Thoughts About Removing Ai Trains And Reduced Timetable Series S

I guess, and this is really a guess, 3rd party devs cannot do anything else then remove stuff from the one version they make and then send it back to DTG so they can release it as "patch" on all platforms. I'm thinking, are there 3rd party routes released for Xbox One and PS4 recently? Because if they can't target specific platforms, then it means both the PC and GEN9 version would be limited to what GEN8 can handle and I don't think devs want this.

 

But apparently that's how it is, Lexie.
I think it was hecticjojo who wrote somewhere that everyone is actually getting the version that runs on Gen 8 consoles.

And I don't think 3P Developers would want it that way either. Because something like that would really be a slap in the face to the customers.

 

Think we all need to ask some very searching questions on the Trent Valley stream next week, partIcularly the business ethics of selling a product then later nerfing its features because nobody realised it was going to cause issues on some systems. Perhaps DTG should give customers who bought Birmingham to Crewe a £5 store credit in recognition of the complete balls up they have made.

Not that DTG will answer any of that, of course - it will be the usual silly headphones and high five self congratulatory session, probably run the route shrouded in a pea soup fog too.

 

i was taking a little poetic license, i dont know that as a PS5 user i am getting a PS4 timetable, but the trend of reducing the full fat timetable down to something that WOULD be an 8th gen timetable is troubling as a 9th gen user, who buys routes advertised based on their 9th gen/PC inclusions and layers and NOT to have the watered down and reduced to something my PS4 could run - otherwise why the everloving FK did i buy a PS5 in the first place.

As an 8th gen user who complained about the reduced timetables and layers, i was constantly told "you arent loosing anything, it will all be there if you get a PS5" as the reason why i wasnt being cheated out of anything paying full price for not full content... and now that 9th gen is also getting reduced timetables i am expecting someone to say "you arent loosing anything, it will all be here if i get a PC".

Its feels like, to me, that the way forward is just "is broken? remove services and layers until not broken" which is troubling and not at all ideal. imo

 

There was a loyalty discount for anyone on steam who picked up MAC and already owned glossop, to spite all the console players who owned Glossop and picked up MAC. there is no world, no reality, no multiverse in which Dovetail will offer any of us a discount on something we have paid for (many at full retail) that was/is being hobbled and reduced - making it markedly different from what they were trying to sell at launch.

the WCMLTV stream will be the same as it ever was, on DTG Matts nasa super computer, with nothing runing in the backround and possibly a different PC running the stream/discord. with weather set to light clouds/fog to hide the stutter and help ease the blurry textures, running some pre-choses services that theyve already run to make sure all the signals work and none of the trains get stuck off path or bugged... same as it ever was

 

Indeed, so I suppose for that reason 3rd parties left out GEN8 for their DLC now. Not because it can't run with some adjustments, but because those adjustments are then in place for all platforms. It looks like the only things possible now, is making 2 timtables, a normal and reduced one, Series S gets then only the reduced one, the rest has to be cut on all versions.

 

In the same way that 8th gen gets a different WCML South than 9th gen, but the 9th gen isnt affected by this (if you get what i mean) is there a way to have the Series S essentially be (for lack of a better word) the new 8th gen. like how they make one version for 8th and one for 9th/PC can they not make one for the 8.5th gen and one for the 9th/PC.. could that work

 

Their Add-ons manager has a bit to do with this Im led to believe, DTG use this to make it easier to manage everything across all platforms while it really only aids PlayStation..This should be removed for PC or at least were the logic is to only run if the platform detected is not PC.

 

this is how they got past the last Playstation DLC limit or is this for the new DLC limit - either way, to my dumb butt it sure seems like trying to shenanigans yourself around a software/hardware limit set by Sony for some dumb reason has caused DTG some funky issues.

 

And loud coughing or laughter to cover every time there’s a sound squelch!

 

Oh I agree that AABS aren't lying. I actually feel bad for them. Many of the issues that have plaged WCML Birmingham-Crewe aren't really their fault and I feel like they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

As for DTG, well I hope so too but it wouldn't be the first time.

 

It looks like 3rd party devs are done with GEN8 anyway. Also for GEN8 there have to be more cut backs, as not only memory is an issue. The CPU's of GEN8 consoles are very weak, while Series S CPU almost has the same power as Series X. Series S has a weaker GPU and less memory.

So in conclusion, Series S can handle the game in HD mode (with a reduced timetable when needed due to less memory), while GEN8 is struggling anyway.

 

@hecticjojo

I totally agree with you!
Because if that’s the case, everyone really has to ask themselves: Why did I buy a PS5 or a PC if, in the end, so much is cut out just so it’ll run on a PS4?

And ultimately, we’re all affected by the fact that DTG sells us a product that isn’t actually the product we end up buying. Or that we buy a product with certain promises, which we do get at the time of purchase, but then get scaled back in some way or another with the first update.
Ultimately, we’re just the dumb customers who line DTG’s pockets, and DTG can rip us off left and right.

 

let's face the facts, the PC should be a separate version from the consoles (and that includes gen 8, gen 9 and series s also known as gen 8/5)
the PC shouldn't be limited by the consoles, that's simply ridiculous and unacceptable
and I'll go further, gen 9 consoles (with the exception of the series s) shouldn't have content cut, that's also unacceptable since they are the most recent generation

 

Going by vague memory here, but I think this was said to be an Xbox mandate, where the S and X models must be treated the same.

I do remember Matt saying that while the Add-On Manager was created to deal with the PS mounting limit, it had some resource management benefits on all systems.

 

That kinda rings a bell as something i kinda remember hearing, i have only been on the 9th gen for about a year and a half so i will admit a lot of the older 9th gen history i wasnt paying attention to being an 8th gen person at the time. thats a real shame if true, for the most part i imagine it would be ok, but the few outlier games like TSW, MSFS and maybe even Farm Sim just need more memory

 

This update has done nothing for me I'm on Xbox Series X and still get the same amount of blurry textures on Birmingham to Crewe. Great Western Express remaster even with services removed I've had enough of dovetail they obviously don't give a toss as long as they make money by selling content which clearly doesn't work look at the class 90 still no fix yet and it's been out for a month

 

I can only agree with you, it's a mess. They keep adding stuff, while it's very clear the game can handle it properly.
Proper testing, what's that? Optimization, what's that?

 

I was looking forward to the Trent Valley but I'm not going to purchase on day 1 it will be a buggy mess

 

I think we need to be even more careful buying new content than we already are. It seems like we can trust DTG even less than we already could? Which is worrying, especially with the new JT route just around the corner as well.

Removing content post production for performance really shows the issues with optimisation and performance.

 

Well, they did this action exactly on the right moment, just before the release of Trent Valley......

 

Why would DTG have multiple versions of the game for different platforms and where have they said that is how they develop the games?

I’m only asking because that make little to no sense when it comes to how other games are developed. And the reason why I have doubts here is that the update logs are 99% the same. The only real difference is when they say certain DLC are either not supported for Gen 8 consoles or when layers don’t exist or are limited on console. The base itself is all the same though.

Just curious where it’s been mentioned before because that’s an odd way to develop a game for multi-platform.

 

Oh boy, Just Trains new route is also coming along soon too. and now that PC and 9th gen isnt even safe from content reductions who know what will happen to the potentially beautiful and busy timetable that Just Trains have made.

Is Preston to Crewe going to recieve the same 'optimisation' treatment as Birmingham to Crewe, WCML South and others have?
Will P2C's timetable be imune from the DTG butchers knife being taken to it?

 

Going back to the Gen 8 issue, the problem you have when you develop for multiple platforms is that you can't have three different teams doing the same thing. As a business you have to optimise your development time and costs, and so the version designed for the lowest-spec hardware is the version everyone gets. This applies not only to the actual inner workings of the game, but also to the user interface which is a pain to use on PC because it's designed for Xbox and PS controllers. The irony being that if you try to play on a PC using a controller, there are a bunch of things in the interface that justdon't work. Trying to change the weather before starting a run requires you to hop on the keyboard. Exiting the game requires you to grab your mouse, since they didn't think to make the "Quit" button on the main menu accessible using a controller... (presumably doesn't exist on consoles?)

It all leads to a very frustrating experience for PC users who find themselves playing a game, and being subjected to "optimisations", designed for hardware from 2013 that was already mid-range when it was released.

DTG need to drop Gen 8 completely and conduct a thorough review of what's tanking the game's performance, without using solutions that involve removing features and restricting 3rd party developers, which is what's going to end up happening ("no, you can't make a 200-mile route because it needs to run on hardware that's older than some of our customers")

 

For a lot of games, development start with a PC version. Then the game is ported over to consoles, tested on dev kits and most likely specific optimization is needed. Core issues, bugs and so on can be the same across all platforms, but there can be platform specific issues. So you will end up with the original PC version, a PS version and a Xbox version.

3rd party devs seems to deliver only the PC version to DTG, then DTG port it over, so in that case, 3rd party devs are not able to directly change stuff on the console versions for optimization.

 

And I personally find this a better way of doing it. You start with all the bells and whistles, the game that looks great on high-end machines, then prune it down so it will run on consoles and integrate these considerations into your development process. Unfortunately DTG does the opposite, designing the game with consoles in mind and hoping PC users will be happy to have a console game that just happens to run better on their machines. At no point do I expect we'll get DLSS support for example, or native support for VR headsets which has been pretty much standard in any form of transport simulator for the past few years now.

 

which is always more powerful than an end-user console
if my memory serves me right, the PS5 devkit has 32GB of RAM (I don't recall the specs of the xbox series devkit)
therefore, the problem of blurry textures, for example, will never happen in a devkit precisely because blurry textures occur due to lack of memory

 

THIS!!!

 

I don't think you're right about this, DTG did develop this game for PC in the 1st place, it was not even on console from the start. 3rd party developers did mention they develop the routes for PC, so most likely DTG does the same.

However, Epic has stated the best way to develop games in UE, is to aim and optimize for the weakest platform and then increase stuff for the stronger platforms. It seems to be easier to it that way, then have to cut back stuff for weaker platforms.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I've read those devkits simulate/emulate the actual consoles, so for Xbox you can run test for Series S and Series X with the specific specs of both consoles set. If this does give the exact same result as on the actual console is a second thing.

 

IF Dovetail were testing Train Sim World builds on a PS or Xbox devkit that was identical to or emulated the specs of a Series S, Series X or PS5 then a great many bugs would show up.

DTG say they test on consoles. the only way that isnt a blatant, bold faced lie, is if the Devkits arent identical spec to the consoles themselves OR or they do and just genuinely in all truthfullness and honesty just DONT care about TSW in any capacity

 

I think there is an implicit caveat with games like this, simulators, that they will work up to the limits of your system. Microsoft is responsible for releasing the under-specced Series S and trying to force developers to release every title for it as well.

 

Thanks for reopening Jan. So as it seems, the post of Kezz wasn't that wrong, but they decide to bring the railtours back. Is the mount problem on PS solved in the meantime?

Also, there is no statement about the fact stuff is changed after release, reduced timetable for Series S, removal of static stock and I believe there are also AI trains removed. This feels not right and is also not solving the cause of the issues. This kind of changes after release, made we cannot trust anymore on what to get, as it can just change afterwards. This is very concerning and breaks the trust in DTG and 3rd party developers.

 

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.
There's really 3 options since they can't control how good or bad everyone's system is.

1-If they leave them in and people don't turn them off... people whine it's blurry.
2-If people turn them off, they whine they "aren't seeing them all."
3-If they only ship with the number of services for the "worst" computer/console out there able to play it then people complain again like #2.

The problem is often less the game, but more the wide variety of platforms (with a near infinite amount of programs and conflicts) people are playing on giving entirely different experiences.

I think they either leave them all in, selectable to turn off and IGNORE the complaints of people who exceed their system capability... or they make the new "standard" less routes even if there's more in real life so that the lowest level user can run them fine.

You can't please everyone since people will NOT have the same experience on wildly different systems. That's like expecting every car on the road to be equally fast. Some just aren't.

 

That's totally not the point. If they do proper testing before release, they will know what is possible and not. Based on the test results, they can optimize as much as they can and bring it to the platforms in the best possible state and amount of services. They can inform what which platform gets. Changing this after release is a no go, you promised something and then change it.

Releasing for console is even more easy, as you know the platforms and their specs. PC is a more difficult one, because of the wide range of specs

If they told beforehand, Series S will get a reduced timetable, fine, people can decide if they can live with that or not. In my opinion, those problems on consoles with crashes, blurry textures and so on, can be avoided by proper testing before release.

On this moment the players are the testers. Then next, they don't have any idea how to fix it, they made a different timetable, still the same issues plus new issues and no one is happy.

 

This is precisely why DTG needs to fix the game rather than "optimise" it by removing services and reducing texture quality. TSW7 will no doubt be more demanding than TSW6, do you maybe think they should remove the "Ultra", "Very High" and "High" graphics settings for everyone just to ensure it can run on hardware that's 14 years old?

 

I don't think that will help much since they are different computer specs. While there is overlap, the graphics is from your graphics card for what you can see. The system RAM is what tracks the things you can't see in the background. Consoles actually do graphics far better than background process tracking, so turning down what it's good at could help when you're running a high speed train (the next bit of scenery loading in) but it won't help with the tracking of AI trains which is most of the problem with blur and stuttering in this game anyway.

There's some overlap, but it doesn't address the underlying issues. To "fix" it you'd have to a) eliminate the extra services piling up, and b) reduce the services load on the route. Or...c) upgrade to a new PC. You are correct that people wanting to run modern releases on 10+ year old hardware is why it's most noticeable. Again, this tracks with many other games that are continually updated but people keep insist on using older computers. (It's not just people on consoles. Very few people like spending money to upgrade and maintain things. Most people would prefer to drive their old car until it falls apart rather than buy a new one. It's just human nature. However, at some point it becomes inevitable.)

 

It was a rhetorical question. Of course downgrading the graphics settings for all users won't fix the issues.

 

Sorry I took you at your word because that's a common enough thing for people to actually think.

 

I can see both sides of it. If the timetable was causing crashes or serious performance issues, then I understand why DTG felt they needed to make changes. At the same time, it's never great when content is removed after people have already paid for it. What bothers me most is the removal of playable services. AI reductions are less noticeable to me, but losing actual drivable services means the product now offers less gameplay than it did at launch. For Series S players, stability is important, but I think it's fair for customers to be disappointed when advertised content gets reduced after purchase.

 

The thing is, if they do proper testing, then they should have know before release about issues because of a to busy timetable. If you look at the state of recent releases, but also earlier ones, you'll see a pattern of bugs and performance issues.

AI traffic and static stock can make a route go from lifeless to a busy and realistic looking, so yeah it bothers me. But in the end, taking away what is advertised bothers me the most and is a big red flag to me.

 

More about Sonys requirements with addons than Console memory although that is an issue.