Route Proposal: Altamont Pass ( Ace & Union Pacific) Stockton - San Jose

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Blacknred81, Jul 22, 2021.

  1. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    So this is kind of a follow up proposal for my East Bay Area proposal, as a 3rd route that would benefit that route as well as the Peninsula Corridor Route.
    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...-to-san-jose-amtrak-union-pacific-bart.26696/
    [​IMG]

    The route I'm proposing is the Altamont Pass, featuring the Altamont Corridor Express Trains and Union Pacific. The route would be about 85 miles and would cover the area between Stockton, and San Jose. The route would feature the East Bay area, Niles Canyon, Altamont Pass, and the Central Valley
    [​IMG]


    Video from the back of a detouring Amtrak Coast Starlight train from Shinn over Altamont Pass to Lathrop.


    ACE Trains
    ACE has a total of 10 station stops on the route between Stockton and San Jose, the trains max speed for the line is 79mph, with an average speed of 39mph. Like most American Commuter trains, they run in push pull configuration, with the locos leading in Westbound trains, and the Cab Cars in Eastbound ones. Some trains only run with a single loco, while others can run with 2. During the mid day, ACE trains are stored south of San Jose past Caltrains Tamien Station. ACE also has a maintenance facility north of the Stockton Station.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Union Pacific
    For the most part, most of the UP stuff that would be included for this route would be local and switching duties in the Central Valley, as most of the East Bay stuff would be better left for the other route I suggested.

    Now Union Pacific lines in the valley are quite interesting, as they took over both the Western Pacific and Southern Pacific Lines in the area, which left them quite alot of trackage to use between Stockton and Tracy. Union Pacific also retains the old WP Yard and Shops in Stockton. A Domestic Intermodal facility also exists near Lathrop on the Ex-Western Pacific Line. The area would be prime for Local trains that service the area, and would be a primary focus for the route (Since mainline traffic over Altamont is quite scarce) However some run thru trains on Altamont Pass is possible.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
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    UP Intermodal Yard and Lathrop Wye
    (Fun Fact: The Shrape Army Depot was where the "Flying Scottsman" was hidden while it was stuck in the US back in the day)
    [​IMG]

    UP Stockton Yard
    [​IMG]


    Cons
    Now, there are a few minor issues with this route. 1 is the fact that ACE's timetable is very small, at most ACE runs only 4 trains a day in each direction. Morning trains run from Stockton to San Jose, while Afternoon trains run in the afternoon back to Stockton. This would leave a much smaller passenger timetable when compared to Caltrain's or Amtrak Capitol Corridor services. The other is whether or not DTG can get an ACE license, as they have a history of not being able to acquire them from NA commuter lines. Union Pacific's modern day traffic over the Altamont Pass is pretty light as well. (I cant find very many modern day photos of UP on the pass)

    One other thing to point out is the Stockton Diamond, located between the UP Stockton yard and the ACE Station in Stockton, as the line that UP crosses over here is BNSF, so that may pose a issue with the route as well. There is plans for a grade separation in the future however.....
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Rolling Stock

    ACE has used F40's since their creating in 1998, but recently started receiving new Charger locomotives from Siemens.

    F40PH-3C
    [​IMG]

    Siemens Charger
    [​IMG]

    ACE currently uses
    Bombardier bi-level VI cars and cab cars, but are supposed to receive newer IX cars sometime later this year.

    Union
    Pacific could be Geeps, either the GP40-2 or GP60

    EMD GP40-2
    [​IMG]

    EMD GP60
    [​IMG]

    Mainline power would be a reused AC4400CW as they
    wouldn't be the main focus here.

    Backdating
    One alternative for this line would be backdating it to the WP/SP era, as the Western Pacific did route their Passenger trains over this line, and the Sothern Pacific line was very close to the WP, so both could be featured on one route, but that's a suggestion for another time. (Since those routes would end in Oakland, not San Jose)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. csxfan#8403

    csxfan#8403 Active Member

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    I like this! And this will feed into Peninsula Corridor as well
     
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  3. jedi247

    jedi247 Well-Known Member

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    The SP/WP version would be a great choice. The route should be set in the mid to late 1960s.
    WP Loco ideas:
    -GE U30B
    -GP35, GP40/40-2, or GP20
    -F7/FP7 with California Zephyr passenger train

    SP Loco ideas:
    -SD40 or SD45
    -GP20, GP30, GP35, or GP7/9
    -E7A/B, E8A/B, or E9A/B in Daylight paint
    -F7/FP7
    -FM Trainmaster for commuter services on the Peninsula Corridor
     
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  4. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the SP ever ran Passenger services over Altamont, at least what I can tell...

    However, 1 unit that would be interesting for the route is the Krauss Maffei ML-4000, which actually did run on the pass...
    9011_at_enzen_Aug_64_-_Flickr_-_drewj1946.jpg

    Thanks to this train order gifted to the SP 9010 preservation crew, which showed that the 9010 did make a run on the pass in 1966.
    132247732_3627589437286800_7661355452903351175_n.jpg
     
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  5. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent idea and for the GP-40-2 on this route it will receive a reskin from Union Pacific into CSX Paint if DTG wanted a CSX GP-40-2 on Sand Patch Grade. F7 A Unit and B Unit base locomotive for it is CSX Clinchfield version into Western Pacific Union Pacific paint.
     
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  6. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Bumping this suggestion due to this post on Instagram...
    instagram.png
     
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  7. Mevans193

    Mevans193 Well-Known Member

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    This suggestion gets my vote, it’d be nice to have more US routes in the game that feature both freight and passenger.
     
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  8. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Are there any cab rides of the line?
     
  9. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    4 north, and 4 south services per day - is that going to be a compelling experience? I like the idea, and the scenery looks interesting and different... but... 8 services total per day with nothing to see in the other direction.

    Granted, at 2+ hours each, that's still 16+ hours in total but that's extremely light.

    Interested to hear peoples thoughts.

    Matt.
     
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  10. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn’t be that different to Cane Creek. That had some extra services running than it would have done in reality but it was still a very light timetable. As most timetables are just repetition of a pattern at different times of the day it doesn’t really make that much of a difference ;) . I suppose how interesting it would be depends on how much freight could be included in the timetable alongside the sparse passenger services.
     
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  11. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Are there any potential freight services or Amtrak etc? I can't honestly say it's the kind of thing that's likely to make me open my wallet if it's effectively the same two services repeated at four times of day.
     
  12. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    It technically has a lot more going for it than Cane Creek. I believe Cane Creek only has one train every two weeks in reality. In game it was made up with added services and more scenarios than usual. Also Oakville, that route also has a completely fictional, exaggerated freight timetable.

    This route technically doesn’t really need fictional services added, maybe It could be considered, but this route is something different than what we’ve had so far

    - Passenger route not in the northeast, so far we’ve only had Caltrain in that regard
    - F40PH with desktop controls :)
    - It’s a passenger route in the desert, first for TSW.
    - Union Pacific Locals (could just include the Sherman SD40-2 and some freight wagons in the pack)
    - I’m pretty sure there’s Amtrak on the line too, but I’m not entirely sure what the frequency of trains is.

    Caltrain could run as AI as well on this route, or technically can even run as playable services between San Jose and Santa Clara. Would technically need catenary though as Caltrain has already put it up in this area.

    Also who knows, maybe they might support a reference trip, seeing on social media they’re so enthusiastic about this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
  13. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Closest I could find is from 15 years ago and sped up. Not to mention the ride thru Niles Canyon is cut, and the Tracy Station is mislabeled.
     
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  14. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I think a Geep is more likely for local services than the SD40-2, they don't usually travel outside of Roseville these days in California. Most 6 axle power local power is now handled by SD59MXs, but those probably won't come to TSW.

    Also Union Pacific's can have freight layers from Sherman Hill, though most of the traffic will be between Stockton and the Lathrop wye, as most of it travels on UPs Fresno Sub to Southern California.

    Caltrain AI traffic would be interesting, as it would add their Tambien station since ACE trains are stored passed that station south of San Jose. (Most Caltrain trains terminate there nowadays.)

    Amtrak traffic on the line is mainly the Amtrak California Capital Corridor trains, but they split off at Niles towards Oakland.

    The Coast Starlight also runs on the line, but like Peninsula Corridor, it's only stop is San Jose, as Oakland is its only other closest stop.

    If the route were to come to TSW, ot would probably have to be a split Passenger Frieght route, with most of the mainline freight being layers from Sherman Hill, but also hopefully some decent local services as well in the bay area and the Stockton to Tracy area.
     
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  15. MLP Derick

    MLP Derick Well-Known Member

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    I have no issues with 8 trains a day it might not be the busiest timetable but I think the length of the route makes up for it plus most of the rolling stock they use is already in game they would just need changes done to them and I wouldn't want to say no to an operator who has interest in wanting to be represented in the game
     
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  16. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Wikipedia said ACE got 4 F40 and 4 Charger. Looking at ACE's timetable there was 4 service into San Jose in morning and 4 out of San Jose at night, I assume the night service was run by the same set that entered San Jose in morning.
    Two things can be considered: The availability of extra stock for fictional service and how to make these service reasonable to appear.
    First, it seems ACE like to double head their F40. This means 2 out of 4 service was run by the F40s. The other 2 was run by the Charger and that leaves 2 charger sitting in depot. Thus, you got 2 loco available to perform all kind of extra services.
    Second, the real life timetable means you cannot experience the route OUT OF San Jose in morning or INTO San Jose at night. 1 charger can be assigned to run such service so player got a chance to fully experience the route in both direction. The other charger, if ACE wish, can be used for rescuing a failed service and drag it back to depot, which DTG did back in SFJ's MP15 in timetable. ESC to and from station can also be added with various excuses/reasons.
    Some other stuff I can think of:
    A: A charger can be useful in future for development such as Amtrak's Charger, it also keeps player happy despite F40 appearing again, especially when the extra 2 charger can be used for unusual (fictional) services.
    B: It seems the route was not exclusive to ACE Rail---BNSF and UP can appear as AI and UP seems also make good use of this route in operation. UP's freight makes SFJ such an interesting route and, if done good, it will also make this route lively.
    C: Niddertalbahn was a success despite being 36km only. I think it shows TSW's player was not only interested by quantity (such as BML's timetable) but also quality. The horning AI used in NID can and should be implemented on this and other American Route that greatly improve immersion.
    D: Continuing on C, the point was that if the route was interesting enough, player can accept their disadvantage (distance for NID, timetable for ACE). Plus, the timetable issue are solvable if consider making use of fictional timetable and UP's freight services.
    E: Afterall, it was ACE asking to be in the game, no reason to let them down :P
    F: If still concern about the fictional service, think of CCB. Plus, if explained well and implemented well, player will likely to accept the extra services.
     
  17. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    PS: Competition in Train Sim Marker are getting heated up now, if this chance was missed, someone else might pick it up...
    And if it was done good and right, that should further improve TSW's image and might help with negotiating more Railway Company onboard.
     
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  18. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    More thought's on the UP Freight.
    This route's freight was mainly done by Geeps it seems. DTG can rebuild the GP38-2 and GP40-2 to TSW3 standard and sell a DLC that act similar as HFP to NTP. Not sure if the freight was heavy enough to justify a dlc, but user got 2 TSW3 standard loco in 1 bundle AND they can use these locos in SMH, sharing service as SD40-2. Hopefully DTG can control what service they spawn on though. SFJ can also be benefited with more Geeps.
    Plus think again, TSW3 no longer 'force' a loco dlc bundle with a route DLC, maybe the GP38-2 can also has some different livery to further justify such dlc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
  19. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    In addition to it being a passenger route in the west, it also has the plus that there’s some gradients along this route, which would be challenging in a commuter train.

    This route also isn’t just ACE, it’s Union Pacific too.

    this route could technically include the following

    New (maybe):
    - Siemens Charger

    Reworked:
    - ACE F40PH
    - ACE BiLevel Coaches
    - ACE BiLevel Cab Car
    - UP GP38-2
    - Various Sherman Hill Freight Wagons
    (Hopefully multiple liveries for the ACE coaches)

    I think this route has plenty of potential, there’s more ACE services than there is freight on Oakville east of Burlington in reality, or freight on Cane Creek, and it’s nice to see ACE is enthusiastic about this and wants to work with Dovetail. This would be a much needed change from all the northeast corridor stuff.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
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  20. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Fictional freight is quite different to fictional passenger timetable, and player feedback to date has been overwhelmingly real timetable or don't bother. Freight there is barely a timetable if at all so you can basically make it all up and it's not 'wrong'. Not adhering to a clearly visible passenger timetable is quite different.

    Sounds like by and large this would be a freight route, with some bonus passenger services. Certainly happy to dig into it more, but I can already read the reviews.

    Matt.
     
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  21. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    I feel like this route would probably have to take a different route that a traditional commuter route, due to the line length and lack of services.

    Casue at most you would have 24 ACE services.

    -4 shuttle services from the ACE yard to the Stockton Station.
    -4 morning commutes from Stockton to San Jose. (Can be split if necessary)
    -8 shuttle services to and from San Jose to the layover yard past Tamien Station.
    -4 afternoon commutes from San Jose to Stockton.
    -4 shuttle moves from Stockton to the ACE yard.

    Outside of that you have mainly UP freight, but not much on the line over the Pass itself, since the only ACTUAL mainline is between Stockton and the Lathrop Wye towards Fresno.

    AI traffic for Caltrain can spawn in between Santa Clara and Tamien, but that's only 3-4 stations, and not worth a playable service IMO.

    AI BNSF traffic would sub in at Stockton at the diamond's, but those would only be for looks and wouldnt effect much unless you are driving a UP train stopped waiting for BNSF to clear that crossing.

    No Amtrak services would sub in as we lack the appropriate stock for those trains (California Cars, F59PHIs or Chargers, and the LD equipment)
     
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  22. KCRCRailway

    KCRCRailway Active Member

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    Can't DTG do a Amtrak Charger base on ACE Charger though? Put the wagon's issue aside
     
  23. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    The Amtrak California ones probably wouldn't need much to change them, the biggest being that they were delivered with an aerodynamic spoiler so they match heights with the California Cars.
    ACE_train_at_Santa_Clara_station,_September_2021.jpg
    42430193012_b16d74cd4c_b.jpg

    The long distance ALC-42s would need a lot more work, externally and internally.
    66863-alc-42-amtrak.jpg
     
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  24. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    There are future plans to increase the service count to about 10 round services and include an extension which might be left out since it does add more miles to the already long 85 miles. Would it be better until there is an increased service count or would people be content with just the 4 round services in current times.
     
  25. uvm0902

    uvm0902 Well-Known Member

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    This proposal interested me. Quite an interesting route with peculiar landscapes. I would buy it! As for game traffic, I think that it can be made fun and close to real.
     
  26. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    Ill leave this here as well, a bit dated as it was recorded in 2005-2006, but gives a visual perspective of most of the line.
     
  27. Krazy

    Krazy Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the not very impressive timetable, I’ve thought of an idea before that I think could help: Include one timetable that replicates the real deal, and include a second timetable with the route that’s fictionalized to be much busier. Not sure how others would like it, but I think it would be a solid solution for not-so-busy routes.
     
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  28. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    Just like someone else suggested in the other thread, if it’s not feasible for TSW due to the timetable, maybe we could get the ACE route in TS Classic instead, that would be alright too.
     
  29. yliu312

    yliu312 Member

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    I am ok with the timetable being that little, personally, its the long run that interests me the most
     
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  30. EpilepticWeasel

    EpilepticWeasel Active Member

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    I would much prefer a Capital Corridor Oakland Jack London Square to Sacramento route for something from this geographical area. 8 passenger services would probably be a hard sell as Matt has hinted to.
     
  31. EpilepticWeasel

    EpilepticWeasel Active Member

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    And if we are talking about passenger routes with low service numbers I think that the Pacific Surfliner, even with minimal services north of Los Angeles, would be more well received than ACE. But to each their own, I welcome any new US content.
     
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  32. mrrando19

    mrrando19 Member

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    As a bay area native I would LOVE to see the ace train come to Tsw. However I would like to wait to see ace added because in a future couple years ace is expanding service up to Sacramento and down to Modesto and expanding their timetable. There would be more services so more to do on the route. and when you add in union pacific this whole route would be great!
     

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