Are These Minimalist, Low Effort Content Proposals Written By Children?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by rare_common_sense, Aug 28, 2020.

  1. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

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    You make a good point, I didn't think of that. Would it be a better idea to have separate polls for proposals from USA, UK, Germany, and the rest of the world? Or is there no solution to the problem of this nationality bias?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
  2. Ardaeshir

    Ardaeshir Well-Known Member

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    True, but if it turns out that most customers are Americans who want to see mostly US routes, then the logical business decision is to make more US routes than German, UK or Welsh routes. The company needs to make a profit and that means catering to the preferences of the customers.


    For the record: I personally would appreciate a 750mm Polish narrow gauge route over anything else. But I'm not going to be cross with DTG if they decide to produce content that is more popular and more widely used.

    That's the economic reality: The small group of Poles, Zambians and Welshmen will never alone constitute a market as big as the US market.

    The trick would be to produce a Welsh, Polish or Zambian route that has a much wider, universal appeal.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
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  3. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    True, we need to look at it from DTG's perspective really.
     
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  4. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

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    You are right, the larger market will be the one DTG would want to cater to.
     
  5. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    As Ardaershir reminded me, we need to remember this is a business and DTG will follow the money, and if the US is the popular and most voted on then that's where they'd concentrate their efforts, sucks if you (like me) only play UK routes but tbf we've got more than our lions share of UK routes so far..

    So, solution? Just keep nagging DTG for core upgrades and existing content fixes and don't worry too much about route and loco suggestions, I'm not saying don't make any suggestions just don't pin your hopes on them and certainly don't worry about post content etiquette like some people are doing.
     
  6. Ardaeshir

    Ardaeshir Well-Known Member

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    I think UK routes are still at least as popular as US ones. The UK has a wider appeal for foreign hobbyists that goes beyond the UK. (perhaps we should blame Thomas the Tank engine and Postman Pat for it? ;) )

    Heck, I play pretty much exclusively British 50s-70s trains and routes in Ts2020.
     
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  7. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

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    I agree that core updates and general fixes should be something to focus on in the future as the game can, at times, feel kinda broken. suggestions are certainly a good way of letting DTG know that the community wants their products to be better or a wider variety.
     
  8. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

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    I wonder if i should set up some polls to see what happens? I understand your concerns, but I think it would be beneficial to test the idea and see what happens. It might offer some new data on what people really want from each geographical region in terms of routes and locos?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
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  9. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    Okay, but you are talking about it from your own perspective. And to have 100 redundant posts flooding the forum about one route/loco, instead of just simply voicing their agreement with just one post, makes no sense. As this forum becomes nothing more than an echo chamber than it more than like already is.

    Honestly, this thread sadly, and shamefully has gotten more traction than most of the proposals I'm talking about. But, I guess we'll shall see how far these wish-upon-a-star posts will go.
     
  10. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that system has already been around for a good number of years. It's a hit and miss with this company.
     
  11. Ardaeshir

    Ardaeshir Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to speak from the perspective of a game company (or really any business that creates products for individual consumers).

    Why wouln't it make sense?

    As the business owner, it is not so much an "echo chamber", rather than something like a poll. If 1000x users say they want Swanage and 2x users say they want Swindon, then the popularity poll in this hypotethical example clearly points to a Swanage route as being the product with better perspectives.

    The amount of words and effort one puts into describing a route that person X wants does not necessarily mean that person X is willing or able to spend more money on a route than someone who just posted a one-liner.

    Smart developpers listen to their fanbase, especially if the information is available for free.

    I know a simulator game designer that once ever year or so sends out poll links through steam to owners of their game (the game initially launched to a wave of negative user reviews btw). In that poll the designers ask users what features they would like to see, what they like so far, what they do not like and what sort of new map/dlc they would want. Often it is a list of 12 or so different map ideas that the devs say they can realistically make and then the users vote in this poll. The results are then made public after a month or so.

    So far, that company really stuck to their guns and if people said they want a South American map, that's what they got as a dlc down the road. The rating for the game and for the dlcs immensly improved once this process was adopted.

    I think DTG might look into this sort of model to use in communication with its users.
     
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  12. mattanatior97

    mattanatior97 Member

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    The reason I'm routes are dieing is because thiers already alot if them I think thier adding more us stuff because of that
     
  13. NEC Railfan

    NEC Railfan Well-Known Member

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    I personally think a "democracy" sort of system would be very beneficial in terms of sales.And yes, whilst there aren't as many UK routes being produced, I still can't tell between the plethora of London-based routes, or it could just be my lack of knowledge of the UK rail system.

    But be it 100 1-liners, or 1 100-liner, if the idea is given attention to by the community, it should be something to consider.
     
  14. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    Then it doesn't matter if it is a one liner or one hundred liner, that's democracy, TBH, I think it undemocratic to censure those who post one liners.
     
  15. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    So, I'm curious then, is this post I made a while back unacceptable to the "proposal purists" or not? https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/west-wales-route.22019/
    Hardly a one-liner but neither a nerdgasmic plethora of train geekism either, my question is where's the line drawn as to what is deemed post worthy or merely forum flotsam?
     
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  16. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    Welp, it's more of a request adding to what's already in-game. Doesn't really necessarily warrant much beyond what you stated there, but does more than many other proposals on asking for what isn't already there. And the header isn't generic. LOL. In my personal opinion, it gets a pass.
     
  17. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Democratic votes, essays, one-liners, it doesn't matter.

    What matters is demand. Pure and simple. The bottom line must come first.

    Demand can be engineered, but it takes time. Like farming interest.

    Honestly, if you want a specific route, build it yourself with the tools provided. That way it's guaranteed to happen and you are totally responsible for how awesome it turns out :)
     
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  18. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - no need to start an argument]
     
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  19. mike370

    mike370 Active Member

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    Dear rare_common_sense

    In case you're not aware, a long long time ago, a time before these DTG forums even existed - DTG had at the time initiated a pinned thread on the main STEAM forum (I know it might be hard for some to comprehend, that the vast majority of the active player base do not frequent this forum) entitled "Exploring new regions: What routes/countries do you want to see in TS?". That was started back in 2015. To date over 5,400 posts. Initially, for the first couple of years, some very detailed ideas/proposals were given -& a really diverse collection of suggestions. Some of them really are excellent, first class.

    The trouble is, I can't ever recall any feedback (whatsoever) by DTG. Nothing to give an indication of whether any such suggestions might be of interest, or what DTG might have in mind for future route development - either in the short-term or long-term. As a collective group, players have gone to great effort to provide all sorts of imaginative fresh route development ideas. But nothing in terms of communication given back. And for those on the STEAM board, I don't think anyone has been able to keep track of the thousands of proposals.

    I personally gave up on further such suggestions years ago. With the overall impression (rightly or wrongly) that DTG weren't really interested - in fact, not even sure whether they were even bothering to read the very STEAM thread they had started & pinned as important.

    So given that's the case, I throw it back to you, why would most normal people go to great length, time & effort to make an imaginative detailed route proposal when no feedback/communication is forthcoming from the developer. Perhaps to many, it feels like a waste of time?

    Encouragingly, DTG have recently upped their game with significantly improved communication regarding TSW1/TSW2 - & that is certainly to be welcomed. But I think it's fair to say the same the hasn't happened (yet) with TS20xx. TS1 seems largely forgotten, with the long established TS1 player community at times perhaps taken completely for granted. It's well into September, & as far as I'm aware, not yet even any mention of plans for TS2021.

    Anyway, just throwing out an alternative perspective - before you continue coming down (perhaps rather hard) on your fellow TS players. Most of us care passionately about the game, but perhaps many feel somewhat defeated when it comes to influencing the sim's direction of travel.
     
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  20. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    [edit by Protagonist - no need to start an argument]

    mike370 I am aware of that post. And then there was Engine-Driver, and now this. I've paid quite enough attention to this company and how they do things, mostly. However, my stance on this, regardless of how harsh you and others deem it (can't help you guys there), still remains mostly unchanged. I personally refuse to conform to defeatist attitudes. If people want to limit their own efforts, then they probably shouldn't expect much more of the company. This company does have to invest quite a bit of time and resources to get what is desired by those of the community into this game. This isn't something you ask for one day, and then expect it come overnight, obviously. No.. a proposal doesn't have to be crafted with a slew of info. But unless these "Can I have/I want/DTG should make [Desired Content]" really gains that much traction, which most of them don't, I don't see why DTG would invest that much into doing it especially when there's not much reason beyond just wanting it in-game, when very few, if any express their support behind it. DTG is still a business after all. Not a lap to sit on in a mall or department store.

    Not saying that I don't want to see people getting what they ask for.

    Not saying that the proposals even have to be expertly crafted.

    But if they really wanted to see what they desired in-game, and they have the means to get and give as much reasoning/information about it as they can, then why not. I find that does a pretty good job of getting people interested, even those who may not even be familiar with the content.

    It gets them talking, just like this post is doing.

    Last response to this.

    All civil dis/agreements, on the fence comments, before and after are appreciated.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2020
  21. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    I think my ultimate point is, pleading for routes is never going to cut it.

    Explain it away as much as you like.

    If you want it, build it.

    There will never be a standardisation of route requests.
     
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  22. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    [removed by Protagonist - no need to start an argument]
     
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  23. Cuddy_Man

    Cuddy_Man Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the OP. Most of the suggestions are very poorly developed, have no justification other than "I would like it" and get almost no engagement from the community.

    Some of the suggestions are such low quality that the suggester hasn't even checked they are on the right board.
     
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  24. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Has left the building Staff Member

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    So let's start by saying that this is a worthwhile debate and some interesting thoughts have been aired, however let's be clear - we welcome all requests and suggestions no matter how long or short they are.

    Going the extra mile with a route suggestion is definitely welcome but it's not a barrier to entry. Those suggestions that are more in depth have a greater likelihood or gathering support from those with greater knowledge and expertise but, again, it wouldn't stop a simple request gathering steam.

    As for how we go about selecting routes, your suggestions are most certainly factored into the decision-making process. Sometimes it is a suggestion that is the catalyst for further investigation, sometime the suggestion forms part of the argument for selecting route A over route B. The value of suggestions can be a little nebulous, particularly in situations where licensing is not possible, but we still want to give you an outlet to make these requests even if they are sometimes fruitless.

    Don't let this topic degenerate into "you're wrong because" please.
     
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  25. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    Any post is as justifiable as the next. Are you suggesting that proposals should reach a certain criteria, to be judged by who?
    As been mentioned before, some are written by children or those whose first language is not English or those with learning difficulties. Their views are as valid as the next are they not?

    Posting on the wrong board, always happens on a new release, newcomers to train sims often make that mistake. I started a thread suggesting that DTG make it easier to differentiate between TS2020 and TSW knowing that it was pointless but I tried.
     
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  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    What more justification do you need?
     
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  27. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Right on the money, as usual :)
     
  28. Cuddy_Man

    Cuddy_Man Well-Known Member

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    "Make it because I want it" is a very poor justification that at best tells DTG they might make one sale and at worst simply sounds selfish and entitled.

    Since the purpose of these suggestions is to influence DTG then I think a good suggestion should describe exactly what it is you are suggesting: distance, places, time period, liveries etc, a reason as to why it will be popular and sell, how it will compliment other products or how it will add to the franchises reputation. It would also be good if you signposted resources that would assist in its creation and which got the community excited (e.g. photos), so DTG could better judge how much real backing there was for it.

    If people only submit one line wish upon a star suggestions I think it becomes a waste of everyone's time.

    People can post what they like, but similarly people can complain about underdeveloped suggestions that do nothing except clog up the system. BTW, I don't think there's an army of children, foreign speakers of English and people with learning disabilities making these emaciated suggestions, and its a bit condescending to suggest these people are unable to submit well developed ideas, even if the spelling is wrong and the grammar's a bit wonky. I think the problem of poor suggestions is just an example of the general curse of the internet, which is people don't think enough about what they write.

    So come on folks, you'll have some great ideas, just work them a bit and you'll have a better chance of seeing them on Steam.
     
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  29. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    I know I basically stated I wasn't going to carry this further. But Cuddy_Man ... That bit you said there was pretty much train of thought and what I was alluding to this entire time. So thank you very much for stating that.

    Because there are people who are physically and mentally challenged that are able to do wonders, even more so than those who have are not. So that is why I say a lot of these claims, are, for the most part, excuses, respectfully. There are folks who have autism, that are capable of doing fascinating things, even better than most who aren't autistic. So that is why I posted this in the first place. My honesty is maybe a bit straightforward, but it was very well-meaning. Because we want to help people to learn to put a little extra effort into things they wanna see come to fruition. If people are as passionate as they claim to be, it should at the very least show in their effort for these proposals.

    While I'm at it. Thank you DTG Protagonist for your input, and for also the editing/deleting of the unnecessary remark directed at me, as it added nothing to the topic, as well as my response it. Much Respect.
     
  30. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that the word condescending was brought up when this whole threads title and premise was and still remains exactly that.
     
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  31. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    "Make it because I like it" was the phrase I was referring too. If you are going to quote someone, please have the courtesy of being accurate. Like and want have very different connotations.

    The point I was making is that someone liking something is enough justification to request something without having to give chapter and verse as to why. When you become a moderator here you can change the rules to suit!
     
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  32. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    DTG Protagonist has said that they welcome all requests and suggestions no matter how long or short.
    That settles the point of this thread does it not?

    rare common sense, the great talents you mention of people with autism are those of autistic savant spectrum who represent 1 in 10 of those with autism. These talents are confined to four areas, maths, music, visual arts and memory. Writing detailed proposals for a train simulator is not one of these talents. I say this as someone who has first hand experience with autism.

    Cuddy Man. your quotes, "a waste of everyone's time." "suggestions that clog up the system"
    With respect, the thrust of your two posts here is that proposals should be of a standard that fits your criteria and you complain that they don't comply with those standards. Yet you accuse me of being condescending. Are you not being condescending to those who for whatever reason only post one line, the ones you call, "selfish and entitled".

    Apologies for the thread drift but we should all remember that not everyone has the same faculties, a point that I have made here a few times in the past.
     
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  33. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    Yes Cat, I am acutely aware you have a very close relative with autism. This was mentioned by you some years ago on then steam forums. This, I have not forgotten. However, there are individuals with different levels of autism as well. Some have it more severe than others. Must keep that in mind. I know of some, myself. So that is why I made that statement.
     
  34. Daytona

    Daytona Active Member

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    I disagree, but yes, many of the proposals are written by children.
     
  35. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    You are correct and I should have pointed out that autism is a broad spectrum and some with mild autism would be capable of writing detailed proposals.
     
  36. snapnfix

    snapnfix Member

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  37. michael hooley

    michael hooley Well-Known Member

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    When you think back some of the most successful attention seeking adverts and sayings are one liners.
     
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  38. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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  39. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

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    Ok, the 2 polls I set up are finished and voting is closed. These are a test to see if these kind of polls could be useful to the community and developers alike. I decided to only test the locomotive and rolling stock proposals for the first trial and only the US and UK proposals because to be honest, it was hard to find 10 recent proposals for German locos or Rest of the World locos. Any feedback from replies on these polls would be appreciated. Here are the polls if you would like to see the results:
    US Locomotive Proposals: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...nt-suggestions-us-loco-proposals-trial.26728/
    UK Locomotive Proposals: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...nt-suggestions-uk-loco-proposals-trial.26727/
     
  40. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    One assumes that the DtG staff that have a poke around here actually do not scan the contents properly or are not able to discern the wheat from the chaff? It may be the case that the staff has limited time to scan such requests then I'd say the OP has a valid point but if not?

    It would be interesting however to research the average age of users "playing" TS?
     
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  41. josh.ostrowski03

    josh.ostrowski03 Active Member

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    Hmm, that sounds interesting, not sure if it would be useful information but it would be good to know.
     
  42. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    The age demographic of TS users would be useful to DTG for market research, as well as other customer profiling indicators.
     
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