General Discussion Is Gone

Jan has posted on the announcement thread - don’t know how to quote on mobile - but long story short they are considering changing the initial plan due to the feedback and will keep us updated.

 

We'll see if that actually means anything...
In the meantime, we should keep making ourselves heard.

 

i would like to thank DTG for at least making notes and considering changes that could suit us better.

 

We'll have to wait to actually see what is actually set in stone once the dust settles...

But if we have have prevailed, regardless of our differences of opinion at times I would be incredibly proud of those in the community that have passionately advocated for General Discussions survival.

 

Good to hear. Can't say losing GD is enough to make me want to bin the game, but it has made me suspicious of the company's motives. Perhaps that says more about me than them, in which case I'll happily take that one on the chin and use this as a reminder to myself to be more trusting in future. We'll see ...

 

That’s the irony of it all, they can only actually see the impact that decision had because of General Discussion.

There would have been no feedback thread for it from DTG, and even in this thread whilst you can see a notable response with many comments & those comments receiving significant community reaction in terms of likes & responses. It’s not until you look at other GD posts such as the poll & you can see there are over 200 users in support of GD - no small number for a train simulator.

I’ve said it twice already but I’ll say it again, I do not want any & all discussion & feedback to turn into threads like ‘enough is enough’. They go on for far too long to sustain the original message & similar things happen with feedback threads, issues get left in a swarm of conversation that’s not even necessarily off topic. GD serves as a way for the more popular community sentiment to stay relevant for longer - never mind the community resourcing it offers.

 

One of the best things for me about the forum is when a route is announced, then there is always that anticipation and discussion centred around what might be included and where it might go. The JT routes in particular for me are very interesting in that regard as it leads to discussion about the "old days".

I was thinking about that this morning and wonder if DTG really wants to lose that aspect of the forums. It does sound like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

 

In that case the forum needs to be allowed to continue until a decision is made.

 

I'm sorry but I think DTG your making a bad decision on closing down the general discussion sub forum as many users of the community will now be turned away. This channel was designed so we could talk about things TSW related or general things and ideas and you getting rid of it is a big mistake in my eyes

 

I'm glad they have heard all of the feedback! Hopefully that signals some light at the end of the tunnel!

 

Hopefully there is a change of heart at Chatham. Whatever benefits the removal of GD may have is, in my opinion, outweighed by the negatives.

If people are crossing lines, ban them and good riddance.

 

Community moderation. Almost like what we've suggested for this place. =-)

 

ÐTG own and pay for this forum so it is basically up to them to decide how to run it and what is available. Saying that, personally the GD section has been where I have always posted the vast majority of my often feeble minded "contributions".

This section is where I have previously complained about shortcomings and failings in the game. More recently I have used GD to praise DTG for huge all round improvements. I have also given well deserved praise for the absolute superb work by Liam on GWE and ECW.

This is the section I will now use to give my really positive feedback on the excellent new 3rd party routes I have bought recently. An enthusiastic thumbs up to Just Trains (Blackpool to Preston and Preston to Carlisle), Firefly simulations for the beautiful Medway Valley route and All Aboard Studios for Trent Valley.

The GD section is like the Speakers Corner of DTG and can be chaotic at times but is always vibrant and passionate. It is the very core of what I have felt part of since I first got TSW in 2019. If there is such a thing as a TSW community then this is where it meets up and exchanges ideas, views and suggestions. Removing this section from the forum will rip the beating heart out of the TSW community and would be a really tragic loss.

At the end of the day, what will be will be and I have no real influence on the decision. All I know is if the most interesting part of this forum is deleted then OUR incomparably passionate if sometimes rowdy community will end and that is sad.

 

Reddit is a bit like the wild west though. Some of the moderation on communities is less than impartial to say the least.

 

This is basically how I feel about Wonders of Sodor. Like, you literally summed up many of the issues that have been bringing the game down. The game has an amazing foundation, but the limited content, repetitive gameplay, lack of AI traffic, and some of the gameplay restrictions really hold it back.

I'd join the discussion on Discord, but I was banned after becoming frustrated with the lack of clear communication. Looking back, I know I let my frustration get the better of me, but it came from wanting the game to reach its full potential.

 

We're running a poll on what to call the new forum here if anyone is interested
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/alternate-discussion-forum-options.98480/
So far it's between "Third Rail Depot" and "Rail Sim Community"

Even if DTG does change their mind, I think it can't hurt to have another alternative ready just in case.
Would open up discussion on other sims as well in separate areas.

 

I do not want to be the type of person who unfairly criticizes or undermines the entire Dovetail team, because I genuinely respect the effort and dedication that goes into developing these games. My criticism comes from a place of wanting Wonders of Sodor to succeed, not from a desire to disparage the developers.

That said, I sometimes get the impression that Dovetail does not engage particularly well with criticism from its community. I have heard claims that some fans were dismissed for not fully understanding certain gameplay decisions. While it is true that many players, myself included, are not game developers, that does not mean their feedback lacks value. Constructive criticism can provide important insight into the player experience.

Although I do not play Train Simulator 6, I believe this issue is still relevant because it reflects a broader concern about community engagement. I fully understand the need to moderate discussions and maintain a respectful environment, but closing general discussion channels can give the impression that player feedback is being limited rather than encouraged. Open and respectful discussion is often one of the most valuable tools a developer has, as it allows passionate fans to share ideas, identify issues, and contribute suggestions that can ultimately improve the game.

 

And the Wonders Of Sodor area… Devil’s advocate but I see more than a few posts appearing there prefixed with, “I wasn’t sure where to post this, but…”

Anyhow just seen that in the light of the concerns DTG are considering their original proposal. It would be fantastic if better angels prevailed - whether the solution is to keep GD and still eliminate OT or have a new “Community Corner” as I think someone already suggested.

 

If moderating is the biggest issue, why not ask members to moderate? For example, the Farming Simulator forums also has moderators not working for Giants Software.

Especially at times DTG employees can't be active on here, those moderators can keep an eye on the forums.

General Discussions is worthful for players to share everything about the game, but also for DTG to see opinions on stuff, like things going well and things going less well. I really hope, DTG will see how important the General Discussion for us as players is, I think the feedback of yesterday and today makes that very clear.

 

I think the problem is less about the level of communication & more the quality of it.

Probably close to 100% of feedback for issues reported is ‘we’re investigating’ & ‘it’s on the radar’. I’m not saying nothing gets fixed, but often we have no useful comms between an issue being reported & a patch being delivered - even when a patch is arriving, the communication is dreadful. A lot of the time the community team is all but guessing what’s in the patch & are giving us patch dates that are missed. Even with those two points we’ve seen any communication missing altogether & someone has to make a post to get a response from someone regarding the status of an update that hasn’t gone out when it was due.

Another comms issue that’s really irked me lately is how often third parties are dismissing feedback on the basis that an issue is ‘core’ and they can’t do anything about it. Upto a point that’s true & acceptable, but they are indirectly dismissing the fact that as a customer we pay the same money (in fact often more for 3P content) & expected to just accept the issue. As soon as a core related issue that is critical is brought up, we need to see action being taken regarding it. What is the 3P doing with DTG? What is DTG doing about the core in general that’s negatively effecting practically every release? Not the standard ‘not our core not our problem’ attitude.

Just lately we had DTG announce they will spend less time discussing blurry textures, as they believe they’ve shown they can release content free of the problem, however the route which released within 24 hours of that statement was victim to that very issue. The route released after that one has the same problem & we’ve seen no proper response from anyone regarding it.

Moving on to the whole ATS Class 90. That release had communication problems on the other end of the spectrum, we were subjected to a pretty horrid release & the aftermath became a blame game between ATS & DTG. We did not need to see Alan on a video saying it was a DTG issue, or DTG community team members rebuffing that fault in the forums. We were left with a borked product that sat unfixed for far too long after being led to believe the issue was simply ‘wrong build released’. There was basically no useful communication surrounding the entire debacle other than developers having drama with each other.

The list is endless, Skyhook having updates being held back with no reason given, Rivet selling products with promises of updates that don’t come & then going silent. The mess that is the ‘Jane’ drama where DTG keep letting that individual back into the fold and the multiple messes & let downs from the back of it. Ex-ATS staff slandering ATS on the forum. The frankly ever nose diving attitude of a certain highly skilled German developer. The remarks being left by DTG devs around RunningTrain discussions. On & on the list goes.

This forum has its moments of…terror from its users, don’t get me wrong, but a lot of it is on the back of the awful communication loop, we don’t get enough of the sort of comms we need to & we get too much of the comms we don’t need.

As a forum we do also have a great skill at escalating drama, but honestly what is expected when devs themselves are planting the seed of it? We have a game that is on the cusp of imploding on consoles from the mountain of issues that have been allowed to rot the core, we get no real path towards fixing the most severe of those issues & when we get to a point where DTG make it sound as if a solution is coming, they just go silent.

There are a hundred other things that factor into issues with the community, but IMO the biggest contributor to the steady negative tone is down to the quality of communication.

 

I do not wish to continue arguing about this matter, as I no longer believe it is productive or relevant. As I have stated previously, I acknowledge that I allowed my frustration to get the better of me, and I take full responsibility for my conduct.

I do not recall ever directing a slur toward you. If I did, then I sincerely apologize, as that was never my intention. I may have spoken out of frustration because I felt that my perspective was not being understood, but I do not remember using language of that nature.

Throughout my time in the community, I had disagreements with several members, including the moderators. I also recall having a dispute with one individual whom I believed was behaving in a way that was harmful to the community. However, I recognize that once I was instructed to stop, I should have done so. Instead, I allowed my emotions and feelings of frustration and betrayal to influence my judgment.

Ultimately, my frustration stemmed from my desire to see the game succeed and to receive clear, direct communication from the developers. While that explains my mindset, it does not excuse my behavior. I accept responsibility for my actions and understand the consequences that followed. I was banned, and I accept that outcome. My intention here is simply to provide context for my actions and acknowledge that I could have handled the situation in a far more constructive and respectful manner.

 

I would also like to address my ban. From my perspective, being banned over what I considered to be a relatively minor GIF felt disproportionate. If you believe the ban was justified, you are entitled to that opinion, but I respectfully disagree.

Regardless, I have accepted the outcome. I genuinely hope Dovetail improves its communication and support for future updates, as I have always wanted the game to succeed.

 

I agree with all of your points. In my view, the primary issue with Dovetail is not necessarily their ability to deliver patches or new content, but rather the quality of their communication. We are rarely given clear answers about what is planned, when updates may arrive, or what the long-term future of a game looks like. Instead, the community is often left to speculate based on vague or overly cautious responses.

I understand that Dovetail is a business, and I appreciate that plans can change. However, clear and honest communication is essential for any company. Even if the answer is that no new content is planned this year, I would rather hear that directly than be left in a constant state of uncertainty. That level of transparency would help set realistic expectations and build trust with the community.

As paying customers, especially given that these games are not inexpensive, I believe it is reasonable to expect more consistent and informative communication. I sincerely hope Dovetail takes meaningful steps to improve in this area, because better communication would go a long way toward strengthening the relationship between the developers and the community.

 

To be clear, I am not trying to portray myself as a victim or seek sympathy. My intention is simply to explain my perspective on what happened. I am an adult, and I am fully capable of accepting responsibility for my actions.

I acknowledge that I allowed my frustration to get the better of me, and I have taken responsibility for that. At the same time, I believe it is fair to express that, from my perspective, the ban felt disproportionate. Those two positions are not mutually exclusive. I can accept responsibility for my conduct while also respectfully maintaining that I felt the outcome was unfair.

I am not asking anyone to agree with my view—only to understand where I was coming from.

 

I understand that I received multiple warnings, and I accept responsibility for the behavior that led to them. However, I was genuinely confused by the decision to issue a timeout over what I considered to be a relatively minor GIF. From my perspective, that response felt disproportionate.

That said, I respect that the moderation team has the authority to make those decisions. While I believe my ban was ultimately unfair, I recognize that you may view it differently. We can respectfully disagree on that point and move forward.

At the end of the day, I believe we share the same goal: we all want Dovetail to produce the best games they can and for the community to thrive.

 

It was a gif.....
I mean, I don't know what you saw, Candace, but it was an innocent little gif of Thomas making a face. I don't see why you would get so offended that you had to tie me out. But you're right, what you think is what you think, and what I think is what I think. We can just be like adults and move on.

 

No offense, but the open discussion area are doesn't need in depth insights into the inner workings of DTG from the moderation team. If DTG folks want to post something they can of course, but a moderator is not about posting "insights." They're to enforce the community rules. It's like saying every cop on the street has to give you "insight into the inner workings of the police department." No, they don't. A volunteer moderator would just be dealing with player disputes and misconduct.
Duplicate threads, insults and threats, etc.... none of that is inside baseball.
Just generally following the posted rules.

No one would be speaking for the company or giving any inside information.

 

You and others have a lot of good and true points about communication, but anything like the above quotes that puts the responsibility for some forum members' behavior on DTG rather than the members themselves undercuts that. Jane was also a victim of the worst of forum toxicity, initially spearheaded by one member but eagerly followed by several more, who happily continued his work for him when Jane tried coming back. Meanwhile Maik, who does communicate in detail about TSW development matters but often includes unwelcome reality checks, is then ironically accused of an attitude problem.

 

Racist? What about a Thomas gif do you find racist? I was literally sending this gif (I had to go with a copy frame), and the next thing I knew, I was timed out.

 

Insights can be helpful, though. When the root of a problem is nonsense and misinformation flying about (rare on the forum, I know ), an authoritative correction from the source can nip that in the bud.

 

Well, I still got timed out by it, meaning to you, it was a warning for some reason. And I don't recall any racist gif that got me timed out or banned other than this one.

 

It’s less about the individuality of the specific example & more about the overall state of things & how it all comes together to create an environment.

I don’t think I could make a better point than the literal back & forth between a DTG staff member & a user above. Were discussing the closure of a forum over the time taken to moderate it, but apparently there’s enough time for whatever that is.

 

Thanks for asking about that. I saw someone above suggesting a community part of the forum, so maybe the forum can be split into two sections. The official part, moderated by DTG employees and the community part, moderated by certain community members.

 

Agreed

 

Dude, if this were true, you'd be discussing it by DM. There is no way to stay this course and come out looking good.