Today's Kassel-würzburg Stream

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by solicitr, Aug 18, 2022.

  1. DTG Alex

    DTG Alex Community Manager Staff Member

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    The team has been made aware again (if they didn't know about it already) and we'll update on possible fixes when we can.
     
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  2. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    The flash on entering tunnels is a difficult one, as I understand it it's an unreal issue related to transitioning between the outside dynamic lighting and the inside baked static lighting which causes unreal to momentarily blow out the "reflection capture".

    We are looking at options but I can't promise a fix before launch as we simply don't know what the fix is right now.

    The flash going in and the flare at the other end though are not faked, the flash is as described, the flare coming out is eye adaption returning to bright lights with a wide open iris as expected.

    There has been a fix to the entry of tunnels where they seem to settle into a foggy stat that fades down to dark - that's now gone in our test builds so some improvements still under way at least.

    We're listening to all your feedback :)

    Thanks very much and glad you enjoyed the stream :)

    Matt.
     
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  3. nepclassof84

    nepclassof84 Well-Known Member

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    Some observations from the stream.
    1 - Please slow down the clicks and camera rotations. It made my head spin. That said Lukas did a fine job.
    2 - I really was digging the route. Plus the lighting and clouds make the game look better. Youtube was a little wonky but I'm sure it'll look better on my console.
    3 - I'm starting to dig the new UI. I was initially concerned that choosing a service by route wasn't going to be there. Now that I saw it I'm digging the UI alot now.
    4 - I hope leaving the cab at 250kph to do a walkabout on the train is not a prototypical practice by real ICE drivers. :)
    5 - I'm not sure if this was addressed or not with the new lighting but I was hoping for headlights at night, especially high beams to be brighter. Night time services are a little tough unless you're in a lit location because the headlight is dim. The prototype bright headlights light everything much stronger.
    6 - I liked dynamic weather.
    7 - The UI really needs to have the number of services listed.
    8 - I wasn't really sure what the new messages on the UI was because the frame rate was covering them. Would someone in a future stream explain them.
    9 - I assume changes to track speed restrictions was disabled by setting on the hud and not removed.
    10 - It was a little tough watching Lukas struggle to get the train moving. It would have been easier and faster to reload his latest game save. (before anyone says it .... yes I know that's the point of the comment)
     
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  4. nepclassof84

    nepclassof84 Well-Known Member

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    Caveat ... I noticed y'all said the services were different for the ICE1 and ICE3 I'm glad you showed a glimpse of them. You also mentioned the different freight engines had different services. I would have like to have seen a glimpse of that too.
     
  5. DTG Alex

    DTG Alex Community Manager Staff Member

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  6. Task

    Task Well-Known Member

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    How is it possible then that some tunnels (not many but there were a few in the preview) work as expected and some have the bright flash?
     
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  7. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    No idea, part of the investigation being done. If/when I get answers, I will be happy to share them as always.

    Matt.
     
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  8. juliplus#6089

    juliplus#6089 Active Member

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    Passengers:
    Due to performance restraints, we are limited to 200 passengers across any given station, and going above this would cause drastic negative effects to performance. Now 200 does sound like alot, but over some of the larger stations this can spread out quickly. We have added logic to prioritise passengers on trains, but to add realism we also increased the volume of trains at stations so the passengers ended up being more spread out anyway

    So does that mean ghost trains like yesterday? :(
     
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  9. anarchy99

    anarchy99 Well-Known Member

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    Some work as expected? Every tunnel entry during the first 3 seconds looks dreadful. On a route with this many tunnels it's enough for me to make up my mind not to purchase. Only reason I would like to upgrade to TSW3 is for the new menu/UI and dynamic weather, otherwise may as well stick with TSW2 as I do not see any significant changes. The map and the HUD (bar a few new PZB elements) are exactly the same. New game? Sorry to be negative team DTG.
     
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  10. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    DTG Alex

    Can TSW3 do one train overtaking another one like in real life?
    In real life a freight train will move to the side so an ICE can pass.

    Is this possible in TSW3 or are we stuck with the unrealistic stuck behind a freight train for half an hour with constatant LZB speed reductions?
     
  11. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Tunnel entry looks really bad same as the exit with the "fog/weather" issue.
    With so many tunnels thats a really bad thing.
     
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  12. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    There was so much talk about all the wonderful things that can now be done with passengers when Rush Hour was in development, like numbers, diversity, dioramas etc. Where has all that gone?

    Watching the stream yesterday, with the virtually empty trains and sparsely populated platforms, it felt like we were back pre- Rush Hour.

    And, as for the excuse of " performance constraints ", perhaps that could be explained in terms of TSW3 rather than its predecessor.
     
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  13. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Lets face it. As long as DTG stays with this engine for their TSW franchise we will not see most of these issues fixed (sound/performacne/no seasons in scenario planer/almost no passengers/lighting issues/red signal bugs/save issues...)
     
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  14. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Yes there's looped freight trains to let other trains pass. One of the scenarios you get looped at every conceivable opportunity to let one or more get by you (artificially inflated, storyline explains why, makes for a fun run actually imho :) ) - it also has you wrong line running for a bit to let a couple more get by you (so overtaking, not just looping).
     
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  15. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks and for phase II why not merge Kassel Würzburg and Main Spessart Bahn using the Connector Line. Based on the Nightjet time table The Duisburg Düsseldorf from Amsterdam and Brussels Midi Aachen Hbf which are joined at Köln Hbf takes 40 minutes to reach Würzburg hbf from Asschaffenburg Hbf 02:01 trip. On the Stream one possible reply by a user as the mastery rewards is the Russian 8th army rolling through the Fulda Gap.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2022
  16. 2martens

    2martens Well-Known Member

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    Most likely it means exactly that. In a single second class ICE 1 passenger car, you can easily fit more than 100 people. The train has more than 10 cars. Every ICE 1 even half full would be some 500 to 600 passengers. On stations like Fulda (some trains divert to Frankfurt) or Kassel you can have more than 100 passengers exiting a single ICE 1 and changing onto other trains or leaving the station. Now assume that you have two ICE 1 at the same time in Fulda, both with open doors. That's already more than 200 people just exiting, add those entering.

    In Kassel-Würzburg we only have three real stations (one rural station that you can theoretically reach but without much importance). Maybe it would be possible to handle that many passengers for a high end pc. But I assume that the system works globally and is not configured per route/station. In that case, they need a sane amount that works across all rush hour routes.

    Take London Brighton with many stations but relatively short platforms. If you have more than 200 passengers there per station, you can easily reach way more than 5,000 passengers in the entire route.

    My open question is if the 200 applies to inital passengers per station so in Kassel-Würzburg there are only 600 (-800) passengers on the entire route OR if that is only the upper limit per station at any given point but the passengers on trains come on top of that?

    To clarify, is overtaking/looping part of timetable as well?
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2022
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  17. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    The 200 limit is at any given moment. I don't think it applies to the number of people seated though - so once seated they come off the tally and allow another character to spawn.

    We do have some logic to optimise passengers to only go onto platforms where trains are due - but the team have added tons of AI traffic which means most platforms are busy, so you're still trying to spread the passengers around.

    For sure, things were a lot quieter than I was expecting on the Passenger front so certainly gonig to be getting the team to do some double checking - but that 200 limit is a lot lower than you'd ideally want for a huge station regardless.
     
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  18. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Yes looping is part of the timetable I believe. Lukas can confirm that.
     
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  19. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    The route looked alright. Same looking graphics with some beta features like eye adaptation for the tunnel's. Still too bright looking. Perhaps ray tracing could fix it.

    Not encouraging hearing about not knowing performance for Gen 8 when your still supporting it.

    I thought there was going to be new Ingame ui during that countdown live stream and the draw distance is very off-putting and surely on seriesX , PS5 and PC could of been be reworked and extended.
     
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  20. DTG Lukas

    DTG Lukas Developer Staff Member

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    The Fog at the tunnel entry is something we have actually resolved today. We’re working on the rest, but can’t promise what else will be fixed.
     
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  21. anarchy99

    anarchy99 Well-Known Member

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    Please can a short clip demonstrating this resolution be shared? I may be more inclined to pre-order the game after viewing.
     
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  22. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Thats a good point, while freight trains in SKA run 160kmh down the line. So i hope they actually found a solution to get a real speed behaviour for freight services, even if the linespeed is 280kmh.
     
  23. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    Guys, you're trying to sell a product here. One that was received with some controversy within the community. That you cannot put enough effor to your presentation of the product, properly prepare the stream (no dev build, proper streaming setup-up) to show your product in the best light possible, doesn't really inspire confidence and trust into the product itself...
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2022
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  24. grdaniel48

    grdaniel48 Well-Known Member

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    IDEA:
    I do not know if this be possible..., but an idea about to solve this what about to include "fixed" passengers inside the trains?
    I mean instead of having the moving ones, boarding and leaving the train, other ones with simpler 3d design - so less impact on performance -, but we can see the trains not almost completely empty.
    Mainly from outside! Which I believe it is most of the time when we see them!

    Also "digital" DB train company will be much more profitable, comparing with almost empty trains! ;)
     
  25. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    I hope so :) I'd heard it mentioned somewhere I think and was already imagining my freight train getting moved rudely and frequently out of the way so that the flashy ICE peeps can stay on schedule :)

    iirc Lukas said last night that delays at red lights of up to 10 minutes were common on services for the DB BR 185.2
     
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  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    One of the nicer if underappreciated aspects of HRR is that freight services are full of lengthy holds while passenger traffic rolls by.
     
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  27. 2martens

    2martens Well-Known Member

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    If looping is in timetable (it sounds like it is) then that means the dispatcher is finally able to do it dynamically without bespoke settings. That would mean, it can detect an approaching train with higher priority and then directs you onto the loop. If that is indeed the case, it should be possible to add priority configuration to scenario planner at some time so that we can recreate such situations for ourselves.
     
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  28. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    So wait. Is the AI/Timetable smart enough to move a freight train out of the way when the player is driving an ICE?
    Or is it only working then the signals force you into being overtaken when the player is the one driving a freight train?

    TrainSim-Matt
    Could you please explain why we still get no seasons in scenario planer in TSW3?
    Why are we stuck with summer? Why is this "hardcoded" in TSW when every other game with such an editor even back in the '90s let the player choose season and weather?
     
  29. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It's hard-coded. The dispatcher isn't capable of dynamic routing.
     
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  30. Felix Costa

    Felix Costa Member

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    I'm looking forward to try TSW3. Besides the issues about lighting, stuttering, etc.... I enjoy TSW2 a lot.
    For me it's more like driving a Train as close as possible to real life even tough I've never drive a train in real life.

    One thing that can't keep up is bugged signalling/control system, besides this, I can live with visual glitches.

    Dynamic weather seems to be game changing to me!

    A dynamic routing capable dispatcher would be haven to me. This would bring a lot of possibility to the game. Hope DTG bring this to life someday.
     
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  31. Dinger75

    Dinger75 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry the the logic of passengers is actually illogical. Its not just this route but every route with Rush Hour passengers. Some examples.

    Eastbourne to Brighton. If you are lucky your train will spawn with the train pretty full. However, they will pretty much all get off by Berwick. This is funny to see when you see 100 passengers get off at Berwick when the place only has a population of 400. Brighton though only has about a dozen passengers get off the train even though its population is nearly 300k. A pretty empty train between Berwick and Brighton, not to mention most player trains on rush hour routes happens way too often

    Another bit of broken logic was actually introduced recently in the patch that was supposed to improve passengers. A group of passengers probably up to a dozen will just stand on the platform with the players train in front of them and do nothing. However, its easy to see they were supposed to board because as soon as you close the passenger doors, they all move off like they just missed the train

    Rush hour passengers that are not in a rush to go anywhere is simply not good enough
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
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  32. orb

    orb Well-Known Member

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    Well, there was no Sifa turned on in the stream, which would rather stop the real drivers doing so.
     
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  33. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for addressing the issue. Just that the explanation reads...weird? Becasue for me it reads that just now you're evaluating your options...but that cannot be true, right?

    You've stated that TSW3 has been in the works for +- a year. So more than a year ago you have settled on lightingto be one of the main selling points for TSW 3. You had to know at that time that you have issues with tunnel transitions, be it flashes, lighting"shine" throught tunnels (particularly on SEHS), or weather transitions being totally broken when entering/exiting tunnel. All these issues fall under "lighting" umbrella, and it is not unreasonable for the community to expect that alteast some of these issues to be fixed... Especially if you're selling it as a new product. And yet, from the stream it looks like none of these issues were fixed...

    Not only that, but you have, willingly, choosen a route with 20tunnels to be a flagship demonstrator for this new lighting....And made tunnel transitions (eye adaptation) as one of your main talking points...
    Guys... I enjoy your products, I have more than 700hours in TSW2, and have been playing TSC since Railworks 2.... but this thing has "mismanagement" written all over it...
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
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  34. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Not only did these issues not get fixed (im pretty sure light still shines through the roof of locos) but new ones like the bright white ground ("wet") are introduced...not to mention the "rain on windshield" efects still looks like straight out of some 2001 xbox game...a tragedy...oh, but at least the performance is going to be equally worse then in TSW2.
     
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  35. 2martens

    2martens Well-Known Member

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    I guess you mean lighting and not lightning, right? The latter happens with thunderstorms, the first refers to the practice of setting lights in a scene.

    They are probably aware of the issue a bit longer than publicly commented. But the route was in development for a while, as were the core features. The combination of both likely didn't finish until recently. Only then this effect likely became visible.
     
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  36. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    Yep, thanks for the correction :)
     
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  37. Does it have anything to do with resolutions I wonder? For example 4k has a much larger colour spectrum than 1440 and 1080. If I play on a 4k display I can see more at night whereas playing on a 1080 display I can't see anything.

    If dtg design a route for 4k resolutions then playing on lower resolutions is gonna be missing quite a lot of colour shades?
     
  38. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    It's not a 4K thing, no. You don't design routes for 1080p or 4k or other resolutions, and we don't direcly support HDR yet so it's not a colour range issue.

    So the work lukas and the team have done on the fog fade at the start of tunnels has actually already greatly reduced this, but they are continuing to review for other options.

    Matt.
     
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  39. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Just wanted to also update on the LZB braking that Lukas experienced on the stream.

    This was indeed a bug, due to that bug it momentarily caused the system to look behind the train for speeds instead of in front hence it dropped to 0 and this caused the emergency brake to come on - along with this, the script broke in such a way that no further pzb or lzb behaviour happened, which is why you then didn't see the 500hz go off.

    Lukas has driven this a lot and unfortunately all the spiciest bugs, all the "wait, thats really never happened even once before?" bugs show up when you're in front of a big audience!

    Happy to say Lukas found and fixed it immediately after the stream and added extra protections in the code in case anything similar should happen in future.

    Matt.
     
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  40. Ok thanks. It was just a thought.

    I've not watched any tsw3 gameplay streams, I'm waiting for the release. Looking forward to sehs.

    Thanks.
     
  41. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I'm enjoying SEHS a lot - but I should probably do more than just drive the 465 from Dartford to Faversham (I love the 465, and a 60 minute run in it is lovely :) ). It's also *really* odd having played SEHS so much in the past, to now arrive at Ebbsfleet and NOT go up the viaduct and instead go around it into the lower platforms... i'm sure i'll get used to it :) Good to give the 395 a nice thrash now though :)

    Matt.
     
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  42. The 465 run to to dartford is first on my to to list. It's undoubtedly one of the most awesome trains in tsw in my opinion. Looking forward to some 395 runs to Ashford too and the tgv runs if I understood it right and we can drive these.

    Thanks.
     
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  43. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Lukas. I enjoyed the stream and I am looking forward to some LZB action on late night freight runs!
    A lovey 60 minutes indeed. I can’t wait to experience the 465 in the new timetable. I am also pumped about the extended Javelin runs as welll. I need to tune up my TVM skills!
     
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  44. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Still doesn't make up for not getting Preston to Carlisle...
     
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  45. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    What rolling stock then want to go 155 mph with C Apt then Class 370 Tap changer 83 86 87 locomotives. Present Day Class 70 diesel 92 electric 397 390.
     
  46. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Classic AC 81 to 87 though the 84's went quite early. However a fair amount of diesel haulage also took place under the wires, mainly freight though there seemed to be more effort to diagram electric traction under the wires as much as possible than in more latter days.
     
  47. hibiki

    hibiki Well-Known Member

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    You could add 104/108s between Preston and Lancaster/Carnforth. *hint hint*
     
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  48. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the update Matt. Feel better knowing that the team could fix the problem with LZB that also caused PZB to fail.
    This was the only issue that I think would stop me from enjoying this route.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
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  49. 2martens

    2martens Well-Known Member

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    I have just driven on SEHS (TSW2 obviously) and the blueish light on entering tunnels is present there too. The speed is lower and the brightness of the blueish light lower so it is not as disturbing but it is there. This leads me to the conclusion that the new lighting system (aka true to life lumen/lux values of the existing light sources) has nothing to do with it and it has rather to do with (like Matt mentioned, if I remember correctly) the switch between dynamic lighting outside the tunnel and baked lighting inside.
     
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  50. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    Very glad to hear Lukas took care of that LZB bug immediately! Like a football player who lost the ball in midfield and then ran back towards the box for a decent tackle ;)

    As everything of the other feedback I could have contributed was already mentioned here or in one of the other threads I'd like to go a bit more into detail regarding the multiple versions of the same train again.

    I stumbled upon it because the first clear issue I spotted during the stream was the Dosto cab car in Fulda with full beam headlights - something that somehow got introduced with DCZ back then and something that falls under the 'highly unneccessary, very easy to avoid' category.
    I mean you can see an ICE with hardly any passengers on it or a broken PIS system on a station - not so long ago it was more common for those to be broken than working IRL anyway ;) - but full beam headlights are about as common as spotting Nessie and Bigfoot having a cup of tea together while watching a other team than Bayern Munich becoming german football champions. ;)
    And in comparison to lighting, passenger behaviour, dispatcher programming or even the LZB one this should quite easily be altered. Yes it probably would need to be done a few times but it would definetely be a satisfying result afterwards... :)

    Okay, back to the multiple versions: I just wanted to state that I would have no problems living with not 100% accurate timetables if the train I'm driving is instead the one I was actually looking for and most likely (because of the lesser versions to take care for) of a higher quality. If that's the main reason not to do it - please don't hesitate! :) (although I have a feeling there is more to it)

    Another thing which I wanted to Highlight are the new HUD informations which came up esp. during startup. I really liked those ('free to release PZB'), they could provide new (and maybe even experienced) players very very helpful information - like 'the doors are open, you can't move' (which was basically shown in the stream)! I'm curious if those will be working on other trains as well - I'm thinking of the MU setup for american diesels here where I still always use a forum screenshot. Again, this is something which might be a matter of course for experienced players but for newcomers a really good guideline. And if this provides some of them to stay a bit longer with TSW and buy some DLCs it was very much worth the investment... :)
     

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