children who are wrong!

 

I can accept what’s happening to consoles, but I would like an explanation and why not a lower price

 

And that's why I suggested they would be "picking out the nuts" and complaining about it since they "can't process" that part.
Saying something like they have a "smaller bowl" suggests they can still use the whole product, which isn't true with the DLC. It will simply usually "crash." A smaller bowl won't explode or break if you pour too much cereal in it, and there is no equivalent for a console to "not pour as much in" except limiting the layers...which is the same thing as "picking the nuts out" so that's already covered.
Making it an "allergy" portrays both the potentially disastrous consequence of a full system crash as well as the possibility that some people can handle better than others depending on the severity (ie what version of console they are on, how many games are on it, etc) as not every "allergy" is the same.
And yes you can work through some allergies (like lactose intolerance) and you can take medication.

Note that I didn't choose the "cereal" analogy. I chose a hybrid car with gasoline and battery components, saying you could use the electrical components when you installed a charger for it. That would in fact be the better analogy as it's tech based and is inherent in system capacity not personal capacity.

But you chose to use cereal instead.

 

What about a lower price, then an "upgrade" price later for the "full timetable" for when people upgrade in the future?
I think the intent (judging by the marketing) that having the whole content there, but "locked away" for full price would avoid this later complaint about "upgrade cost" because it would just "unlock" on your account once you moved to a PS 6 or whatever they call it.
That way they can offer a "free upgrade" (which people love to hear) and not have to say "well now you gotta pay to upgrade to the full version" (which people hate and will forget they paid less initially)