I guess I'm a "fanboi", but TSW is the sim i keep coming back to. I've played at least one version of just about every train sim going back to MSTS, and while some have them have done certain things better than TSW, none of them have grabbed me as strongly. Maybe it's just being able to move around in first-person, climb on the locos and cars, etc, and not just viewing everything as a floating camera? Obviously it's very subjective. Quite a few people have mentioned preferring TSC and spending more time with that lately, and that's fine, if you're not enjoying your hobby, what's the point? I don't totally understand spending so much time or gnashing of teeth on an "inferior product", though? I totally get a rant or vent now and then, but some people seem consistently aggravated, and honestly, TSW has been out 5 years now- it will change and evolve over the years, but we all know what it is and isn't- expecting it to suddenly change into a completely different product is unrealistic IMO. Edit: i just saw a suggestion to ditch UE and move to a bespoke engine- there's a debate to be had on whether UE was the right choice, but changing engines now would be a nightmare. It could only work if it was launched as a completely new product IMO.
I mean at the time it probably wasn't a bad thing. I still don't think using unreal was a bad choice. Although you can argue DTG could've had better hindsight like with route extensions for example. Granted, Unreal wasn't really designed for train simulation in the first place so there were bound to be some limitations I'd assume. The reason why games like MSFS, Euro Truck, American Truck, TSC, and OMSI 2 still do well is because of user generated content. Editors are a good thing but even then not all user generated is the best. AP makes good content but frankly their prices for some of their content are absolutely absurd for a few scenarios and having to pay for updates is very odd. Heck maybe if there was an editor, we would probably. have route extensions by now. Or better scenery assets etc. This could be an example of short turn gain, long term loss which isn't a bad thing from a financial point of view of DTG but in the long term, this means that the growth that players want to see has to come from DTG which takes time. It took a while just to have working PIS for example. Had there been a public editor, perhaps we could've seen working pis even sooner. You also would have to take into account console players. How would they be able to make content like routes or trains? Not to mention the complexity of an editor as well. It would be good if DTG were to release scenario planner 2.0 eventually or maybe allow players to make a custom timetable (although a custom timetable could present it's own issues.) It would allow more players to have more flexibility since no editor will be coming. Scenario Planner in it's current form extremely bare and limited.
I am somewhat disappointed that this thread has become a bit of a shouting match, for some at least. I don't think it is wrong to enjoy TSW at all, or TSC. Both can be fun, but both are held back by the way Dovetail works. Many of TSW's issues also come from the engine's limitations. The base features of TSW, which can't be done directly in Train Simulator were and are the weapons used in the TS vs TSW debate, but I still feel little confidence that DTG can actually make TSW the true replacement - like how Atari tried for years to make a true sequel to RollerCoaster Tycoon 3 but never could. The lack of willingness to even try to release an editor not only has made the game less enjoyable for many (even for those with no ambition to build routes) but has meant inventive members of the community have felt the need to reverse engineer it, which is a bad sign for the integrity of Dovetail and the game itself. JD may have not enjoyed reading through this thread but neither have I, and the initial response he gave to me/us is the generic 'corporate damage control' post. It doesn't fix any issues or address my concerns - in some cases, it's made it worse. Asking Matt Peddlesden tough questions on a stream is not DTG moving forward. What we really want is DTG to actually change. I agree with those who say DTG is in a 'one step forward, two steps back' situation. It is so upsetting seeing the game ruined when there are so many good things. In that regard, DTG are better now than in the days of the Class 91 and 321 DLCs. Those were total, unapologetic LOVE, but at the same time they didn't break the game. There was a choice that we could make. The choice for me was 'AP Class 91 Enhancement Pack'. I would be very disappointed to see this thread locked, because it would be a slap in the face to myself and those in a similar position. I want to enjoy TSC and TSW but for varying reasons we just can't, at least without a healthy dose of denial.
Please, Calm, everyone stay calm. Matt, JD, Sam are going to build this game back better. Reset it for a brighter future. I believe with the advent of TSW3 in the next year or so dovetail are going to make the best game of the year, resetting all titles forever. It will most likely be more popular than elder Scrolls 6, people will trade in AAA games just to get it. Please, Calm, This game will build back better Calm...
I would actually be quite interested to learn what Paul Jackson's view is on the state and future of TSW. Ultimately as the CEO the buck stops with him and he has the authority to start directing changes to internal processes and procedures which could reform the way forward. I have visions of the dialogue between Dan O'Herlihy's Old Man and Ronny Cox in the opening scenes of Robocop, after the Ed209 goes beserk and eviscerates a board member... [ED-209 has malfunctioned during a demonstration, killing Kinney in the boardroom] The Old Man : [12:43] D1ck, I'm very disappointed. D1ck Jones : I'm sure it's only a glitch, a temporary setback. The Old Man : [raises his voice in anger] You call this a GLITCH? Oh and the forum swear filter strikes again, it blips the accepted abbreviation for the name "Richard" to "Love"...
To go back to the points made by jamesthepershing, we have become quite comfortable buying things, complaining about them, waiting a year for them to be playable, then repeating a cycle. Something released should be in a state to be released, and we have seen throughout DTG's existence that this rule is not followed. Their excuses dry up when, as Mr Pershing says, individual people are able to make stuff better than DTG, and when fixes for bugs DTG makes are fixed within hours by the community yet are still not officially released.
Agreed….. It would be good to see a ceo statement or stream appearance no matter how succinct. Acknowledgment more so
The problem is costs. It would be too expensive to fix things apparently. Remember, it is very expensive to notice the broken pis on the 442 in RT....yet a modder can release something in a matter of hours or days. It's easy to blame Microsoft or Sony though. But I always think that if you released a good product, the cost of the pre release fixes would be covered by the sales of the product and any future sale would help pay for any bug fixes. Think of the money skyhook probably lost when they released the 187 in that state. Had they released it in a better state, then wouldn't the costs of development come back to them with the number of sales. Like let's say for example DTG released a new timetable and fix the audio issue on LIRR and the M7, there may be some players that didn't buy the route because of those issues. If those issues were fixed, there may be some inclined to purchase the route and even the M3. It probably wouldn't be a ton of players but they would still make cash regardless. If 10 players bought it, they would make $299.99 If 20 Players bought it, they would make $599 If 30 Players bought it, they would make $899 If 40 players bought it, they would make $1,199 and so on and so forth so updating routes would make dtg money. Probably not as they would've at launch but they would make some sort of financial gain along with the profits they made from previous dlcs and investors. This is all just assumptions so I could be wrong but it doesn't seem unreasonable.
I would like to hear from him as well. A q&a would be really nice. We always hear from the same people with same excuses, would be nice to ask the man himself some tough questions. Reading through these posts, I for one don’t want TSW to fail or die or whatever, I really want it to be a full on TSC alternative that is just better in every way. The main issue I have with DTG is the fact that they release content with outright blatant issues, they then apologise and say it will be fixed, 6 months to a year we see a fix but with other bugs delivered with it, we then get Matt on a stream saying how it’s unacceptable and shouldn’t happen and they working to fix it…but guess what, on the next release, the above cycle starts again, and then again, and then again, and then again. At first I was sympathetic and felt content with what Matt mentioned, but now I’m done with all that, my sympathy tank is empty and I have had enough of the excuses, I want to start seeing actual tangible results before I go back to support TSW. I agree that a content editor would make such a difference! I remember a long time ago Matt showed one off that looked really promising, but as usual it disappeared into the abyss. I as well think we all need to calm down, shouting at each other won’t help anyone or fix anything. I know a lot of us have spent a lot of money on content and it’s frustrating to get what we are getting, but if you want to make a real difference, we need to just stop buying the content, simple, and that is what I am going to do until they sort out TSW, if they never do, well then at least I won’t be wasting any more of my money.
Indeed! I'm doing that now with my Bossman Black Five at Kyle waiting to depart with the 0505 Boat Train in TSC. But I would love to be able to replicate that experience in TSW, some day!
OldVern can be found selling bossman locos at your local supermarket made from cake, I think he has a love for their product and perhaps cake.
M'mmmm, cake... The irony is, that DTG have actually had a shedload of money off me in the last few days for BMG and VW locos in TSC (I don't know if they get a cut for the Matrix coaches on Marketplace), probably not far short of £100. Obviously some of that goes to the developer(s), Steam and the taxman but I had to smile earlier at the comments from some quarters because we felt justified in supporting the OP and adding some views of our own that we "hate" DTG!
I've heard it's not worth upgrading to Trainz 2022 unless you are interested in the route surveyor, and that most would be better off buying TRS19 instead.
I agree. Thats the usual cycle and i hope it will not repeat again. I dont get why they did not include names for stations like "Augsburg Hbf" for example.
PJ is no longer the CEO of DTG. He is the chairman now, which is a semi-retired pipe and slippers role. There is a new CEO and has been for about a year now. Other than this, I haven’t felt the need to reply to this thread. It’s an interesting read but to put my feelings about the game, both good and bad, would take me hours to write and bore everyone to tears. Maybe some day I’ll make a ‘my feelings’ thread.
Unless you take out the subscription version, TRS22 as sold on Steam or a one off purchase doesn't include Surveyor 2.0. For the time being I'm still happy with TRS19 for route building, N3V finally got it patched to a reasonable state (DTG aren't the only ones who drop the ball) and I can't really justify £55 for the new version.
Yeh the tsw2 map isnt really useful. DTG would just have to add names of the stations really to the map and maybe the service number of an ai train. Not sure why they haven't worked on it after all this time to be honest.
The map has been on the the "if it's not on the roadmap " pile for ages. I think a good 6-8 months ago matt was saying it was a hard upgrade to do.
Maybe it needs a complete overhaul which is why they are having difficulties. But had they worked on map issue in the beginning, they wouldn't be in this mess. Another example of the company's lack of hindsight.
To be fair we don't know that it would have been any less hassle to fix it then. The 2D map is annoying but it is hardly the most pressing issue, it wasn't five years ago and certainly isn't now. Matt did explain the problems with the map and their ambitions for it.
As I have said before watershed moment I suspect, all production halted and efforts on this. I have enjoyed it but am sad that it has bugs that take enjoyment away from it also for others as well as me. Time for DTG to take a long hard look at the future. We can't have bugged DLC that takes months or in some cases years to fix. Time for a simplistic approach and perhaps new software?
doublefine7, redrev1917 About the 0633 service, everything went smoothly until after I did 12km in reverse, and was in the process of stopping and changing direction, I got a SPAD message. Honestly I don't know if it's possible and I don't care A service where you have to drive 12km backwards because of a misplaced marker is as broken as one that can't be finished at all to me. https://www.twitch.tv/fd1003/v/1496384983?sr=a Unrelated: https://clips.twitch.tv/OutstandingPhilanthropicOwlStoneLightning-I4ty294AnHePKVLA Thanks for YET ANOTHER BUFFER RELATED BUG! Added to the list, because what REALLY needed fixing was buffers clipping, the fact that it causes 10000 other bugs and issues, who cares. Way to go DTG! I LOVE* hearing buffer clang sound every time my train goes over a switch. I LOVE* the fact that the TGV is now super jerky whenever the train gets compressed. I LOVE* being flung 10km/h faster when using PZB, If that would have caused an emergency brake application I would have uninstalled the game there and then. BUT HEY! BUFFERS DO NOT CLIP ANYMORE! *insert crab rave here* History repeats itself with DTG: All speed boards set to 0 Huge number of broken services because of the distance the trains stops from the signal Revert to before the 30.05 update already, it caused more issues than it fixed. If you couldn't tell, I'm so incredibly frustrated with this game right now. If the cause of the SoS derailment is that buffer patch, that would be so poetic. *not censored, that's what I actually wrote Addendum: Sorry for the off topic, and sorry for venting my frustration like this
I was lead to believe they were planning on doing that anyway, although it is more of a case of when.
Do you use any mods? The resolution and how it looks turns me off after the high fidelity we got with TSW. The controls are simpler too but that might be on my side, I might have to poke through the settings to set it to pro or something.
I have just read all the posts in this thread and say I fully agree with the OP and others that have tried to state what is going wrong with the game but it seems to met with certain people who just are not listening to what is being said. People are getting labelled 'toxic' because they are highlighting faults within the game or flaws? And some are even getting labelled or get jumped on cause they think that there shouldn't be a female fireman (clue is in the name) in the 1950's. And some even try to point out it is 'progressive' to have the female fireman in, WTF? People point out these flaws cause they want TSW2 to be the best train game out there. SOS is supposed to have been sold as a period piece so trying to rewrite history is just a big turn off to many the only agenda that is being subscribed to is realism and people should not be made to feel awkward because of it. People should realise that people pointing out the flaws in the game are doing a much greater service than people that say 'there are bugs but we still think the game is great'. DTG's problem imo is QA and not addressing historical bugs. I stopped playing TSW2 months ago but I keep coming back in the vain hope GWE gets updated, I find it insulting one of the first DLC still hasn't got it's updates released. I also think the game is not a sim especially when DTG put out stuff that either wasn't there at the time or just doesn't work or indeed is missing like sound. I know the game can't be 100% sim but it could be a lot better. Perhaps DTG won't be able to improve until they move to a new engine as been said who knows but I wish DTG would give the ones who want more realism a nod to.
Probably less than 5 years hopefully. Although granted it's not really a major issue for me to be honest. I just don't use the map because it's useless
Well, in fairness, I think the label 'toxic' has less to do with position than manner. Some posters, while raising legitimate concerns, are doing it with tone and language which would be objectionable even if they were praising motherhood and apple pie.
The stream tomorrow should be interesting. I have deactivated Auto Updates for TSW2 because I don't want the stuff broken that I can currently enjoy in-game. So I now always will wait a few days before updating. Sadly with steam it seems it will always update when you start the game and your only option is to disconnect from the internet
The QA issue has been around for years. It is fine to have a QA team but there's no point having one in the bugs they find aren't patched. I remember on a stream once (I think I did anyway) that the QA team does find most of the bugs we complain about, but DTG does nothing with that information. That is a huge problem and one of the reasons I made this thread.
Really? Simulator games are tough to make? Seems SCS Software has no problems creating theirs... Trains without sounds, near empty timetables, weird lighting, red signals that won't ever clear, etc. are no small issues. You don't have to be a train nut to know there's something wrong. Even SCS Software wouldn't get away with that. No, we focus on what is currently breaking our immersion and creates frustration. I believe that's the right thing to focus on. Obviously there's still plenty of stuff in TSW we enjoy, otherwise we wouldn't be buying it and we wouldn't be spending our time and effort posting passionate feedback on these forums in the hope DTG will fix the piece of software we all passionately care about. Firstly, steam reviews only count those people who have bought it. Secondly, as steam has no 'middle' option, a positive review doesn't mean the customer is entirely happy with the product (but just happy enough). So 25% of reviewers think SoS is so bad, it's worth a negative review. But you make it sound like you're OK with that. Lauching with small bugs isn't the real issue here. It's the fact that small bugs remaing unfixed for a prolonged time, or the patch that's supposed to fix them introduced more issues than it fixes. Some of these issues are spotted immeditately by players, so how come your company missed those during testing? And then there's the bugs that really are a tad too big to be classified as 'small'... or DTGs making promises they can't live up to.
Unfortunately I almost never play tsw2 anymore, maybe the odd service, but I've completely switched to run8 so much smoother and bug free and it's an actual real SIM with a huge world. check it out run8.com
If SCS software ever released a train sim, I would buy it in a flash Their american truck simulator and eurotruck simulator 2 are both amazing. Quite often when driving ATS and waiting at a railroad crossing, I find myself wishing they would make a train sim.
I like ETS but I am not sure making a truck sim is quite the same as a train sim. For example you don't get every mile of road and a lot of the cities are quite generic, I haven't played it for some time now and I believe they have been updating quite a lot of it. I would imagine it might be easier to get access to trucks than to trains.
They did update quite a lot indeed, and their newer and updated cities are much less generic than the older stuff. I'd suggest you boot up the game again to see what's been updated. Germany received an update and recently also Austria. Both are part of the base game so no DLC required. Take a look and be amazed how SCS handles their updates.
I will take a look at some point. I only have a 500gb HD at the moment, I mistakenly took the advice of the proprieter of my local computer repair shop! Therefore I dare not add any more games to the hard drive as it is close to being full. I am getting a external one soon, so will look at ETS again when I have. I used to enjoy it, it was very relaxing listening to the radio and driving a truck.
Run8 physics are top notch, you really do feel like you're in charge of a heavy train. It's also a shame that they haven't released a route/loco editor etc as it would be nice to have a UK based freight route for it (with a class 66 or something).
I would suggest I've probably directly reported more bugs with detailed recordings and instructions to reproduce than pretty much anyone here, so lets keep it real shall we? I do not feel I muddy the waters, I feel I add perspective. Imagine a new player coming into the forums and thinking what I have I bought? Is it a total lemon? The answer is no its not, its a good game with some issues. Without this counterpoint you'd be thinking something very different reading a thread in a self fulfilling echo chamber. ps. I'll turn the techno down now, sorry mate, wasn't thinking it was 2am . Paul
Listen to this then tell me what you hear as it pulls out of the station? If it doesn't start at 15.00 go there first.
Well 12 months on BML still does not have rush hour passengers although advertised as a rush hour route. You've gotta admit thats pretty embarrasing.
Not as embarrassing as some preservation content having bugs in TSW2 that weren't there in TSW2020. It has been almost 2 years and yet we aren't completely up to the same level of quality we had in TSW2020 (although admittedly received a few new features).
Dear landlord, do you really like trains or train fans! Although I didn't read your article in full. Will DTG watch it? I bet "they won't". They were determined to maximise commercialisation and to develop a 40 mile route and we were left with a 'pay £25 or no' option.
Did you listen to the video at 15.00 - you can clearly hear clickety clack of joint sounds. As I go on to say in the video they are not everywhere but you can hear them in lots of places.
