Thoughts About Removing Ai Trains And Reduced Timetable Series S

I think it's kinda sad, that the essence of "performance optimisation" turns out to be basically just little more than "remove stuff" and "turn freight-stations and depots into ghost towns / lost places" :/

 

That was always my understanding but AABS have stated in this very thread that they had to remove the rail tours from the PC version because of the mounting limitations of the PlayStation so now I don’t believe that to be the case. If there was 3 different versions of the game then there’d be no reason to do this and I don’t think they are making this up.

 

I was talking about Gen 9 consoles (XBSX/PS5/PS5Pro). Even if/when Gen 8 is officially gone, they will still have to scale it down for Gen 9, which is pretty much a mid-tier PC (Although that is going even lower by the month as more powerful hardware comes out).

 

That’s what optimization is though. Something has to give in order to scale it for a lower tier system. The hope is that it can be texture based, but that may not be the best approach.

What also hurts consoles vs mid-lower end PCs is the blended memory architecture. It was a big issue at first for MSFS and still somewhat, but they seem to have been able to support it better in 2024 since much of the content outside of the base stuff can all be streamed now and only load the immediate near scenery/objects.

 

On PS5 it says 14 on the underground but when you actually go on it there’s defo more than 14!

 

If I remember correctly from a post from a 3rd party dev, 3rd parties do make and test a DLC for PC, then deliver it to DTG, who ports it over to console. So if this is the case, then they actually work with one version for all platforms.

 

That's what I find very strange. DTG have made it clear in the past that there are effectively separate versions of this game. Why would AABS have to cut content on a PC timetable due to an issue on Playstation and said issue hasn't affected PC players?

Unless what DTG said previously is not true which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest

 

One theory (and it is just a theory before the A-holes jump down on me) is that previously this was a case, but due to penny pinching by DTG and cut in staffing this is no longer the case and there’s one version built for the lowest common denominator and the rest of us suffer. I don’t think AABS are lying and I hope that DTG haven’t been lying for years so the only possible conclusion is something has changed recently

 

As mentioned above already, 3rd party devs seem to work with one (pc) version and DTG does the ports to console. Development of multiple versions for the different platforms are maybe still the case for DTG their own routes.

 

From what has been said also in the past it sounds to me like this:
There are different builds for the platforms that add/change things, for example the graphical settings for PC or the draw distances.
But according to what AABS (I think Kezz) has said, it seems that it is not possible (at least currently) to have a layer included only in some of the builds, so in the current example this would mean including the railtour layer only for the PC build but not for the consoles.
That would basically mean that DTG need to provide the required infrastructure here, namely to have "conditional" layers that are only included in specific builds.

 

i feel so very conflicted. on the one hand it is a game and i get that it isnt the be all end all. there are much much bigger fish to fry in this world. but on the other hand, i dont honestly know the last time it was acceptable to sell something that is described one way, with all the layers and inclusions and feature etc etc and then have those features reduced or removed meaning the content is now genuinely different from the way it was being "sold" to us in preview streams. it feels very bait and switch, very dishonest and kinda scummy.

not that Dovetail really care at all, if they did they wouldnt be making and breaking promises constantly, releasing broken DLC that need to be watered down.. sorry i mean optimised..

Why would Dovetail fix ANYTHING when all they need to do is wait for the next Just Trains route to come and distract us all, and then as soon as TSW7 releases its an entirely new store page with all new and fresh reviews, so long TSW6 problems.

 

That’s exactly how I read what you wrote!

That’s why I’m even more puzzled as to why they’re now removing things from the PC versions that wouldn’t be necessary at all for the PC version.

And I have to agree with hecticjojo, too.
DTG tells you what features are supposed to be included, but sometimes those features are missing at launch, or they get removed later with an update.

Sorry, DTG, but in my opinion, this is just a rip-off.

 

I guess, and this is really a guess, 3rd party devs cannot do anything else then remove stuff from the one version they make and then send it back to DTG so they can release it as "patch" on all platforms. I'm thinking, are there 3rd party routes released for Xbox One and PS4 recently? Because if they can't target specific platforms, then it means both the PC and GEN9 version would be limited to what GEN8 can handle and I don't think devs want this.

 

But apparently that's how it is, Lexie.
I think it was hecticjojo who wrote somewhere that everyone is actually getting the version that runs on Gen 8 consoles.

And I don't think 3P Developers would want it that way either. Because something like that would really be a slap in the face to the customers.

 

Think we all need to ask some very searching questions on the Trent Valley stream next week, partIcularly the business ethics of selling a product then later nerfing its features because nobody realised it was going to cause issues on some systems. Perhaps DTG should give customers who bought Birmingham to Crewe a £5 store credit in recognition of the complete balls up they have made.

Not that DTG will answer any of that, of course - it will be the usual silly headphones and high five self congratulatory session, probably run the route shrouded in a pea soup fog too.

 

i was taking a little poetic license, i dont know that as a PS5 user i am getting a PS4 timetable, but the trend of reducing the full fat timetable down to something that WOULD be an 8th gen timetable is troubling as a 9th gen user, who buys routes advertised based on their 9th gen/PC inclusions and layers and NOT to have the watered down and reduced to something my PS4 could run - otherwise why the everloving FK did i buy a PS5 in the first place.

As an 8th gen user who complained about the reduced timetables and layers, i was constantly told "you arent loosing anything, it will all be there if you get a PS5" as the reason why i wasnt being cheated out of anything paying full price for not full content... and now that 9th gen is also getting reduced timetables i am expecting someone to say "you arent loosing anything, it will all be here if i get a PC".

Its feels like, to me, that the way forward is just "is broken? remove services and layers until not broken" which is troubling and not at all ideal. imo

 

There was a loyalty discount for anyone on steam who picked up MAC and already owned glossop, to spite all the console players who owned Glossop and picked up MAC. there is no world, no reality, no multiverse in which Dovetail will offer any of us a discount on something we have paid for (many at full retail) that was/is being hobbled and reduced - making it markedly different from what they were trying to sell at launch.

the WCMLTV stream will be the same as it ever was, on DTG Matts nasa super computer, with nothing runing in the backround and possibly a different PC running the stream/discord. with weather set to light clouds/fog to hide the stutter and help ease the blurry textures, running some pre-choses services that theyve already run to make sure all the signals work and none of the trains get stuck off path or bugged... same as it ever was

 

Indeed, so I suppose for that reason 3rd parties left out GEN8 for their DLC now. Not because it can't run with some adjustments, but because those adjustments are then in place for all platforms. It looks like the only things possible now, is making 2 timtables, a normal and reduced one, Series S gets then only the reduced one, the rest has to be cut on all versions.

 

In the same way that 8th gen gets a different WCML South than 9th gen, but the 9th gen isnt affected by this (if you get what i mean) is there a way to have the Series S essentially be (for lack of a better word) the new 8th gen. like how they make one version for 8th and one for 9th/PC can they not make one for the 8.5th gen and one for the 9th/PC.. could that work

 

Their Add-ons manager has a bit to do with this Im led to believe, DTG use this to make it easier to manage everything across all platforms while it really only aids PlayStation..This should be removed for PC or at least were the logic is to only run if the platform detected is not PC.

 

this is how they got past the last Playstation DLC limit or is this for the new DLC limit - either way, to my dumb butt it sure seems like trying to shenanigans yourself around a software/hardware limit set by Sony for some dumb reason has caused DTG some funky issues.

 

And loud coughing or laughter to cover every time there’s a sound squelch!

 

Oh I agree that AABS aren't lying. I actually feel bad for them. Many of the issues that have plaged WCML Birmingham-Crewe aren't really their fault and I feel like they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

As for DTG, well I hope so too but it wouldn't be the first time.

 

It looks like 3rd party devs are done with GEN8 anyway. Also for GEN8 there have to be more cut backs, as not only memory is an issue. The CPU's of GEN8 consoles are very weak, while Series S CPU almost has the same power as Series X. Series S has a weaker GPU and less memory.

So in conclusion, Series S can handle the game in HD mode (with a reduced timetable when needed due to less memory), while GEN8 is struggling anyway.

 

@hecticjojo

I totally agree with you!
Because if that’s the case, everyone really has to ask themselves: Why did I buy a PS5 or a PC if, in the end, so much is cut out just so it’ll run on a PS4?

And ultimately, we’re all affected by the fact that DTG sells us a product that isn’t actually the product we end up buying. Or that we buy a product with certain promises, which we do get at the time of purchase, but then get scaled back in some way or another with the first update.
Ultimately, we’re just the dumb customers who line DTG’s pockets, and DTG can rip us off left and right.

 

let's face the facts, the PC should be a separate version from the consoles (and that includes gen 8, gen 9 and series s also known as gen 8/5)
the PC shouldn't be limited by the consoles, that's simply ridiculous and unacceptable
and I'll go further, gen 9 consoles (with the exception of the series s) shouldn't have content cut, that's also unacceptable since they are the most recent generation

 

Going by vague memory here, but I think this was said to be an Xbox mandate, where the S and X models must be treated the same.

I do remember Matt saying that while the Add-On Manager was created to deal with the PS mounting limit, it had some resource management benefits on all systems.

 

That kinda rings a bell as something i kinda remember hearing, i have only been on the 9th gen for about a year and a half so i will admit a lot of the older 9th gen history i wasnt paying attention to being an 8th gen person at the time. thats a real shame if true, for the most part i imagine it would be ok, but the few outlier games like TSW, MSFS and maybe even Farm Sim just need more memory

 

This update has done nothing for me I'm on Xbox Series X and still get the same amount of blurry textures on Birmingham to Crewe. Great Western Express remaster even with services removed I've had enough of dovetail they obviously don't give a toss as long as they make money by selling content which clearly doesn't work look at the class 90 still no fix yet and it's been out for a month

 

I can only agree with you, it's a mess. They keep adding stuff, while it's very clear the game can handle it properly.
Proper testing, what's that? Optimization, what's that?

 

I was looking forward to the Trent Valley but I'm not going to purchase on day 1 it will be a buggy mess

 

I think we need to be even more careful buying new content than we already are. It seems like we can trust DTG even less than we already could? Which is worrying, especially with the new JT route just around the corner as well.

Removing content post production for performance really shows the issues with optimisation and performance.

 

Well, they did this action exactly on the right moment, just before the release of Trent Valley......

 

Why would DTG have multiple versions of the game for different platforms and where have they said that is how they develop the games?

I’m only asking because that make little to no sense when it comes to how other games are developed. And the reason why I have doubts here is that the update logs are 99% the same. The only real difference is when they say certain DLC are either not supported for Gen 8 consoles or when layers don’t exist or are limited on console. The base itself is all the same though.

Just curious where it’s been mentioned before because that’s an odd way to develop a game for multi-platform.

 

Given what’s happened with B2C I won’t be buying any dlc until that first major patch. Atleast that way I might be sold what I’m actually going to end up with. And if I’m waiting for the first patch I may as well wait for a big sale. So big congrats to DTG as they’ve managed to turn a customer who regularly paid full price on day 1 in to someone who will only be buying content as a vastly reduced price. It’s that’s not a 101 in how bot to run a successful company then I’m not sure what is.

 

Oh boy, Just Trains new route is also coming along soon too. and now that PC and 9th gen isnt even safe from content reductions who know what will happen to the potentially beautiful and busy timetable that Just Trains have made.

Is Preston to Crewe going to recieve the same 'optimisation' treatment as Birmingham to Crewe, WCML South and others have?
Will P2C's timetable be imune from the DTG butchers knife being taken to it?

 

Going back to the Gen 8 issue, the problem you have when you develop for multiple platforms is that you can't have three different teams doing the same thing. As a business you have to optimise your development time and costs, and so the version designed for the lowest-spec hardware is the version everyone gets. This applies not only to the actual inner workings of the game, but also to the user interface which is a pain to use on PC because it's designed for Xbox and PS controllers. The irony being that if you try to play on a PC using a controller, there are a bunch of things in the interface that justdon't work. Trying to change the weather before starting a run requires you to hop on the keyboard. Exiting the game requires you to grab your mouse, since they didn't think to make the "Quit" button on the main menu accessible using a controller... (presumably doesn't exist on consoles?)

It all leads to a very frustrating experience for PC users who find themselves playing a game, and being subjected to "optimisations", designed for hardware from 2013 that was already mid-range when it was released.

DTG need to drop Gen 8 completely and conduct a thorough review of what's tanking the game's performance, without using solutions that involve removing features and restricting 3rd party developers, which is what's going to end up happening ("no, you can't make a 200-mile route because it needs to run on hardware that's older than some of our customers")

 

For a lot of games, development start with a PC version. Then the game is ported over to consoles, tested on dev kits and most likely specific optimization is needed. Core issues, bugs and so on can be the same across all platforms, but there can be platform specific issues. So you will end up with the original PC version, a PS version and a Xbox version.

3rd party devs seems to deliver only the PC version to DTG, then DTG port it over, so in that case, 3rd party devs are not able to directly change stuff on the console versions for optimization.

 

And I personally find this a better way of doing it. You start with all the bells and whistles, the game that looks great on high-end machines, then prune it down so it will run on consoles and integrate these considerations into your development process. Unfortunately DTG does the opposite, designing the game with consoles in mind and hoping PC users will be happy to have a console game that just happens to run better on their machines. At no point do I expect we'll get DLSS support for example, or native support for VR headsets which has been pretty much standard in any form of transport simulator for the past few years now.

 

which is always more powerful than an end-user console
if my memory serves me right, the PS5 devkit has 32GB of RAM (I don't recall the specs of the xbox series devkit)
therefore, the problem of blurry textures, for example, will never happen in a devkit precisely because blurry textures occur due to lack of memory

 

THIS!!!

 

I don't think you're right about this, DTG did develop this game for PC in the 1st place, it was not even on console from the start. 3rd party developers did mention they develop the routes for PC, so most likely DTG does the same.

However, Epic has stated the best way to develop games in UE, is to aim and optimize for the weakest platform and then increase stuff for the stronger platforms. It seems to be easier to it that way, then have to cut back stuff for weaker platforms.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I've read those devkits simulate/emulate the actual consoles, so for Xbox you can run test for Series S and Series X with the specific specs of both consoles set. If this does give the exact same result as on the actual console is a second thing.

 

IF Dovetail were testing Train Sim World builds on a PS or Xbox devkit that was identical to or emulated the specs of a Series S, Series X or PS5 then a great many bugs would show up.

DTG say they test on consoles. the only way that isnt a blatant, bold faced lie, is if the Devkits arent identical spec to the consoles themselves OR or they do and just genuinely in all truthfullness and honesty just DONT care about TSW in any capacity

 

I think there is an implicit caveat with games like this, simulators, that they will work up to the limits of your system. Microsoft is responsible for releasing the under-specced Series S and trying to force developers to release every title for it as well.