Pretty frequently throughout the community, I have seen mentions of driving without HUD and relying on the instruments and route signals, speed signs, etc. Even though I have a combination of over 300 hours in both TSW and TSW2, this is an aspect of the game I have never explored. But I am interested in exploring this idea with people who might prefer this kind of driving. The game to me frankly seems not ready for such immersion. Many speed changes are missing signs informing about them, you don't have a list of stations that would normally be present in the loco (e.g. EBULA), no way of telling the proper position of the stop marker in many cases, stop times, etc. There are definitely aspects that can be learned from manuals etc, but sometimes there is no way to read the situation without the HUD (e.g. on Peninsula Corridor the speed drops to 10 MPH just before the San Francisco terminus and it is nowhere to be found). I have however gone for it and tried myself. Nothing too brave, just a TGV run to Marseille without stopping at Aix (TGV 6175 - it was also a service suggested by the community to have an interesting overtake of another TGV). The TVM keeps an eye on your speed all the time, the approach to Marseille is relatively easy and you can nicely see all the panels in one view. It is probably the easiest example to try it at, you do not have to care about route knowledge too much (apart from the speed drops in Marseille at each signal portal), stopping time (only one stop at the end) and stopping precision (you pull all the way to the end fo the platform at St. Charles. There is definitely something to this kind of playing and it bumps the immersion up a couple of points, you focus a lot more on the gradients as you can't see the indicator, just the route changes. You have to check a lot more dials, the super-tiny speed selector on TGV being one of the funnier ones. Overall I'd say driving completely without the HUD can be a cool new challenge, but there needs to be some sort of improvement in order to facilitate this - speed signs have to be more reliable, some sort of schedule board should be implemented to passenger trains and to be perfectly honest the points for stopping accuracy should probably be based solely on how much of the train you've correctly put to the platform/specific track (if one car out of 5 is not at the platform, you get 400/500 for stopping accuracy). One other thing worth mentioning is that the TGV is an exceptionally well-layered cab - everything is visible and you can focus purely on driving. Driving different vehicles without HUD might become extremely irritating purely because you constantly have to move your mouse to see dials/lever positions. This will be helped a lot with the introduction of TrackIR, but for people, without this hardware, it might become a bit difficult. That's probably it for my thoughts and experience from this experiment. I would be very interested in someone here with more HUDless experience sharing their views, tips, tricks, etc. and maybe... one day... it would be an interesting thing to see on stream.
I just drive with the next speed limit announcement in the HUD mainly to avoid those problems of missing speed announcements. It gives you and idea of the speed changes as some drivers would have in a notebook and it´s still quite realistic. I sometimes put the HUD when I´m not sure about a speed limit or to be sure that I released one of the slowest limits. Otherwise I count train lenght by time or by catenary poles. Cheers
Monder, you summed it up perfectly. I had similar dilemmas and concluded the game looks better without the HUD and I like to sacrifice some driving precision for immersion. Big topic. A bit of a matter of taste as well. Full agreement The trick: turn on Objective Marker and turn off the HUD. Everything will disappear but that blue marker will remain on the tracks (and you already know where to stop without HUD).
You think that train drivers just get in the train and drive? They don't, they have to learn the route, where the speed limits are, station stops, stopping points even things like where the bridges are that can be used as evacuation points in an emergency. So the answer would be to explore with the HUD on and take notes of things like speed limits, divergences and their limits, station stops, stop points (and therefore platform entry speeds) and so on, then do the driving without the HUD but with the notes Then make your notes briefer and briefer as your memory of the route improves until you don't need the notes any more.
I always drive without any HUD at all, I much prefer the sense of realism, when you pull into Leeds after 1 hour and 20 minutes over the Pennines without busting any speed limits or missing any stops it does give you a sense of satisfaction. How do I do it? I have a pile of paper next to my PC that contains maps and diagrams for all the routes I drive. For modern British routes you can use the official section appendices, e.g. https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/sehs-sectional-appendices.34957/. For German routes I use the enthusiast produced Buchfahrplans you can find over at Rail-sim-de: https://rail-sim.de/forum/filebase/entry/6198-buchfahrplan-db2600-db2622-sfs-koeln-aachen-101-tsw2/. Sometimes, like with Pen Corridor I produce my own guide on sped limits and stops based on the in game mileposts: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/peninsula-corridor-no-hud.34575/. I have the 10 MPH limit listed For NTP and TVL I printed route maps I found by Googling and annotated them in pencil with the approximate mileposts of the stations and speed limits. I find that by using the above methods I can reliably get from one end to the other without ever needing to look at the HUD. Some might try and take it further and do it totally by memory. However my excuse is that a real train driver only drives over a limited set of routes, in TSW you could be doing Manchester - Leeds one day, then Koln to Aachen the next, then San Francisco - San Jose etc. I think some allowances have to be made
I do not think they do that. I know they need route knowledge, but right now there are over 20 routes in the game from 5 different countries with multiple different signal and safety systems. Also, there's probably some difference between working on a route 48 hours a week and spending three evenings a week on a mixture of routes. Route knowledge is definitely a way, but it still doesn't save the missing speed limits and weird stopping points. You would know a speed reduction is there, but still have the sign and often also a warning a good distance ahead.
I've started driving this way as well, at least sometimes. Route learning definitely helps, but i too am frustrated by the occasional missing speed sign. The method I use to augment a route is simple and here is an example: Faversham:15:60:75:S1:W1:S2:W2:S3:S4:85:S5:S6:90:W3:!:S7 Teynham: 90:S1:W1:S2:85:S3:90:S4:S5:!:S6 Where numbers are speeds, S = signals, W = whistle boards, and ! = the platform. I take the time to do one run at relatively slow speed noting down what I find, then the rest of the runs are hudless. A quick glance down and I can see what's coming up. I too find having to scroll down and up to be quite annoying, and one disadvantage to the HUD being completely off is that I can't see what notch the throttle/brake are in but can sometimes gauge it by the speed changes I'm observing. Other times I'll drive with just the Ctrl-5 HUD on. Upcoming signals and speeds are almost always turned off for me now. BTW, I used to also add the stopping point in a platform (i.e. 4-8, S, etc) but realized it must be different train by train. I've also drifted away from caring about medals and AP, so i stop where i think the train should stop and just don't worry about it. To each their own, though.
On some routes I prefer to go completely Hudless, on some other I prefer to be more relaxed and just use the minimalist HUD for station stops and next speed limit for speed, however for some routes I want to play Hudless I made some maps that can aid route learning. I made one for ECW, SEHS, RSN and RT. If it could be useful to someone I will share the RSN and SEHS one since they are the best (or least worse) and hopefully it could aid a little some route learning. RSN SEHS The others are too personalized for me and where I struggled and would serve no purpose being public. Notice how these are in no way definitive or complete and I used them just to start, as I do more and more services I remember the route in my head and almost never use these. The biggest nuance without the HUD is that you always have to keep in mind at what position you left the brakes or throttle and reading tiny speedometers like in the DoSto cab car... I would recommend creating yourself some kind of maps of the route with speed limits and stations, it will aid memorizing everything a lot. I also use the objective marker (Ctrl+1) option to check the stopping point as soon as I enter a station if it's not indicated by a physical marker on the platform (no way I can remember all of them across all routes).
I usually drive with only the next destination and next speed limit display on the upper corners. For reading my speed, I prefer the instruments in the cab. As you mentioned, upcoming speed limit changes are often not marked, so it's good to have the next speed limit displayed on the upper right corner. For the current speed limit, just remember what it changed to last time. For signals, you can clearly see them alongside the tracks. And as for knowing where to stop, the next destionation dispaly showing the distance is enough, having the objective marker floating on the screen in front of my face all the time is annoying. So if you try to prefer as HUDless as possible, I say turn everything off but the next destination display and next speed limit display on the upper corners (not the ones that float on the screen showing their 3D location).
I just have the upper-right information next task/stop w. distance) toggled active and settled with that. For stuff I'm totally unfamiliar with (US or learning Arosa) I keep the next signal and speed limit indicators on for some rides Edit: Driving without HUD (F1) was difficult because I couldn't estimate how much is applied to throttles and levers, gets better when I receive my Raildriver
Superb tip, thanks! I've been driving SKA today and would have found that helpful. Now printed out ready for next weekend
For me it depends on the route, i can Drive from Finnentrop to Hagen (Not the other way around) completely without the HUD, because you can set the Speed on the 143, so you wont go faster than you want to. You can see the selected speed on the speedometer, so you know how fast the train will go. Also all Speed signs are there where they should be, and you are going relatively slow, so its not that easy to miss a sign or signal. I also turn the HUD for parts of the route i either know very well or there is no need to have a HUD because you're under LZB control and have AFB on. Pressing Q every now and then should be possible without help.
You make your notes based on the HUD and then don't have to rely on the speed boards at all, any more than IRL drivers do. The signs are pretty much irrelevant if you're having to start slowing down half a mile before you can even see the board
Well, that's why as least on German and most of the UK routes you have a warning sign displaying to what speed you will have to go in a good distance ahead (depending on the current track speed). You should know the speed is there, but the signs should tell you anyway.
I think you're missing the point. If you want to drive HUDless then you're reliant on route knowledge and that means knowing the route you're driving (as in in-game) rather than real life
Realism, level of difficulty. But also aesthetics. A custom HUD, very minimalistic, would be a good compromise. For me, the problem is speed control, throttle position. Laptop, 15-inch display - there is no honey for Winnie.
German routes, yes. British routes? Morpeth boards are only placed in advance of "significant" speed reductions- and not all of those to date.
I started doing HUDless runs in the Javelin on SEHS a couple of months ago. Driving other trains like American or German trains/locos then, I still have the HUD switched on every now and then to check distance, speed and station stops.
I don't see how one could do NTP or TVL HUDless; the speedboards are nearly (or wholly) invisible, there are no Morpeth boards at all, almost no AWS installed, and in most places only 3-aspect signaling. In real life, of course, future drivers rode those routes as secondman a million times until they had memorized every blade of grass.
You have to count mileposts or ideally be set up such that you can read the passing mileposts (a lot easier if the sun is behind you) then no speed limit should be a surprise, the sign is just a marker for the exact position. Three aspect signalling is not a problem, just as in real life the line speed and signal distances should be consistent with being able to stop in time. The biggest problem is that NTP has been modelled at a time when the lines signalling was mid modernisation, so you go from absolute block semaphores to more modern 3/4 aspect in quite a few places. This would be fine except that unfortunately in a few places the implementation of the transitions isn't correct, so you can get reds with no warning at all: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/broken-signals-on-ntp.33085/. Not so much of a problem in the fairly sparse timetable mode but if you start making your own scenarios with lots of traffic it can get frustrating.
Drive the route as a scouting exercise taking down the locations of speed changes marked on the HUD (which in theory should correspond to the location of a speed board or sign, but not always) Work out for each speed change the approximate braking point and force required (adjusting for inclines) Scout the route again and find a marker or indication that makes the point in 2. above obvious - something like "4th signal after x station" or "oddly inclined bridge between x and y stations" When you reach that point on a normal drive apply the brakes and then adjust as you approach the actual speed point so that you don't over or under brake, and remember to still allow for inclines after the speed change (so apply power or feather brakes) And if you want to be fully prepared, make sure you know the changes for divergences so if you are diverted or have various branches you're also prepared
I’ve tried driving HUDless on the routes I know well but I find it hard to see the speed I’m doing from the real dials on some trains and the biggest problem is knowing what I’ve input on the brakes and throttle. Learning the route is the least of my worries. Without the feedback from the notifications coming up on the right or seeing the main HUD dials it’s very difficult to tell how much I have moved a simulated lever with PS4 controller or keyboard. The other thing is what stations I’m stopping at on runs that don’t stop at them all. Whenever I disable all or part of the HUD, I find myself turning it back on to check these things far too often, which becomes a chore in itself. For these reasons, I generally drive with full HUD all the time to avoid having extra stuff to worry about when trying to enjoy myself. I have thought about making copious notes for routes but I would find doing that tedious and then I would spend more time looking at them and less looking at the screen, and as I rely on the HUD for the other things I mentioned it seems a bit pointless anyway. I try to drive ‘properly’ and to the rules (like driving to differential speed limits and signal speed limits not shown in the HUD) most of the time but also try to make it seem less like a real job and more like a hobby for enjoyment. The HUD wins for that just with the feedback for controls but also with route info as it happens. I am trying to rely less on the distance counter when braking for stations on some routes though, just using memory for braking points and judging the speed as I’m slowing to a stop rather than watching the distance count down. That’s a good challenge which is currently resulting in many station overruns.
There are also UI designs that make HUDless driving difficult, such as having to watch the boarding timer circle animation in top-left to know when to begin closing the doors.
I drive a route back and forth 2-3 times and then I usually already know the route by heart and I know the difficult parts After that I always drive without a HUD
I have played the game without the HUD for years now, using cab ride videos online and a notepad on my phone. It honestly feels like a different game. Applying route knowledge effectively can be extremely satisfying, to the point where I don't understand how people can have fun using the HUD, as it feels more like an analytics simulator than driving a real-life train. For beginners, I would recommend starting with anything German if you understand the signalling system (which is very simple), as you get a warning for everything, and route knowledge is not needed, apart from station locations. If you drive the ICE 3 Munich - Augsburg non-stop, for example, you get a chance to drive without the HUD, without the need for any route knowledge at all.
Monder you inspired me to give it a go, I left the next stop, next signal and next speed limit up but killed the main HUD. The only thing from that I actually miss is the gradient indicator. Apart from that it was smooth running. The performance chart showed my drifting around the speed limit so using the train's speedo might not be as accurate as the HUD speedo. Still got a gold medal though . I think I'll try driving this way from now on. It gives me another corner to stick the raildriver camera on my streams .
Driving HUD-less is great fun but it’s not just as simple as having good route knowledge. Due to the fact you are not actually in the cab and looking at a screen it can be extremely hard to see gauges in the cab as you can’t focus your eyes. You also can’t quickly look down with your eyes to check the speedometer regularly as you have to move the whole screen to look down on most trains. The trains with big speedometers like the German Electric units or the Class 377 are the easiest for me but on most other trains you really have to strain your eyes if you don’t want to zoom in and out every time, taking your eyes off of the track as you do. I’ve always driven with just the speedometer and the next station distance in the top left. Another option to just have your speed in a discrete box in the corner would be nice so you don’t have to strain your eyes
This is the trouble. It is not always possible to have everything you need in front of your eyes. For me, a minimalist preview of the position of the throttle, brakes (PSI / BAR), speedometer. This would not make the game easier, because all this information is available in the cockpit anyway, but without even track-IR are difficult to access.
So in the end we need some sleek minimalistic with just the most necessary information: -next objective -next speed -current speed -brake/throttle levers percentage -safety systems I would imagine small circular dials in the corner... something like this example graphic. From top to bottom: next objective in Marseille in 45km next speed change to 320 in 3km current speed 173 km/h (maybe you could have 173/300 to show the current speed limit too, though that might make it too easy) 100 % throttle set 0 % train brake set (dynamic could be negative power, the locomotive is rare enough to not be here) safety system warning (this one could be removed, you always hear it before it punishes you and PZB has you focus on the track one way or another... probably could be replaced with gradient now that I think about it) Takes a lot less space and is there just to help you get slightly around all the route knowledge and things you're not able to easily see (levers) or feel (incline).
Next objective - don't need to know where if it's a brief form. The circle is too small for it to be legible for some so a simple big number would probably be better Next speed change - not required on the unit in question (as it always tells you when the speed is changing and then what to) but in other units may be a good thing. Would suggest colours. Green for higher speeds, yellow for minor downward speed changes (within 10% of line speed), orange for major speed changes) Current speed - too small to be legible. Not sure why it would need to be pointed out whether in Km/h or mph and this does make the text "cramped" Brake - Personally I would have this as the train brake in one colour and the loco brake in another colour. Hard one to get right I guess. Agreed dynamic brake would be negative power, but again I would do that with colours to make it obvious Safety warning - if you're going to have something then have it where you have it Gradient - I would have a separate circle which replicates what they have now. It's concise and clean
Exactly. Now the speedometer contains information not available from the cockpit level, which kills the realism a bit and spoils the aesthetics. The topic of UI changes has already been raised several times - unfortunately - each time with the same effect - less urgent. I understand. Priorities. But who will stop us from dreaming? The interface should be fully customizable.
I don't know any software that offers complete customization, but some form of reduction could be implemented, but as stated it's hardly that important.
Agreed on basically all of it. The one I've made was just to make a point about minimalistic HUD for a "pseudoHUDless" driving. -Regarding the objective maybe it could just show distance to it and based on the briefing you should know WHAT it is. Though this might be unreliable when passenger services have "go via" instructions. -Even on TGV once you get to the DC line, TVM is gone, you have to know the upcoming speeds. -Units can probably be eliminated, but routes like SEHS could become a bit of a mess with the unit change. -I really think the safety system one might be eliminated as you can do safety systems fine without looking at HUD. Nearly all of them beep, maybe one circle could appear for PZB/LZB, but even that can be handled if you know the specific safety system.
To me modding and customization are different. If you cannot change colour, font, size and location without reprogramming then to me that's not "fully custom"
Size, position, shape - for me would be enough, in TSW too. Plus - everything could be turned ON / OFF at any time. I like to see 'legit' indicated data in a minimalistic manner PS The thing is, the game looks nice as nothing is blocking your view. Camera directed at the window. This type of concept, I suppose.
The thing is, in real life you don't spend all your time looking at the window and would HAVE to check gauges, control positions etc so it's actually making it LESS realistic. When I'm driving my car I have to look at gauges, mirrors, speedos etc so any HUD is essentially removal from RL
In real life U can move your head or eyes PS In TSW, it is impossible to control both the instruments and the landscape from any camera perspective ... Which is unrealistic!
It seems to me that the existing app, with only the bottom right HUD on and the others (next speed, next signal, objective etc) turned off, is pretty much as described above, if rather large: speed, throttle position, brake gauges, safety systems as applicable. In other words, what is available in-cab to a RL driver, but nothing else. (There are also the inclinometer and accelerometer, but they reflect, again, what a RL driver has available to him, a sense of g-forces which the game by its nature can't convey)
Actual speed limit - available in some locos only (LZB). This is just an example - this BIG something color-full HUD-like is meh meh Something like bottom right but with speed indication would be superb.
wdym by train length? what I mean is what is the information for and how do you determine it by counting poles
Since you can only increase speed after the back of the train has passed the sign, without a HUD you need some way to know when the back end of the train has passed it. (You know how long the train is; it's in the pause menu). A few trains like the Class 66 have a functioning Train Length button, but sadly it isn't modeled on trains like the GP38-2 (the button is there, but does nothing). Without that, then you have to reference some fixed reference that has measured or constant intervals, like mileposts or telephone/catenary poles.
Essentially yes. Because the speed limit applies to the whole track up to the front of the sign, any part of the train yet to pass the sign has to obey the previous limit, so if moving from a 50 to a 60, until the very end of the train has passed the sign the whole consist has to move at 50. So knowing when the end of the train has passed, or having some form of reference of it, is beneficial so you know when to apply power to start bringing the speed up towards the new limit
I'd like if this interface was modular and customizable, I would still end up hiding if it showed the next distance to the objective, as it's not the same as driving by just memorizing braking points and such, same for current and next speed limit, I would only like to have the brake and throttle percentage (or notch). Also something that tiny doesn't solve the minuscule speedometers problems, like the DoSto cab car, the size and font used on the current HUD is fine. Also what brake you have selected would be useful as well, I'm going back to driving german trains and switching between using the various brakes (dynamic for speed changes, train for stops and loco brakes for holding the train) is a not that easy but I'm getting there even without the HUD, but a keyboard is 100% required.
