If you're the sort of person who sits there and says "Well it should work..." then maybe this is true. For others who like to look into (and talk about) why things may not be working and what may be done to rectify the situation then talking about (and thinking about) the whys and wherefores is a valid thing to do I'm pretty sure most people at some point in there life want a bit more of an explanation than "Well it doesn't..."
Difference is we're not having a go at each other for having differing opinions or methodologies... If you don't care why something doesn't work and I do that doesn't mean we don't want the same outcome (in this case reliably working sounds), it does mean we have different ways of working towards getting these things in place OR stopping ourselves from going slightly mad in the meantime...
Totally, I'm not a game developer myself. I only wrote a few lines of codes in my life, but I was never able to bear having something not work the way it should and not knowing how or why, whether it is in a video game, or home appliances. I wish there was more time and effort spent into making more "techie" stream were they talk about how the game works and how some bugs come to be. Rivet is excellent with this, their video on their ETCS set-up was very interesting and explained some of the difficulties and limitation of TSW when it comes to this kind of systems for example.
Unfortunately DTG seems to have reined back their output (maybe tonight's "new person revelation" will be a new community manager to take up some of Nat's output) but I agree, some in depth under the hood explanations and even demonstrations of how easy it is to mess these things up might help, but it does well to remember that there are people who just expect things to happen, and to work And they're not wrong...
While I enjoyed and appreciated the vid on recording live sounds for SoS, unfortunately they didn't follow it up with anything on the process of incorporating those sound files into the game or tying them to Simugraph (which is, let's face it, where all the problems come from).
Those are the start of the problems... Unfortunately these things are so complex with so many conflicting interactions it can seem as if DTG are deliberately breaking things (which it's very likely they're not) but again because we pay them for things some people will still argue "It should just work"
I tend to agree and generally when something doesn't work it usually helps to have an explanation as to why, even if you don't understand it! It also helps the developer in getting an understanding across as to why a certain fix might be taking a long time, although in DTG terms that can run into months!
Agreed. I'd be curious for example is what led to the propulsion motors on the M7A on Harlem line to fade away and have no sound in the last 4-6 cars of the train. Yes it should always work from the beginning but it is good to know why something is broken or isn't working in the first place. There was no explanation as to why the PIS on the 442 in RT was allowed to be released in a broken state that would be spotted in mere seconds. Sometimes it's good to know why.
Those of you dreaming that a game engine change will improve things (especially QA) need to do some reading on game development. From the DTG viewpoint, there are likely to be only three engines offering the power and flexibility required - Unreal, Unity and Cryengine and AFAIK none of them are noticeably superior in the key areas for our purpose - physics and audio. Building their own engine would just mean using 2 or 3 or more years of development time which would be better applied to adapting an existing engine (unless they hired a whole new team for parallel development - not going to happen, even in AAA game builders). Having lived through the pain of update to UE4.26 and seeing the new capabilities of UE5, my personal preference is for a very measured update to UE5 - no hurry, let's just get the update/bug mess fixed using the current engine.
Do they do this only in a dev build, or only with metric processing in the background or do they do it in a live environment? Do they have other programs running on the same machine, up to date windows versions on PC etc Unfortunately the simplest answer is just that, simple. Often you have to look past the simple and look to what else may be affecting the issue As an example I had someone ring me this morning saying they couldn't get onto the internet in the office but swore blind it was working at home... They didn't understand it takes several fairly complex processes to get from a laptop over the wireless out through a shared network onto the wider network then onto the internet. All they knew was one thing worked and now it didn't
I agree totally - Purno and ARuscoe prove you can have a conversation and not agree without resorting to belittling tactics - it is from these type of conversations I gain a lot of good information with an open exchange of opinions and facts. For another involved in this thread - I find the "Ignore" functions works well. Thanks to you both for keeping it civil. A refreshing development in these forums.
I've been here for five or six years... I doubt anything I do is anywhere near refreshing or development lol, but thanks??
The sound glitches in TSW2 vary from lazy to just plain weird, in the case of the M7. What makes the sounds of specific coaches fade out is something beyond our understanding (and likely Dovetail's as well).
The final straw for me was seeing Matt, JD and Adam laughing and joking whilst giving themselves a pat on the back on a job well done tonight. Meanwhile I had 2 more crashes. Prior to the update on the 30/5 I can count on one hand how many crashes I've had since RH. I had 7-8 in the last 2 days. But hey atleast SoS is selling well.
On one of my brief passthroughs to see if anything has changed for the better recently, or there’s something that might tempt me back to TSW. Looking at the current crop of threads that is very obviously NOT the case. Doomotron, your post is spot on and neatly sums up many of the points so many of us have been making for so long. Something is rotten at the core of the way DTG is set up. It has always been this way and I find it baffling that so many people are still here, still expecting it to get better. The forums are almost a carbon copy of themselves from 4 or 5 years ago. The people posting and the names of the DLC are different, but the gripes and frustrations are exactly the same. ps In my humble opinion of course DTG is pushing an agenda. Who is behind it is anybody’s guess but whilst forcing your view of the world onto other people is one thing, not having the stones to stand behind those opinions when an eyebrow is raised about them is very sketchy. This is meant to be a simulator, to simulate real life warts and all. I have a young daughter who I tell every day she can do and be whatever she wants. But I will also tell her how things used to be, and critically why they used to be that way. Women didn’t work on steam train footplates in the 50’s, to pretend they did is not being inclusive, it is lying. Modern attempts to re-write history are a very bad thing in my eyes. Having a chip on your shoulder so big that you judge previous generations by your own comfy standards and condemn them without experiencing their lives is ignorant. Regarding TSW and it’s many problems I’ve spoken with my wallet. One day I hope I can come back and find DTG have changed and the game lives up to it’s full potential, but I know deep down that’s never going to happen.
I think a lot of work is due to make bugfixes and overall planning and businessplan for producing quality content for TSW2 and TSC. DTG is still in train sim business because it has no big competitor, unfortunatly. We still buy the same unfinished products despite some good ones. Still there is hope recently about quality contrôle. Personally i refrain myself from buying TSW content for now, my faith in DTG is limited and I really feel that whole TSW project is too big for the company. Time will tell. Now about a political agenda, come on, is this so important ? TSW is not a take on history writing, its a game, maybe à simulator, not a historical book. Maybe they should add an option to switch off the female fireman, but there is more important things to do. Ah, and the threads were closed not because of content but because some folks get disrespectful to others IIRC.
I disagree. I think it is important to be historically accurate but thankfully, for now at least, it’s fine for people to have differing opinions! I’m very concerned that if those of us lucky enough to live in free societies don’t stand up for freedom of speech and thought we will lose it. Censoring people’s opinions on specific ‘no go’ topics is a red flag that as a society we’re already on that road.
This is why I can’t stand that type of presentation and sadly why I fear things will never change, the attitude of the people responsible is just wrong. In fact, comes across as more than a little contemptuous. Regrettably they don’t think they are doing anything wrong. Never mind the shambles that is SoS, just got to look at the inaction over the Rivet mess with WCL. Further to my thoughts earlier in the thread, maybe it is time for some changes in the management structure. Well I expect the “ambassador” (official and unofficial) will be along shortly to tell us everything is wonderful and we’re all a bunch of whinging cucumbers who should just cuss off and play ETS2. I do know this though. Until attitudes change I will be thinking carefully how much of my money goes direct to DTG and if that means buying TSC stuff direct from the publishers, such as CW and SSS, so be it - even if it means losing the convenience of the Steam backup. Final thought for this post, currently DTG are making N3V look like consummate professionals, something I never thought I’d say!
That why i think an option to switch off the female fireman would be nice and make more people happy... Its one thing to say it's inaccurate, another one to say it's rewriting history... For my part im less happy with the outfits of passengers in SOS that for some looks more like 30s than 50s. Still its cosmetic.
To be fair, I don’t think the female fireman is actually part of the agenda as such, I think it’s just the usual lack of care / attention to detail from DTG. I think the system just randomly assigns a character into the secondman/fireman position so you could literally have anything there. If a cow was classed a character in this game you would probably have one stood next to you. I believe that’s why so often in the past the character in that position is wearing generic civilian clothing. That neatly takes me back to the OP. Lack of attention to detail and care is at the heart of the problems with this game. An attitude of ‘it’ll do’ pervades almost every last bit of the TSW experience, something the OP chronicles very well indeed.
No it was a conscious decision, I can't find it right now but JD said as much. It was to "recognise the work of everyone on the product" and they are more than happy with that position.
An example of this showed in last night's stream and it wasn't to do with "higher management" but Adam and or the way testing is done (yup, back to the old testing thing) The section was on the issue with rapid transit and how the PIS got messed up in the last update. Adam spoke about how they'd amended a texture in one of the cabs, but when they did this the ONLY testing done was on the impact of that texture change on that specific cab, rather than someone doing a full review of everything. I realise that a full test takes time, but this is why there needs to be development deadlines which are days or weeks ahead of release deadlines. It stops further development issues pervading and allows for the LAST test to be done being the thorough every single checkmark test. Sometimes I think DTG try to make too much happen in a single release and don't do enough checks to make sure that it all works as it should from a player perspective rather than a management one, but I guess it proves the point that a lot of testing is based on responding to a question rather than "is everything as it should be?"
That was ridiculous, because all they had to do was go outside the 442 and look at the outside of it, they would have seen the door and the PIS on the back was screwed up immediately! Talk about blinkered, that really isn't the sort of testing they should be doing, it can't hurt to at least have a once-over of the thing inside and out can it? The number of things that get through and it takes seconds to notice them is pretty embarrassing. I don't mind odd cases where you had to be doing something unusual to trigger the error but these sort of things are basic.
The thing with testing is "What is the question?" In this case they'd done their all over test, but due to some spot dev they really needed to do that thorough final test again rather than a spot test
Personally I think that DTG should adopt a policy of open Beta testing. Have an option to purchase early access releases at a 20% discount on the understanding that it is a beta and may contain problems. This would instantly increase the amount and scope of beta testing and more of these QA problems would be brought to the fore before release of final build.
Of course everyone wants to pay less for their DLC. Not sure it would help on things that are already released and then get broken by an update further down the line
If happily join an open beta server to test updates as well as new products. Anything which prevents game breaking bugs ruining my experience and (as currently) preventing me from playing the game at all. I wouldn't even expect a discount.
Then by all means go to their jobs page and hit the "any other" option at the bottom. They're always looking for skilled motivated people to join their team (apparently)
This is what was actually said in the thread that was locked in the end by JD "There are female fireman (firepeople?) in the game, and representation is important to us as a company. There are a significant amount of women for whom we owe a lot when it comes to the railways. Whether it is prototypical or not, this feels like a small way in which we can honour that. There is no "political", sexual equality or "gay agenda" here (and it feels awful to have to write that sentence), but people should feel represented." Take of that what you will. Frankly I wouldn't blame some who called Train Sim World "Train Sim Woke Simulator" or Dovetail Games "Dovetail Woke Games. Everyone who plays should feel represented regardless of gender or sexual orientation and for a game in which you play alone, it doesn't really make sense to force this on players that want to play as realistically as possible only instead to pushed/presented with a political agenda even though DTG will as always deny it. These issues aren't because players are sexist, it's just a realism issue.
They need to have the preservation crew take their time with updates because it makes it seem as if they are just rushing them out the door.
Which is why I've said before we need cut off dates which are week or two ahead of intended release rather than devving up to the last minute. Having your full test (and then snag that test) then do another full test is how it should be rather than do your full test, add in this little bit, look at that little bit, release
Although this is issue is only a small part of the original post, I don’t think I’ve ever read such utter drivel in all my life as that quote. Who are these people who feel they must be relentlessly represented in everything? So you want to represent women on the railways? Brilliant, but why not make a DLC that does just that, reflecting real life. Celebrate it properly. How about the Jubilee Line? I believe they have recruited many female drivers there. However, following the logic of that quote, once they make this DLC they’d need to replace some of the women with men to make sure everyone is represented. To attempt to re-write history in this way is not only dangerous (because it’s the thin end of the wedge), it’s patronising to women in general and specifically to the women that were brave enough and big enough to change attitudes and working practices over the decades. This sort of nonsense is just virtue signalling at it’s very worse (although the signalling in this case probably doesn’t work properly). Anyway, I don’t feel that Grand Theft Auto specifically represents me sufficiently. Who do I write to to change that?
So what next, to achieve full authenticity we're going to ban female gamers from using manual firing modes? Whoever knew pixels on a screen would cause this much political stir in a video game. My time is better spent crying for the introduction of the pacer into TSW.
So long as it's not like those stupid cooking games on the tablets where you have to throw together various ingredients in short order to serve an increasing line of customers... Whenever I've tried it, iPad has usually ended up the other side of the room, after checking SWMBO and the cat out the way of course!
So my takeaway from the stream: They did test the patch A freak accident happened so many bugs slipped through They will make sure this never happens again. I dont know what to think about that... What do you think?
Nobody is rewriting history. What is happening is DTG making a game that appeals to everyone, to played now in 2022, without the negative conventions of the past. In 1958, a considerable percentage of people would be smoking cigarettes or cigars or pipes but they won’t be in the game because it needs to be suitable for all ages. TSW2 is not a historical document nor is it a documentary, and although it is depicting the trains and routes from an era in the past it is actually existing as a form of entertainment for everybody today, and therefore does not have to restrict itself to the people of the past, or their exact ways of life. There are other ways to relive the full ‘warts and all’ history of everything but this game isn’t one of them. It’s not going to change either and nor should it. Imagine giving a young girl the chance to drive a virtual steam train alongside a woman firing the locomotive and not having her feeling upset when her dad explains that everyone depicted in the game is a man because that’s just how it was back then, and pitch it against a grown man crying like a young girl because the fireman is a woman and it just wasn’t how it was back then. One of those images is rather sad. The other is inclusive.
Well we can't just hide from the past. I don't see a problem with it to be honest because that's how it was at the time.
I can't say I agree. It's one thing simply not to show certain aspects of the past which are not presently acceptable, like widespread smoking - it simply isn't there - and quite another to introduce elements which are affirmatively false, like people talking on cellphones.
