Train Sim World 2: Roadmap Update - 14/12/2021

You might want to put that question here: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/year-in-review-q-a-ask-your-questions-here.49820/

 

I also really feel the need for Dutch routes, and strongly urge you to ask the same question in the end of year Q&A thread Cramnor has already linked in his comment.

I also asked a lot of questions about the inclusion of new countries there. Even though chances seem slim at the moment, I will keep hoping and pushing for Dutch routes, and routes from more new countries in TSW.

 

£9.50 for 5 liverys and a wagon. This is an out of season Aprils fools joke right?

 

On this issue, I am quite sympathetic to DTG's position. I understand that for their business it is essential to maintain and increase licenses and for that it is essential to have a good relationship with the railway companies. I also think it is unfair to compare them with EA or Konami. With all due respect to DTG, they are minuscule compared to other studios and they have to be very careful to continue to exist. So I understand them removing anything that could jeopardize those good relationships and the trust they have gained from Amtrak, DB, Caltrain, etc etc. No matter how small the chance of that happening, they are going to take care of themselves at all costs.

 

And 5 scenarios, and scenery updates and a new timetable so no, it's not.

 

5 liveries, a new coach and 5 scenarios for £9.50 is perfectly acceptable.

Perhaps if this pack was for a more popular DLC, it would be better received.

 

Well, they could at least ask! “Hello, DfT, since we have a good relationship going back years, would it be ok if we let players make BR liveries and share them?”

 

Agreed. If a loco costs 20 a coach by itself is worth half that.

 

Frankly I don't get the sense that they did ask.

 

Yes, you are absolutely right. In any case, we don't know if it has been asked. I sincerely believe that no, they have simply taken the easy way out because it is their right to do so.

 

It seems to me that the way forward is for DTG to make those enquiries, and as they develop put out Rules something like "You may make and share the real-life liveries and logos of Railways X, Y and Z. Additionally, you may use the 'fallen flag' liveries owned by Railway Y. You may not use any other real-world IP at present, but we are in continuing negotiations with other TOCs."

 

Licenses of whatever type are not a bargain.

I have a friend that is a friend of the DB trademark. It makes sense to ask him if thousands of people can use the trademark as they please. I'm sure the millions put into image development and brand promotion can be washed away and they won't mind because they can simply start over.

It's one of those things that until you are in the shoes of a trademark owner you don't understand how it is to build, raise and protect it. Just like we can't understand how people in wheelchairs feel until it happens to us...

 

That's a hell of a lot of admin for a company that would make no money from it. And frankly I wouldn't want to have to trawl through a load of bumph to see if the skin I want to make is going to be on a nice or naughty list just so I can share it

If YOU want to make a livery, make it. If other people can't use it, so what?

 

DTG have stated there will be no other countries unless third parties make them. At a guess I'd say 2022 will be taken up with Steam and their fantasy livery packs.

DTG already have put upon themselves with 'Admin' by having to trawl through all the submissions of liveries to find out if they are acceptable or not, no? I disagree that they wouldn't make any money from it. I believe they would attract new customers, many from TS1. For me it is a no brainer. I can't see how companies would object to this seeing how the 'problem' wasn't around when they did the agreement so DTG are not going back on their word.

I'm no copyright lawyer but if the public do a livery for everyone to share isn't that allowed? If it isn't why isn't companies like Konami still in existence with games like PES.

To answer your 'so what' question take a look at Nat's stream when she does the livery designer. There you will see the talents that some people have with liveries and others like myself have no talent. Sharing liveries is a great way of bringing the community together but placing restrictions on it will turn people off, imo.

Also Lamplight, DTG have said there are many real life Liveries they cannot do so if the public was allowed to edit freely this would be a good way round that and would be a hit. Where you and me differ is that I think this would be a huge boost to the community and indirectly give DTG a huge boost as well in attracting new users. Take Fallout 4 as one example. imo it would be a win/win for DTG.

 

Which is a shame. Only if DTG didn't make it so difficult for 3rd parties to get into developing for TSW...

 

Simpler to look at a picture, see if there's a logo and click the "admin hammer" button than to contact someone, ask them for permission, update a log, make sure that any deniers are off the log, go back through previously submitted and allowed entries and remove them, explain why they've been removed, have hours of roadmaps or other streams explaining why nobody can get any DB content any more...

Most people state they're staying with TS1 because they can create routes, scenarios, full runs, drive for hundreds of miles. Being able to use a loco with the BR logo on it drawn by an amateur has never been stated as an argument.

People keep quoting Konami... in 2019 Konami turned over $2.37 BILLION... that's probably 100 times as much as DTG
Also, I don't know if konami have full control of the sharing mechanism of those shared items, which DTG will have, making DTG the publisher of said material, ie fully responsible for it

I've seen the talent of people creating liveries. Look at the AP 800EP released yesterday. Excellent work.
In your opinion fine, in mine there IS no community. We all like and want different things

Ah, so the old "it's fine, we can just break the law and not be bothered about it" argument. I'll leave that with you

 

I agree totally. There is a thread somewhere on these forums where someone asked the third party developers for TS1 if they would come to TSW2. Most said no, saying how difficult it would be to make a profit and be free of the restrictions placed on them by DTG which is a huge shame as it is us that loses out yet again.

 

I can think of a simpler method..........

I have seen posts from TS1 users saying exactly that. They say if they could do what they do in TSW2 what they do in TS1 they would switch right away, and why wouldn't they?

Perhaps if DTG were to model Konami's example perhaps their profits would increase, I think so.

So your saying the community wouldn't like to drive other real World Trains, Wow!

I never said it was breaking the Law and don't think it is. If you really think it is breaking the Law why does, Konami, EA, Big Ant and all the other companies that offer unrestricted editors still exist?

 

So can I. Don't let ANY editing be shared. Works both ways

Yes, if they could drive full routes with full consists and have full scenario editting tools (rather than restricted platforms and routes) etc etc then they would ADD TSW to their driving rather than sticking to TSC. We're not talking about that.

We don't have tools to create "other real world trains", only to repaint existing ones. No changes to the cab, shell or anything else, ie the BR class 150 will always be that. Can't make a 158, 156, 153, 800, 700... (all of which I would want in a heartbeat)

Copyright law would say different. It's why the 700 isn't in any game in official format, why we couldn't have BNSF logos in game til recently, why footballers keep suing EA... Just because they don't sue Konami or Microsoft doesn't mean they won't delicense DTG and not think twice about it (like Virgin and Arriva did recently in TSC)

 

Until further notice, no and no.

 

In reality, if distributed by DTG, any livery containing someone else’s IP, be it a company logo or livery design, would need to be looked over by an IP lawyer working on their behalf to make a recommendation as to the legality of it and the likelihood of any legal action taking place, unless there were prearranged agreements in place from the IP owners to allow their branding to be used. If a livery was made with Mickey Mouse on it, that lawyer would immediately advise against allowing it to be distributed as it would definitely lead to what could turn out to be a costly lawsuit from Disney.

Some people may shout that any livery copied by a customer for use on a train model would be ‘fair use’ of the original design. That just isn’t the case. There is no one set rule as to whether something is fair use because every case is different and the different parties who have had their IP used without permission could react differently and some may launch a legal case. It would then be up to a judge, and only a judge, to decide whether it was actually fair use in that case. The result from that one case may be a different result than for the next. It’s more likely that the offending livery would be pulled by DTG before it got to court though, unless they wanted to spend a lot of money to test it.

The main arguments in a fair use case would likely concentrate on the prominence, importance and intended purpose of the copied IP and that could go either way in the case of a livery on a train in a simulator. Is it a bit of fun for users with no detrimental effect on the IP owner, or is it being facilitated to increase DTG’s sales of the simulator by riding on the ability to use a well known brand’s image as interpreted and shared by its users. The truth is you wouldn’t really know until it comes to court, and I’m sure DTG would rather it never went that far. One thing is certain, it’s someone else’s IP being used without permission that doesn’t fall under any of the widely recognised parameters of fair use.

And as usual, I’ll add that that what other companies do is irrelevant to what DTG decide to do. They have their business model, their company and their employees to protect. Peering into the distance and seeing what someone else is doing doesn’t tell you under what legal advice, if any, they are operating or what laws they may be breaking and currently getting away with.

 

It isn't nearly as hard as all that. Those RR who have given their approval go on the public, readily accessible Approved list. The same DTG staffer who is (as presently conceived) charged with nuking all RL liveries (and all ICE3s and G6s), is charged with nuking all RL liveries except from those RR on the Approved list. Even if it were to include every single RR that currently appears in game, it still wouldn't be a very long list.

1) Because I make them for other people to use. I wouldn’t bother if the sole extant copy of a work resided on my hard drive and appeared only for me

2) Because I also like adding a multiplicity of liveries by others to my routes, if they are accurate and good. Cumberland Yard is a much more interesting place with a potpourri of boxcars and hoppers

 

Actually it’s much simpler than that: there is NO fair use of a trademark, ever. The fair use doctrine is an aspect of copyright law, which doesn’t apply here.

 

Trademark law is quite specific and registered trademarks are usually only protected from improper use as ‘trademarks’ by others, and cases usually come down to whether someone could mistake a product they are buying (for instance) from being made or endorsed by the trademark owner. There are some legitimate uses of other people’s trademarks such as in artistic works, news reports, reviews etc. just like copyrighted work but again it only ever boils down to whatever fuss the trademark owner wants to make when used in ways other than trade. A logo used as a trademark can also fall under other IP law. This is where the whole livery thing becomes difficult because there are trademark, copyright and other IP laws (registered designs etc.) that all come into play. That’s why proper legal advice and caution are required.

 

While this is true, trademark owners have little problem getting the courts to enjoin the use of their marks in all sorts of unrelated contexts (look up the Ed Sullivan case for a really bizarre one; look also at Ferrari's success in shutting down non-licensed ball caps, coffee mugs and the like). If DTG permitted the use of trademarks willy-nilly without permissions, it wouldn't be hard for, say, Abellio to come in and claim DTG was implying an endorsement of their train product which did not exist.

But the threat of litigation is a much lesser threat than the trademark-owning TOC simply tellin g DTG to go pound sand and yanking, or refusing to approve, the license for official content.

 

It seems quite strange to me that DTG want to adhere to copyright but when it comes to the individual who creates the liveries their right to copyright has to be given up and more due to DTG's rules. Doesn't seem fair no?

The CC in Bethesda at least gave a cut to the creators. I know the CC in Bethesda isn't strictly like for like but there are similarities

 

Again, it isn't a matter of copyright, but of trademark.

 

50th anniversary livery never came to Boston Sprinter. Before you say it's not out yet; It had arrived with the other most recent route and updates. Any reason why?

 

It was never guaranteed to come out with Wednesday's update. I was also slightly disappointed by this, however it was said that they were finalizing the livery and that it should release before the end of the year. There's still two weeks left for them to push out another update with the anniversary livery included.

 

depuis la mise a jour, les panneaux d indications de vitesse sur les lignes allemandes ont un 0 a la place de la vitesse demandée

 

This has been reported in the technical reports section

 

Wouldn't it be a change if just for once DTG started talking about a push to release some fixes instead of a DLC, just once?

 

You know they just released some fixes literally two days ago?

 

It is a minor release and what does it fix? I'm assuming it doesn't address the Xbox sound issues or the PS save problems or even the Preserved routes. RD updates?

 

Not really.

 

They have released several fixes over the year -- it is disingenuous to make statements that they haven't -- maybe not the fixes you want - but fixes have been released. Sorry getting tired of the same old BS.

 

Then what is this? https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-2-update-notes-15th-december-2021.49850/

 

And so they should have released several fixes over the year but before you judge just step back and look at what needs fixing eh? We are still waiting for the Preserved routes to be done, how long do you suggest we should shut up for? We have been waiting over a year in some cases.

Then there is the 4.26 core update that has issues, then the Rush Hour fiasco. Then the lighting and weather. And then the console problems. Sound on the Xbox, file size on the PS. PS4 and Xbox one being dumbed down. DLC with layers removed. Not all these issues affect me but they still need addressing, and you are tired of the same old BS? I'm tired of being fobbed off yet again.

 

Here we go again,

Complain all you want and if you want to get upset about it, that is your right. As I stated there are things that need attention BUT to say they do not fix anything is nothing but misinformation and as I stated disingenuous as to the comment of the poster I was addressing.

 

Spawning on foot seems to reduce the amount of endless broken red signals encountered rather than starting a service via the menu.

 

Wow you sure are a pedant. OK then, DTG are not fixing anything of importance. How is that then? All the important updates DTG have released are minor or route specific. The Preserved routes are being ignored, all of Adam's hard work is being ignored by DTG. Adam himself said he is frustrated his work is not being released, you going to throw some sarcasm Adam's way for being 'upset'? I doubt it.

People on this forum (including me) instead of pointing out complete rubbish at people 'getting upset' said DTG should not have released the core update so close to Rush Hour? Now look at the mess they are in. DTG spent months saying before Rush Hour release how it will increase passenger numbers and be revolutionary, yeah right. It is a bug fest. If they had concentrated on the core release and getting that stable then they could of started on Rush Hour preferably one route at a time but no, it all had to come at once. DTG's timetable no-one else's, I don't think there was that many people even wanting Rush Hour or even if there was I bet now they wished they hadn't bothered especially if you are on last gen.

I want to see more quality releases that work for everyone and the way they do that is release fixes and get the core of the game to function as it should but no. I am I 'upset'? Not really, I'm getting to the stage of past caring. I have stopped playing TWS2 as DTG won't give GWE RD support as promised. I don't buy any DLC either until they do then I will happily. DTG are losing out not me. I'm 'concerned' DTG just do not listen to it's player base, not in everything, and they are killing the game for many people. TSW2 should be a fantastic game, it can be in small parts but taken as a whole it is disappointing. TS1 is not for me but I regularly watch videos and it is a better game imo.

Have you heard of a game called 'No Mans Sky'? The game was done by a far smaller team than DTG and it had released to huge worldwide acclaim only the hype didn't fit the game. Instead of not fixing/updating the game he virtually rewrote it, added new mechanics and added a whole bunch of stuff, for free. As he did listen to all the backlash he was getting, now go look at the game. He is an example to the games industry to what can be done when things don't go they way you hoped.

Lastly, what do you think forums are for? To bury your head in the sand like you? To me it is for raising concerns about the game in question. If anyone is getting 'upset' as you put it, it is you. Perhaps you should stay away from forums for a quieter life maybe?

 

You really shouldn't have to be spawning on foot to not have issues though.

 

So you have proved my point - they have issues fixed - just not the one you want. I am just stating the truth of it - you want to continue on the vein that the fixes they have issued are trivial. I think the addition of PIS on routes , the improvements of traffics density, adding road traffic were not desired by the community. Ok if that is your stance have at it.

I will stay with my stance they do issue fixes and patches - just not in the order or speed that satisfy all in the community.

I am glad you think I am burying my head in the sand when my statements are all truthful and you are the one that moves the goal posts. Against please refute my statement that DTG has released patches and fixes to the simulation.

 

I think we do have to make a distinction between added features/upgrades (PIS, crossing gates, skybox, livery sharing, future things like multiplayer or dynamic weather) and fixing bugs, things which impair the playability of the game as it is supposed to be already (speedboards reading 0, erroneous stop signals, borked US in-cab signaling, save function not working, whacked physics on certain locos). TBH, bug fixes should take priority.

 

Hahaha, you proud to be a pedant? Proved your point? Hardly, it was just you that were missing mine. And thank you for proving my point that the fixes are not the IMPORTANT ones.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even you, me included but it isn't for you to decide what is truthful and not.

 

Not just opinion, but fact - DTG has released fixes - that is my point - if you re-read my post you will see I also acknowledge your position , they are not the fixes you want or in as a timely manner as many would desire.

 

That explains the fact i have almost no problems running the services on any route.

I dont do the journey, but start always on foot to have time. I dont like loading a service and beeing behind schedule without even setup the train.

Also when i make more than 1 service in the timatable mod, it never caused a mess of waiting trains behind signals. (Not included the red signal bug).

I guess im lucky in this case when i read the comments. Also dont have performance problems on my pc.

Most of the time i use the timetable mode, so cant talk about scenarios.

 

Bug fixes should take priority but it's kinda odd how some bug fixes that have been complete months ago by adam's team have yet to be released

 

I did a few testings on routes while doing other stuff. london to brighton was running well for 6 hours, until the gwr service from redhill got stuck. Reloaded to the time it got stuck the service worked for another 6 hours.

So i would say its not a bad performance for 4500 ai services to manage. And nobody is spending so much time in one loaded route anyway.

 

Tbh i do spawn on foot as well but on occasion I'll just select a service in the timetable menu I actually find it a bit more realistic to walk to your train on foot and set it up before departure. I look at the timetable to see which service i want to do and just spawn on foot and catch the train that is doing the service I want to do