It seems like there is a broken PZB magnet on RRO when arriving into Wuppertal from Hagen. Watching Natalie & Matt's stream this morning, Matt got hit with the same magnet and was perplexed on what caused it He passes a green signal with a 90 speed sign (which does not need to be aknowledged) and wasn't currently under pzb monitoring (which some ppl in the chat thought it was) For reference it happens at timestamp 50:50 Anyone have any thoughts on this one or is it a known bug? I often get hit with a penalty stop on that same section...I figured it was me doing something wrong, but when the professor got it as well, it has got me thinking
update : Looks like its user error on my part. I checked the manual for RRO and it clearly states: When to Acknowledge On passing Expect Reduced Speed, Expect Stop or any speed reduction warning below 100 km/h. For some reason I thought it was 80 and below. This explains why Matt got hit with the emergency stop as he didn't ACK the 90 sign at the signal
There is some debate happening right now about whether or not it is 90 and below, or 80 and below. DTG apparently received feedback from some people claiming that you do not need to acknowledge 90 and above, which is why nothing happens when you acknowledge a 90KM/H reduction on the new Muenchen route, but you get a 1000Hz magnet on the older routes. To be honest, I do not know which is correct in real life, and apparently neither does DTG anymore, but hopefully it will be sorted soon.
Does this mean that if Matt would have acknowledged it in the above video then the magnet wouldn't have triggered?
After researching this subject, the 1000Hz magnet should activate in any of the following situations when the PZB safety system is active: Distant signal shows "Expect stop" aspect Distant signal shows "Expect clear with medium speed" aspect There is an upcoming speed reduction First, note there is no exception for what speed the reduction is. However, what does "when PZB is active" mean? Well, in Germany it is required for shared (freight and passenger) lines up to 90 kph, and in some cases for lines up to 100 kph. This is where things are confusing, since PZB is somewhat of a Schrödinger's cat between 91 kph and 100 kph, unless it is specifically defined somewhere. Like a manual for the route. On HMA, it may be that PZB is not active at line speeds over 90, which is why you don't need to acknowledge a speed reduction to 90. However, on RRO it is active at speeds up to 100 kph, as outlined in the PZB Quick Reference section of the Rhein-Ruhr Osten manual. Source Text: From the definition of INDUSI at http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/tcrp/tcrp_rrd_47.pdf, page 36 So, after all of this: Matt was on a 100kph line, so PZB is active. He then came across a speed reduction to 90. Therefore, the 1000Hz magnet was active and he was stopped appropriately for failing to acknowledge the restriction.
Thanks everyone for the replies. I think it was the discussion from the HMA PZB thread which caused me to think it was under 90km/h before the magnet was active....but obviously there is a discrepency between routes on how it behaves (which is unfortunate). Hopefully DTG can sort it out so it is the same across the board
If you run that service, you will notice that at the next main signal you get a speed limit of 50 km/h! And that is why Matt would have had to press the Acknowledge-button, regardless of whether 90 is checked or not - it is not PZB that is broken, but the aspect the signal is showing. It should be showing the upcoming speed limit, which it doesn't! Same happens again at the very end of the stream when leaving with the 185. And in general, just press the Acknowledge-button for everything below 100 and you're safe There seems to be a systematic issue with how the signaler works, this is happening on multiple routes and for multiple signals, so I don't think it's a hick-up with a particular signal or spot on the route.
Well, the issue is that it may not be the same between routes in real life! I cannot find anything documenting the maximum speed of PZB per line, but it might be that the Munich line doesn't have PZB over 90 in the real world, so that is what they built.
The magnet would be triggered regardless, but the Zwangsbremsung (emergency brake) penalty would activate if not acknowledged. If Matt had pressed PZB Acknowledge, the 1000Hz warning would have lit up on his dashboard and the penalty would not trigger.
Because of how the system works IRL (and how it should work in the game) this is not mandatory but this is a sort of best practice Theory: source: http://www.sh1.org IRL possible conditions for the magnet to be active: Conclusion: the surprised face of Matt (who probably knows all this... and much more) is the answer PS I confirm everything <100 and all non-clear (NON-GREEN) signals. I am quoting delucadomenico2009 because, to my knowledge, he drives trains as a driver BR o7
With my experience so far in the game, I even start to acknowledge green signals because it has happened too often that there seemed to be nothing to acknowledge (like Matt experiences twice in one stream) but there actually was
In TSW2, just like in real life, sometimes things go wrong. In my opinion, "sometimes" in the case of signaling and PZB / LZB (TSW2) means less than 5% of cases. Or even less... (probably well below 1%). I guess a little. HMA e.g. is very complex - the gentlemen try to catalog it: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/signal-errors-on-hma.29512/ https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/problems-with-signals-pzb.29338/ Superb job. I wish it was perfect! And it's always an excuse for a nice chat UPDATE ... in Back to the Future style! Yes. Now I remember who showed it to me! BR, Lamplight o7 That was your absolutely amazing info that day
Glad to see this site finally getting spread on the forums. Not really that difficult to understand what needs to be ackknowledged once you know about all the track-side equipment and understand PZB‘s reasoning.
I totally agree, can't all be perfect And I don't expect the same level as in real life, where that would be something of "in 1 billion hours of operation one error" or something like that But the aspiration would be getting there, maybe not right away, that's fair I think, but errors are reported, so it would be nice to see them fixed I think Especially in that case where it seems systematic
I'm not sure if this is related to pzb (if not, then my apologies for posting it here), but I was just watching Matt and he got some kind of alarm that made him loose his traction, which was resolved by him standing up and then entering the drivers seat again. What exactly happened there? It's at 1m40s:
As i said in the other thread, some signal works as a protection, this is the case. The train cooming from a 120kmh section to a 90kmh section to approach the station and the switches area. I have never find a problem here on the route, just acknowledge it and activate the brakes. The easy rule is: acknowledge every from 1 to 7. 8 and 9 works as protection and if you are running just 10/15kmh more the pzb will not activate (like the RSN) but to be sure just acknowledge and starts to brake a bit as soon as you see the orange signal (or the flashing green). As i always say the pzb system have a lot of grey area and needs a lot of practice. But just to be sure 10 or below and you are safe in every cases.
This is the Sifa, that has a bug on the 422 and 425, which can be fixed by leaving the driver seat and sitting back down the bug is that you press the Sifa button but the system does not acknowledge it
Ah okay, thanks. Is it the thing where you basically have to re-enter the seat once after turning it on and if you don't then the bug will occur at some point during your ride?
Yes Without it, SIFA does not work on some trains. Pressing [Q] does not confirm. This is a symptom if you do not have the appropriate message on the screen.
Thanks so much for the info! I've only been driving Bakerloo so far, going to take my first step with the Germans tonight. Only going to turn on Sifa at first since that one seems straight forward enough. I just have to make a habit out of re-seating after enabling it and then hopefully that bug will never be an issue for me.
PZB can be messy to understand sometimes. The general memo rule I use myself is (as explained above also): - Distant signal (the one with diagonal lights) containing yellow (either 2 yellows or 1 green and 1 yellow): acknowledge, as it indicates speed restriction in the next block or a stop announcement. - Distant repeater signal (the one with diagonal lights and a white light): not acknowledge. But If signal displays yellow and comes with a magnet then you need to acknowledge it, even if it´s a repeater, as you have a stop ahead. You can find this type at the entry of Finnentrop depot, for instance. - Speed restrictions announcements lower than 100, either in boards or in signals (yellow color): acknowlege. They usually have magnets if speed reduction is significant. Eg: in an area with an active 80km/h limit an additional 70 limit whould most likely not have a magnet. - Flashing green signals: not acknowledge, unless accompanied by speed board announcement lower than 100 (yellow color) - Red + white signals (except dwarfs): not acknowledge, but PZB override needs to be pressed - Additionally: 45km/h speed restriction is always active upon start or after PZB emergency brake application, until released automatically or after pressing PZB release. "Lower than 100" means that a 100 will not require acknowledge but a 90, which is the next typical lower limit you may find yes. Cheers
You need to acknowledge speed restrictions below 80 (not including 80). Speed restrictions between 80 and 100 (including both) only have to be acknowledged if you‘re faster than 15 above the new speed limit. More information can be found in my signature.
I can confirm that it does work that way on RSN, MSB, HRR and RRO. I haven't played enough Rapid Transit and don't own HMA/MAG. But on the ones I listed this is modelled correctly including the emergency brake application due to 2000 Hz magnets for restrictions between 100-160 (this I only tested on HRR though).
I'll have to give MSB another run, then. I have not touched it since TSW2020, but I distinctly remember that route requiring 90KM/H acknowledgement even when I was running at 100KM/H. EDIT: Just checked going northbound to Heigenbrücken, and it followed the PZB rules as it should. Glad to be wrong! I do still think that it is broken on HMA, where it won't activate a 1000Hz magnet for a 90km/h restricting, regardless of the speed of the train. I will double-check that when I find some more time.
Hi everyone, this *is* a bug. 8 and 9 need to be acknowledged if Vist > 115%Vmax. This was not the case. No reason for Zwangsbremsung there. Cheers, Prof.
2.12.3.2.3.7 Overview of arming the PZB magnets The PZB magnets are armed in the following circumstances: 1000 Hz (Vigilance button pressed): • Notification of a maximum speed of 70 km/h or less • Notification of 80 km/h and the train passes at a speed of 95 km/h or more • Notification of 90 km/h and the train passes at a speed of 105 km/h or more • Distant signal on its own • Level crossing monitor signal indicates defective crossing 500 Hz (driving under the monitoring speed limit): • Main signal shows stop aspect or maximum speed less than 40 km/h • Restriction of the line speed to less than 40 km/h • Safeguarding entrance to a station when driving on the opposite track 2000 Hz (immediate application of emergency brake): • Main signal shows stop aspect • Speed monitoring section driven too fast over • Ne 1 board on the opposite track source BR
