Upcoming Release Frankfurt S-bahn: Coming Soon!

Did you read the story or just skip it and assume it was a personal attack on you?
Have you ever worked customer service?
For that matter... do you live in a world with people in it?
Is everyone around you ALWAYS right and unemotional? =-)

The saying the "customer is always right" isn't always true, any more than it's true when your missus asks how her outfit looks and you always say "It looks beautiful honey!"
You may ALWAYS say she looks amazing, but that doesn't mean it's always true.
It pays to keep customers happy in general, but sometimes the customer is very wrong indeed and you can't please every customer. In fact, you will piss off the minority any choice you make to please the majority. That's life.

 

Lol i didn't think it was about me at all- that's weird!

I worked at a supermarket for ten years when i was younger so of course i've dealt with bad customers, but let's say i was selling cereal (this is going to be silly)- there's a new variety of cereal coming out, it's going to be an awesome cereal with lots of tasty ingredients and it comes in a nice size box that's pretty good value for the money.

Hooray! Except.....for reasons (we shan't assign blame).......for 50-60% of my customers i'm only selling a 40% smaller box that contains 80% less variety of tasty ingredients. But it costs the same price. And i'm only putting a tiny disclaimer on all the promotional material, all of which, while legally sound (confirmed by lawyers and all), still seems a little ethically dubious to some people.

"Why is this happening?", some customers ask. It's a very complicated problem but we're looking into it, but it's also very much dependent on outside factors that we can't control. We can't give you a timeframe.

"Why not just delay this new cereal until you figure it out? Your existing cereals have a few issues that need fixing too." Would you rather you got nothing? How is that fair to the other customers?

But now i don't understand why they're walking out of the store angry?

Come on lol

 

In your example, the customers would unable to eat a full box of cereal for some reason....medical perhaps?
For that reason it's not a good example because it doesn't take into effect if they can all equally use the product.

A better example might be someone demanding an hybrid car (can use electric and gas)... but many of the customers don't have a charging station. So they blame the car dealer for selling an hybrid car because they don't have an electric charger installed at home.
They can BUY the car now... and use the gasoline part. Then when they get the charger at home they can use the electric part.
However, they WANT IT NOW and attack the car dealer for daring to sell something they themselves don't have the equipment at home to support.

 

And who are you to moralize me that I am not satisfied with the product I paid for ???? The product was released by DTG, so logically I am complaining on the DTG forum. And I would say that I am not the only one !!!

 

I very much appreciate Matt's explanations, I think good communication between the company and customers is very much needed at this time in order not to encourage pointless speculation and misunderstandings and to calm the waters a little.

I'm also glad to hear that DTG is taking this issue seriously and that there is a remote hope that all or at least part of the deleted console timetable will be restored. Fingers crossed!

 

Not buying something for £30 if it isn't the product you want isn't throwing your toys out of the pram. And it's not that I WANT IT NOW, at all, but I do want it to be complete, I do want the aspects that make Train Sim most enjoyable to me, and are the strongest part of TSW. To hold off on buying it until then makes it more likely to happen. I have about 30 routes, plus a few on my wishlist, plus other games, so why wouldn't I exercise my only power as a consumer to influence DTG, to give them my feedback in the most meaningful way.

 

Never discussed the morality of emotions.
I said it's counterproductive and misplaced if you want a solution.
You are free to rant emotionally all day, as long as you realize it won't solve anything.
Once again, I ask you.... what does DTG do to fix the problem of consoles having insufficient CPU power?
I gave a couple options.... which you ignored in favor of whining about emotions.
I get it you're frustrated.
If this is your emotional release to feel better, then just say that up front and we'll dismiss it as such and move on.
If you want something concrete to change, then you'll have to be more specific and constructive.

 

Consoles have demonstrated time and time again that they don't have insufficient CPU power. The suggestion is that DTG fix the memory leaks in the game, which the community has talked about for a while, which DTG have acknowledged exist, and are apparently working on. That's what they should do, and it's encouraging that they seem to be.

 

I can testify to that. I am running games on my XSX that my poor old PC couldn't dream of running- but with judicious .ini juggling it runs full TSW timetables pretty well. But that is a function of a PC having different, and more flexible, architecture than a console.

 

Have they?
Or do other games simply have more "work arounds" to avoid processing requirements?
Using simplified AI assets for example instead of fully detailed versions?
Being able to "hop in any train" means every train must be fully modeled.
Demanding more services and also tracking them in real time takes more power than simply having them disappear when out of sight.
Yes, some things can be optimized more, but there's also inherent differences in TSW vs other games that require more CPU performance.

 

Um, yes, they do. 16GB of combined operating RAM and VRAM is pretty darn marginal, where a typical (not top end) PC has 32 + 8.

 

Actually that statement might persuade me to buy this route because:

a) I enjoy complexity and it's been sadly lacking in TSW since Rush Hour.
b) I'm curious to see if my 3080 and 32GB will be able to play it decently.

( I still think that releasing the route this way is backasswards. It would have been fairer and made more sense to offer the same reduced timetable and layers to all platforms. But I'm perversely glad they didn't.)

 

Less than a PC doesn't mean insufficient - why would these two massive companies set a baseline for the biggest games in the world based on insufficient hardware?. There are plenty of highly detailed and complex games playable on them and the list is increasing. Are you suggesting TSW is the most complex game there? No, there are memory leaks and inefficiencies, as DTG acknowledge. There are loads of games where you can enter any vehicle, enter myriad buildings, traverse a large (and non-linear world), interact with multiple characters, where loads of out-of-sight information is being crunched in the background. Of course, they are different, but are they all less complex? I doubt it.

I guess the proof is in the pudding, but I believe that with work, this route will work properly on Gen 9 console.

 

Thanks Matt for your great information, communication is key.

But I want to make sure of it.

So you're working on finally fixing the general stability problems and blurry textures on the consoles and not letting the consoles die out?

Are you also working on bringing the S-Bahn Frankfurt timetable with 1000 journeys to the console? Do I understand that correctly?



Otherwise, thank you very much for your efforts and for listening to us, that's extremely important!

 

oh, now trying gaslighting, are we ... what you have seen above is a nice example of being annoyed to a high degree ... like when a kid starts crying in our store and it doesnt stop and the parent is at the other end of the mall, giving exactly zero ...s while our heads are about to explode, but obviously we cant silence the kid unless we choose violence lol

 

thanks a lot for the reply... which is a much welcome shot of reason in this thread among all the screams... personally, I am hyped for the new route and on the other hand, wish you all luck and fortitude in facing the problems you know of and just discovered... cheers

 

All good, we are optimistic about the future!

 

That saying is actually incomplete, the full thing is "the customer is always right... in matter of taste". Somewhere along the line people have shortened it to what we commonly know. I work in customer service, and I am the first person to call out customers on their BS! Somehow, I haven't gotten fired yet lol.

 

NO!

 

Huh, never knew that. Where did it originally come from?

 

To me this is a problem with the wrong order of things. I think the sane way would be to fix, create, communicate. What I often see is create, communicate, fix.

I very much appreciate Matt's commitment to fixing the underlying issues, and bringing the full timetable to consoles in the first place. But the order is all wrong. It's like with Mittenwaldbahn - a route is developed, communication follows (sorry about the mountains, but not doable) and then the devs finally fix stuff and it is great. But it comes AFTER customers were already in arms over the issues.

We would all be happier if DTG would not back themselves into a corner like this.

 

I found it on a Reddit rabbit hole one weekend while I was bored. It hasn't been narrowed down to any one person, but Marshall Field is the common source.

Of course it being Reddit, it could be total BS, but if spreading that information (even if inaccurate) results in people being a little kinder to staff behind [insert profession here] counter, then I'm more than happy to buy into that particular misinformation.

 

Thank you very much Matt for the feedback provided today.

This is very much appreciated.

I like a lot this game and I am looking forward to see high quality content in the years to come for my PS5, which I am not planing to replace until there is a PS6.

 

I hope this is sarcasm. Clearly all is not good. And who are " we "?

 

Why consoles are weather than PCs
https://www.gameslearningsociety.org/wiki/why-are-consoles-weaker-than-pcs/

It's fairly balanced and tackles the bigger issues. Consoles are fine for what they are, and for many people are better because they're simple, cheaper and designed for narrow windows of performance. (One XBox S should run like every other XBox S, and close to an XBox X, etc) I think that explains many of TSW's issues too.

Lower RAM explains why many consoles struggle with high-asset situations (lots of trees or buildings on a route for example) , or tracking assets on the map that aren't even on screen graphically) That tracking of lots of assets is more a RAM limitation than CPU/GPU (which consoles are better at) The more AI...the more RAM... so it makes sense that lots of AI trains means higher RAM usage...which consoles are poor at.

Also, TSW on PC is designing for a BROAD audience and can't account for EVERY situation because they can't test everyone's individual (and very different variety) of systems out there. There are dozens and dozens of different options on a PC setup you can install and set...whereas on a console it's pretty cut and dried. You buy what you buy and they're all more or less the same out of the box.

This could probably make a whole separate thread for discussion rather than hijack the Frankfurt S Bahn thread.
However, the issues it brings up (why 1,000 AI services doesn't work well on consoles due to RAM limits for example) is relevant as it's a harbinger of things to come if people keep demanding more content that require higher end PC hardware.

Yes you can "optimize" but that's not a magic wand. You do tend to hit walls where it's less effective and it's not universally productive.
16 RAM is still 16 RAM. If you start making games that use more than that, it's not going to work.
So you'd be limited to doing what you can under that cap.
TSW has created additional workload with new features that use more power, so that can't be "optimized" away. It wouldn't be acceptable to players "swap in simple AI trains" for example, or eliminate the ability to walk around, or "simplify or bundle assets." Every switch you add to a train for example is now there and has to be tracked, even when you're not using it. No none is advocating to remove those elements, so it means trains will keep getting more complex with more for the computer (PC or console) to "track" in game.
If there are 10% more THINGS in game at a time to keep track of and your framerate on the same hardware drops by 10%...that just makes sense. The demand for more from TSW has created a burden that means they have less flexibility in what to streamline or eliminate to improve performance.

 

I'm not sure anyone needs a lecture in why consoles can't match high end PCs, but as has been made clear to those actually reading this thread there are memory related issues within TSW5 that DTG are working on resolving, that is to the benefit of consoles players (it won't blur/crash) as well as PC players (it will run quicker).

Once those memory issues are fixed if they still can't deliver an improved timetable then I shall be first in line to bow down and worship at the feet of your amazing PC.

 

Many thanks Matt for answering my question. I will buy it for my gen8 Xbox and intall it to my PC. Thank you for taking the time to respond l appreciate that.

 

Exactly that's why DTG should be more focused at the core of the game, the train simulation. The additional new graphic and gameplay things are nice to see, but like Matt said they need additional performance, that is limited on consoles.

 

This is the part i don't get at all- the memory leak affects ALL platforms, and not every PC player runs a supercomputer that can just brute-force through it- the minimum specs for PC are 8GB system RAM and 2GB of VRAM!

I only have 16GB of RAM on my laptop and i get the texture bugs after playing for an extended time, but if i fire up the same route (Mildmay is the worst offender for me) on Series X, it's immediately blurry.

Why are so many people defending a game that the devs themselves admit runs worse than it's predecessor? Maybe they can't fully optimize their way out of this mess and i'm willing to admit that, but the performance drop off from TSW4 to TSW5 is very noticeable and not just on FFA, or the other complex routes- i just think people are grasping onto the idea that console memory limitations are the entirety of the problem and i'd argue the rest of the evidence doesn't support that.

In the end, if they really can't get the full timetable to work on consoles, i guess it is what it is, but they shouldn't be charging the same price for so much less content IMO.

 

Hello Matt,

thank you very much for your detailed answer.

I know you will find a solution with the memory problem at this route and in general.

 

For those thinking this will be resolved for console, as Matt says, he makes no promises. DTG Matt is a class act, with his communication, effort, desire, positivity in the face of adversity. However, we’ve heard this before with Munich -Augsburg and we’re still waiting on that one. We can live in hope but that’s all it is at the moment. It’s not even light at the end of a tunnel. Why should console players be charged full price for a lesser package, if it’s a “Frankfurt S-bahn light” dlc, then charge us appropriately and not for mugs.

 

What do you expect with a console that costs a paltry 500.00 euros?
Even a low-end Handeld costs more.

 

We don't know. You have right with HMA. But there was SPG too. DTG made is possible on Gen8 with TSW2. And this year WCML over Shap got additional trains on Gen8 after at release you had only 187 with Intercity trains.

 

And once it is optimised, maybe a new timetable?

 

Get some rest Matt, you’ve been on this 12 hours at least now. You’ve got some hard work ahead. Appreciate the communication.

 

I really appreciate this !

 

A new timetable for Munich would be great. It would be so nice to see Germanies biggest crowded with a lot of trains.

 

You’d never have had these issues if you had just worked on ECML - Newcastle to Edinburgh

 

Double dare you!

Seriously though, thanks for the post earlier about some of the stuff going on behind the scenes to try to resolve the issues on console. As someone who only now plays on console and loves Tsw when it works it's good to hear the details about some of the stuff going on trying to make it better and might stop my occasional sarcastic post.

(Whilst you're here though, could you give rivet a call and ask them to put the running sounds back on the class 170 in Fife circle which they accidentally removed in their first patch?)

 

They skipped the N wagen on Salzburg-Rosenheim too...

 

Don’t forget TOD4 lights and better Draw distance for console
The Landscape and Buildings loading really Late on Series X always

 

That's quite a big extension tbf, it's almost twice the route.

 

Hold on there lets just get the crashes and blurry textures fixed before we go mucking with the draw distance on Series X.

We can see what happens with Mittenwaldbahn since TSG did that to the route and now it crashes.

Don't think we need to add extra strain on the CPU until they fix that.

 

or, as I am sure many ppl who used to work with people or now work with people know, in terms of how some ppl's brains translate statements, you have promised everything ... I have pretty much stopped counting the times when customers got told that there MIGHT be a copy of a book at our store, as MIGHT... and they barged into our store like "they told us in the other store that you (absolutely) have that book"

 

Frankfurt for one is massive so it's going to eat a lot of memory