Tsc - It’s Train Time On Long Island!

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Jamie, Jul 14, 2022.

  1. DTG Jamie

    DTG Jamie Staff Member

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    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
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  2. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    At last!!
     
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  3. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    The question is: is it better than the TSW version?
     
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  4. trainbraint

    trainbraint Well-Known Member

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    Yes indeed in my opinion, for one thing the M7 is a massive improvement over any previous versions I’ve played, and the whole route looks great throughout. Frame rate is a bit of an issue, however, for me, definitely a lot better than the stream last night in case anyone was wondering. It holds up with 25 - 40 fps in most areas, dropping to about 15 in heavier areas like Jamaica. The extra little stubs of branches are lovely additions, can’t wait to see what people might do in the way of extensions.
     
  5. Schnauzahpowahz

    Schnauzahpowahz Well-Known Member

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    Frames are absolutely terrible. Unless this guy above has a nasa computer itll run sub 20fps at best and single digits elsewhere.

    I can't believe this passed muster

    Ive got a 5800x cpu / 6700xt gpu / m.2 ssd
    and its unplayable- unless you're in the "i like to punish myself" variety


    In example Lirr... makes Hudson Line/Wasatch in Blue look 'fast' fps wise

    Simply astonishing
     
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  6. trainbraint

    trainbraint Well-Known Member

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    Pretty beefy - but not quite NASA standard :). My PC has often been a bit inconsistent with frame rates, on some routes getting rather fewer frames than I should be, etc.
    I could be wrong, but I recall Jamie mentioning last night that they were working on the FPS issue - it’s certainly something that’s happened before (WCML South) so hopefully something might surface in the near future.
    Might be useful to hear what sort of FPS everyone else is getting.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
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  7. rare_common_sense

    rare_common_sense Well-Known Member

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    Schnauzahpowahz trainbraint the FPS is likely due to the headlights on the M7, as was the case for the Hudson until a modded patch was applied which helped it quite a bit. I imagine a patch will follow soon to alleviate this issue.
     
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  8. trainbraint

    trainbraint Well-Known Member

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    Oh brilliant, looking forward to that.
     
  9. Schnauzahpowahz

    Schnauzahpowahz Well-Known Member

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    Its most definitely the trains themselves- while scenery is thick yes, its the unlikely culprit

    Made a video regarding the addon and started in an empty free roam - 60 fps locked. One 6 car train - 50fps give or take.
    Hopped in a QD, 14 (which is a lie, its usually worse than 14)
    Then a career scenario, same sub 14fps

    All at Hicksville


    The lights seem to have little to no effect aside the cab light.
    It's gotta be the trains scripting or sheer unnecessary detail i.e. passenger compartment etc
     
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  10. malikrthr

    malikrthr Well-Known Member

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    I just tried out a career scenario and quick drive scenario. This M7 has more controls than the M7A that came out for the Hudson line. This route definitely needs to be optimized. Departing Atlantic Terminal is like a slide show, less than 10fps and I have to hold the throttle/brake for it to switch instead of a single click of the keyboard. Hopefully the performance/fps issue gets sorted out with this route. I really do enjoy the scenery and high level of detail but performance wise, it does not run great it it's current state.
     
  11. Agent Qracle RUS

    Agent Qracle RUS Well-Known Member

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    DTG missed the opportunity to extend the line further, deep into the Long Island.. Just stupidly ported the TSW version to the old TS >_<

    P. S. Without M3, kek
     
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  12. trainbraint

    trainbraint Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, they said that they originally planned to extend it as far as Ronkonkoma, but cut it short due to development issues. Would've been nice to see it run out further, but it was built with extensions in mind so who knows what we might see.
     
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  13. atomicdanny

    atomicdanny Staff Member

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    The TSW version didn't come with an M3 either - that was an extra addon (also it wasn't "a port" as such, a lot of it had to be done from scratch, even the models had changes (while some are the same, it's not a copy paste conversion :) ).

    (also of course TS1 has Bolands Landing platforms, as well as St Albans and East Williston. (granted minor but still something the TSW version doesn't have :), oh and also the "vessel" at West Side Yard :) )
     
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  14. DTG Jamie

    DTG Jamie Staff Member

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    Hi all, we are aware of an issue with Frame Rate, its currently being worked on and will let you all know when we have a update for it.
     
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  15. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    Don't have it yet, but it's always a good idea to create AI rolling stock with simplified cab models - biggest impact on FPS is having to render detailed AI cabs.
     
  16. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Yep, although DTG have been doing detailed cabs for years without issue - the original Class 166 had one.
     
  17. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    I've also turned off shadow casting on all cab lights, which is normally diffuse light anyway unless there's a plain light bulb in the cab. Saves FPS and looks better.
     
  18. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I am getting fps in the upper 20s with highs of low 40s with my machine.
    Computer specifications
    Intel Core i9-9900 @ 3.60 GHz
    32.0 GB installed RAM
    1 TB SSD HD (All DTG fills are on this drive)
    4 TB drive
    Video
    NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070
    8 MB GDDR6 memory
     
  19. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    If your PC is significantly more powerful than mine and you're getting around 30fps...
    4ip5bj.jpg
     
  20. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting to note that I get lower fps on TSC than I do on TSW2. Even with these rates, TSC does not stutter as much as TSW2.
     
  21. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Add to the fun of driving this route, I just downloaded and set up the files to use my Rail Driver with the route. I just have a good time running the trains and a score of -11,333 does not take away from this.
     
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  22. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    That's because of the age of TS and the quirks that brings. TS' performance is largely dependant on the single-core performance of the CPU, whereas TSW leans on the GPU more. To be honest I'm quite surprised there hasn't been a Gentlemen Of The Row-style optimisation mod for TS yet. I can think of a number of ways to improve the performance of TS but they have never really been implemented. Modern routes seem to be an issue mainly, particularly in built-up areas - no wonder LIRR has bad framerates.
     
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  23. brummie

    brummie Active Member

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    Hi Sharon,
    You're not the only one getting scores like that LOL. So far have completed two scenarios and had mega minus scores but enjoying this route immensely! Seriously thinking of disabling career scoring when playing this route.

    Edit: Should have mentioned now I'm posting to this thread, I'm getting on average 20 fps running this route. I had one scare at first in that I couldn't get the headlights to show they were on but fixed it by enabling the 'Headlight Flares' from settings.

    My specs are, i7 - 3770 @ 3.4 GHz, GTX 1060 3Gb, 16 Gb ram.

    Have a good one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2022
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  24. Schnauzahpowahz

    Schnauzahpowahz Well-Known Member

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    All these "acceptable" fps numbers are well and good from the minority of you - whats your in game aliasing settings at?
    Thats the main factor, you should be able to run atleast 2x2 supersampling this day and age but ive had to turn mine way down to get any frames. Which then looks like complete garbage \o/
     
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  25. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Developer

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    I've done a lot of tweaks to try and alleviate these issues. It helps, but the FPS is still terrible in certain situations. Might be lengthy, but I'll share my whole setup with you (currently on the 4K TV, not the ultrawide monitor at my work desk).

    CPU: i7-12700K, all cores at 4.8GHz
    GPU: RTX 3080Ti, core at 1845MHz, memory at 10000MHz effective clock (GDDR6X)
    RAM: DDR4 3600MHz CL18
    Storage consists of various M.2 NVMe SSDs (i think the game is running off of a Seagate FireCuda 520)

    Here are the in game settings.

    1settings.jpg

    I use two mods. The first one modifies the DirectX9 DLLs so that they convert to the Vulkan rendering pipeline, which can help in CPU bound situations like this game. It didn't help tremendously for me...maybe 5 or so frames (your mileage may vary). Here is the Github link to that project: GitHub - doitsujin/dxvk: Vulkan-based implementation of D3D9, D3D10 and D3D11 for Linux / Wine. You basically just download the latest release build, extract it, and copy everything from the x64 folder into the root of your Train Simulator installation where your Railworks64.exe resides. In my case that's: L:\Steam\steamapps\common\RailWorks

    Next, I install the no FXAA mod. This completely eliminates FXAA (the blurry full screen anti aliasing garbage) and results in a crisp and clean image. You can get it here and instructions for installing it are in the included readme file. Mod - No FXAA for TS2020 : trainsim (reddit.com)

    I use a program called Process Lasso (amazing piece of software, been using it for years) to manually force Train Simulator to use specific CPU cores on my processor. I have an Intel Alder Lake CPU and am on Windows 11, so I don't want the game utilizing the E-Cores, just my strongest two P-Cores. If you end up downloading it, you can set per-process CPU affinity that persists across restarts which is super useful. It also comes with a custom power plan that turns off CPU core parking when certain applications (such as Railworks64.exe) are running.

    Next I force the refresh rate to the maximum by editing the config_fullscreen.txt file in the Railworks folder. Change the line <mGfxRefreshRate>120</mGfxRefreshRate> to match your monitor's maximum refresh rate and save. This file will be overwritten if you ever decide to verify game files in Steam, so keep that in mind.

    You don't have to make any modifications at a driver level if you don't want to (nVidia Control Panel, etc). The only things I really do is set an FPS cap of 60 and set Low Latency Mode to Ultra.

    I always recommend using the 64-bit version of the game. Nowadays it doesn't have any drawbacks when compared to the 32-bit. It used to be buggy but I've had a good experience with it.

    For the avid overclockers and tweakers out there that have an Intel processor and a supported motherboard/BIOS, you can use Intel Extreme Tuning Utility (XTU) to adjust frequency/voltage on a per-core basis. The cores you allocate solely for Train Simulator can be boosted higher to get even more performance. I was playing around with having the two P-cores for the game running at 5GHz while everything else was at 4.8GHz. It worked, but I have some more tweaking to do with the voltages on those cores. Something to consider if you're trying to squeeze every last frame out of this game. I don't know if there's an AMD-specific version of that software that has similar functionality. All cores were at 4.8GHz for the below benchmarks.

    Time for a couple benchmarks! I'll try to limit it to things that'll stay constant between our setups. I also removed the FPS cap temporarily just in case it goes past 60 (it never did). I use MSI Afterburner with the Rivatuner Statistics Server to output my hardware statistics.

    1) Loading into Saturday Stakes and not moving the camera. Bounces between 55 and 58fps.
    2saturdaystakes.jpg

    2) Loading into Brooklyn Baller and not moving the camera. Stays between 49 and 50fps.
    3brooklynballer.jpg

    3) Loading up a quick drive in an 8-car M7 from Penn Station to Jamaica and not moving the camera. Spring, cloudy, start time 10:30am. Stays between 36 and 38fps.
    4quickdrive.jpg

    4) Loading up a quick drive in an 8-car M7 from Jamaica to Penn Station and not moving the camera. Spring, cloudy, start time 10:30am. Stays between 27 and 30fps. This is by far the worst offender.
    5quickdrive2.jpg

    The conclusion is that the game is almost always limited by the CPU. It's not the fault of the hardware, it's that the game is single-threaded and doesn't really take advantage of multiple cores. The quick drive in Jamaica demonstrates this really well because the GPU usage is around 50%, meaning that the CPU is the bottleneck in the situation. I'm hopeful that at least some core changes will come in the future to make more use of the CPU, but I'm not holding my breath.

    Hopefully this helps! Hit me up with any questions. Might be worth making a dedicated thread for this...yeah let me know.
     
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  26. brummie

    brummie Active Member

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    As I mentioned in my earlier post regards my average fps of around 20, just did a quick drive from New York Penn and I had 14 fps all the way out and after a few miles I came out, wasn't nice.
     
  27. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    One thing I've noticed, the manual is not included in the installation (nothing added to RailWorks\Manuals\EN\).

    It's viewable online though via Steam Store page. I've downloaded it from there and put it in my manuals folder.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2022
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  28. brummie

    brummie Active Member

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    Yeah, happening a few times now with new routes. Had to get mine from the Steam store page too as I couldn't find it in the installation.
     
  29. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Going back to the fps conversation. I decided, since I had my RailDriver going, to play some in the Hanover Sub. Was seeing rates as low as 100 but up to the upper 150s, so will go back and run some more in Long Island and see what they are.
     
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  30. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    My monitors are limited to 59Hz so I have set a framerate cap for 59 in the launch options (and in other games I set it to 60 or 59 where possible); the game reports 58 most of the time but that doesn't matter really. Generally I find older routes run significantly better. As a general rule (but not all-encompassing) everything from the original Chatham Main Line onwards has low FPS for me. I expect LODs have something to do with it because the framerate changes a lot based on the draw distance set in the settings. Currently it's one below the maximum value and with that there is noticeable pop-in so it's not ideal. There is not much hope of me running LIRR at a playable framerate, as it is all in urban areas and the models are very high quality for TS.
     
  31. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    Not a big thing, but I thought I'd mention. Small texture error on the M7.

    33.png
     
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  32. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Just ran another scenario on Long Island and noted the frame rates. On the main line was between 40 - 50 fps and in Penn Station was around 30. Though I do wish that we get some scenarios done in the daylight. Have never understood why DTG like the dark.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2022
  33. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    For my part, I have had no issues with playing the route, The biggest drag is the Jamaica area, but also having too many trains at a time can also lag it elsewhere. I have had two apparent memory errors on the route, one as I went for a shot entering the tunnel to Penn.

    Provided you stay in the cab, it is often quite fine.
     
  34. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    Confirmed. I have 20 to 40 FPS and the Jamaica drop - playing this on my "vintage" i7-870 4x2.93Ghz / GTX1050Ti on Windows 7 (no SSAO, all settings maxed, except for view distance 66% and Shadows 66%). Which is ok, certainly, removing the detailed cab+pax interior from AI trains and maybe some LOD modifications could do good, but they're working on it.

    Really like the route, a lot of love went into that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2022
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  35. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    cActUsjUiCe, is it then required to rename the modified D3D9.dll to D3D9_26.dll so RailWorks64.exe is using it?
     
  36. cActUsjUiCe

    cActUsjUiCe Developer

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    I didn't have to do that, no. To confirm it's using Vulkan, you can view the FPS with a combination of MSI Afterburner and Rivatuner Statistics Server. That'll show you the current renderer. See my screenshots and look top left.

    If that doesnt work then probably delete any existing directx dll files and then install the mod
     
  37. torfmeister

    torfmeister Guest

    I'll just rename the existing one to .bak and see what happens. Thanks for your helpful posts.
     
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  38. wellington

    wellington Active Member

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    I love TSC 2023 because get good FPS on all routes. :o

    Left is TSC 2023 / Right is TSW 3
    (Long Island Rail Road: New York - Hicksville Route)

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The comparison is on the same stretch of Jamaica in both, where it requires more objects rendering.

    For those who like to watch TSC 2023 slides, it's right. :love:
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2023
  39. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    LIRR in TS is one of the worst performing routes in the entire game, caused largely by shadow casting (and more detailed scenery than the TSW version, which is among the worst in the game). However it really isn't good for comparing overall TSW vs TS performance as it is a true oddball route.

    Also, excellent sarcasm.
     
  40. wellington

    wellington Active Member

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    Doomotron, have more routes problematic with low FPS on TSC, the problem is that people are afraid to express themselves, but just run in mode slides and it's beautiful. It would be nice to do more of these route comparisons with TSC vs TSW. The real problem is the TSC mechanism which is very old and without native DX12 for new cards it is unplayable. All routes from TSW I play perfectly without any problems, it's beautiful to look at, now in TSC it's Friday the 13th.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2023
  41. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    If a majority of the TS routes you play are performing poorly it's your problem. TS runs fine for me and many others.
     
  42. wellington

    wellington Active Member

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    Last edited: May 7, 2023
  43. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I'll assume you have little experience in TS or with the community, or are being intentionally obtuse, perhaps a troll. If there was a large-scale issue with Train Simulator's performance, it wouldn't be getting roughly double the amount of players on PC. Also the suggestion that Train Simulator players universally don't talk about poor performance for some reason is laughable.

    upload_2023-5-7_3-14-3.png
    upload_2023-5-7_3-14-22.png

    I think Wellington's for our ignore lists chaps.
     
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  44. wellington

    wellington Active Member

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    Correct comparison ... https://steamdb.info/charts/?compare=24010,530070,1282590,1944790
    And TSW games (2020 / 2) were also sold on Epic Games and Microsoft Store, TSW 3 is currently being sold on Epic Games and Microsoft Store as well, not just Steam.



    What I love the most are Youtubers making memes about this game. :love:

    But all is not lost, I hope that this game is rewritten in native DX12 and that way we will have a Train Simulator Classic of the level it deserves, it would be a dream. :cool:
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2023
  45. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    The current one is experimental. Whether it can be improved or whether they give up on the experiment remains to be seen.
     
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  46. wellington

    wellington Active Member

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    I'm able to simulate the scenarios for this route removing all Static and AI Trains, thus get better frame performance.

    Install process: Extract the LIRRNoAITrainsScenarios.zip file directly into the route path. (00000104-0000-0000-0000-000000002023).

    Uninstall process: Just remove the Scenarios folder directly into the route path. (00000104-0000-0000-0000-000000002023).

    Only the 7 career scenarios had all Static and AI trains removed.

    [01] Summer of Hell
    [02] Hempstead 7's
    [03] On the Clock [Part 1]
    [04] On the Clock [Part 2]
    [05] Brooklyn Baller
    [06] Too Early for Work
    [07] Saturday Stakes

    Although, I realize that there are still issues in the developer developed scenarios. Well, when I generate a new scenario, the frames go up to 50 frames and are stabilized, after adding a simple convoy it drops to around 40 frames..
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 18, 2023
  47. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, don't try a Quick Drive. I think there have always been issues with the M7. No word on using just M3s.
     
  48. malikrthr

    malikrthr Well-Known Member

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    I am confident TSC will go in a better direction and be improved over time regarding stability and performance. Currently it seems older routes work best in 32 bit mode while newer routes with dense detail and scenery run better in 64 bit mode without crashing (except for LIRR which runs without crashing in 32 bit mode). I hope there are further updates to the LIRR route as issues from release have not been fully fixed it seems.
     
  49. wellington

    wellington Active Member

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    LIRR M3 has the same rendering issues as LIRR M7.
    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/tsc-lirr-m3-available-now.63301/

    For me to have a better conclusion, I decided to replace all LIRR M7 trains with LIRR M3 in all scenarios:
    [01] Summer of Hell
    [02] Hempstead 7's
    [03] On the Clock [Part 1]
    [04] On the Clock [Part 2]
    [05] Brooklyn Baller
    [06] Too early for work
    [07] Saturday bets

    The same thing from fraps down. The Developers could do an individual rendering for the Static and AI Trains without details, just a bubble and that's it solved.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2023
  50. wellington

    wellington Active Member

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    I still wasn't satisfied with my tests as I want to have all static and AI trains on the route in these scenarios, so I came up with a brilliant idea to make sure it really is an issue related to the LIRR M7 and M3 trains causing the fraps down, so I exchanged all sets of these trains for the Class 375 from the developer RSC then keeping the all static trains and AI. Guess the end result? This is perfect.

    Class 375 utilized in Long Island Rail Road with unbelievable fraps, the route came to life.
    [​IMG]

    Fraps may drop at some points, but this is due to regions with more urbanization, which is the case of Jamaica, for example.

    Final conclusion, something in the LIRR M7 and M3 trains is really not optimized, I still haven't figured out what it is, if it's textures, lights, simulation scripts or the whole poorly optimized set.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2023
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