Do We Really Need Another Open Letter To Dtg? Number 4 Or 5? Come On Team Dtg?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by chieflongshin, Oct 16, 2022.

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  1. andyscotland

    andyscotland Well-Known Member

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    My personal favourite is saving a game mid journey, coming back to it at a station, pulling off and having no speedo (or hud) until I stop at the next station and it rights itself I've not played tsw2 to compare it but I'm surprised that in ps4 it can be laggy at times.
     
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  2. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Keep forgetting that the game is no picnic on the consoles, like having to delete routes and all that. That would drive me potty, hope it gets fixed.
     
  3. andyscotland

    andyscotland Well-Known Member

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    Console train sims is the future though for sure, I have openbve on the computer and the process of installing routes is a ballache!!
     
  4. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I've just updated my PC so hope not! :( lol I know what you mean, I think bot the consoles and PC have certain games they play better on. Strategy games imo work better on the PC and usually where downloads are concerned with games like Skyrim and Fallout 4. Even though the consoles have a wide range of mods available they do not come anywhere near to what the PC has.

    But then consoles do better in other areas. We're all gamers at heart.
     
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  5. andyscotland

    andyscotland Well-Known Member

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    I agree about mods on the pc, back in the day my pc version of GTA San Andreas had tesco expresses and BP garages
     
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  6. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    :| New DLC announced while the core remains a mess. I know they need to continuously generate income, but I have no idea who in their right mind would buy a new route for TSW3 while it's running like trash.
     
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  7. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    You are onto their ways then? :D
     
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  8. Redbus

    Redbus Well-Known Member

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    Out of the 7 supported consoles, deleting DLC to keep it under the 64gb limit is only necessary on one - the PS5. This however should soon(tm) be patched, hopefully before the next ice age. Overall playing TSW on console is a great experience, barring some outstanding issues as discussed in the forums. Believe it or not, when I had a PC I actually played TSW more on gen 9 console (gen 8 was admittedly not great).
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2022
  9. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    The "but" was referring to your comments below that. I agreed about a Q&A stream.

    We both are. I'm trying to be conscious of when I have no new point to make on something here and skipping those.

    Me: "But the more people you have, and the more complex a game is, the more problems will creep in."
    You quoted: "The more people you have the more complex the game is?"

    In short,

    Me: "2+3=5"
    You quoted: "2=3"

    I'm not saying you did it on purpose, just asking you to be careful when editing quotes.

    I've agreed with at least one thing you've said in every post in our conversation except the very first. In the spirit of the above comment, I submit that you might feel different if you looked for more than only negatives.

    I didn't mention mods because not every Bethesda game supports them--AFAIK, their only console games that do are Fallout 4 and Skyrim--but your metaphor is accurate for all of their game sales, mods or not.

    Allowing modding on TSW might help sales, can't see how it would hurt, but would it also add to support headaches? It's not like mods always play nice with the game or each other. The only assumption I can make is that DTG doesn't support TSW modding because the perceived gains in sales wouldn't make up for the perceived extra work that would be needed on their part. I can't remember what DTG has said directly.

    I didn't miss that point. I think you missed mine, which ironically is contained in your post: "the ability of".
    Hello Games' much smaller staff and much higher sales have meant much more profit to put toward fixes and free DLC, which has reflected in the ongoing sales, which fund more DLC, etc.

    Check this out, because it's pretty interesting:

    https://steamdb.info/app/275850/graphs/

    Click on Charts, go down to the second one on "Lifetime Concurrent Players on Steam", and look at the yellow "players" line. In between the major update spikes, the regular player activity is higher every time. That's why they can do it.

    If you need real-world numbers, they're available. Since British company financials are public, we can look at those. Latest filings posted are October 2020 for Hello Games and March 2021 for DTG (as Railsimulator.com).

    https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06663645/filing-history
    https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06751125/filing-history

    Just from this, we can see that Hello Games has a staff size of 37 compared to DTG's 157, Hello made an after-tax profit that year of approximately £8,011,000 pounds vs DTG's £3,643,407, and Hello has "Cash at bank and in hand" of £75,097,000 vs. DTG's £5,257,592.

    Another number of interest: Since DTG's games are about real-world simulation and Hello Games' games have nothing whatsoever to do with the real world, you get things like £1,293,051 in R&D expenses for DTG, which don't exist for Hello.

    Much bigger company, much bigger staff, much higher operating expenses, much higher development costs, completely unrelated games, and (I'm assuming here) a much lower realistic sales ceiling for train and fishing simulators vs a universe-spanning exploration/survival game, means no basis for comparison whatsoever. Find another studio of similar size that does a sim of similar complexity and does it demonstrably better, and then you'll have a point.

    I'm sure everyone would like DTG to be able to follow HG's example, but you'll have to come up with a way that could happen. Pretty sure DTG's braintrust would love that as well and have been thinking about it hard themselves.

    Nope. Did you miss the several patches for TSW2 that were released between Spirit of Steam/DTG going quiet and TSW3's release? Here's a refresher:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/tsw2-update-notes-30th-may-2022.55045/

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-2-update-9th-june-2022.55559/

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-2-update-notes-20th-june-2022.55844/

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-2-update-notes-27th-june-2022.56090/

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-2-update-notes-7th-july-2022.56364/

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-2-update-notes-18th-july-2022.56638/

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/train-sim-world-2-update-notes-2nd-august-2022.56961/

    Saying "people who spent loads of money on TSW2 got nowt" is plain untrue.

    Pointing out flaws isn't, and that wasn't where I said it. You're aware of that, and will remember these examples from this very conversation:

    Fact: Fewer roadmaps per month means fewer Q&A sessions.

    Opinion: More Q&A sessions would be good.

    Negative spin: "it is obvious that they wanted to limit feedback"; "They cower from live questions and cherry pick them as they don't like facing the problems people are facing."

    Where have I said I was happy? Also untrue. I've been responding to what I felt were unfair and inaccurate statements. I haven't bought TSW3 yet because I want it to be polished up first, and I want the derail bug and Pres. Crew updates to hit TSW2 first so I'm not incentivizing its abandonment. In other words, addressing certain issues in the game to make for a better experience.

    At any rate, this has deteriorated from the honest disagreement I expected to misquoting, context ignored when inconvenient, spin and untruths serving a negative agenda, and now an invitation to leave the forum rather than engage with facts? I'm done.
     
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  10. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting those Steam charts. Compare TSW2 and TSW3. It looks like TSW3's player base has already dropped off fast. Never a good idea to follow up a game that is nearly identical to its sequel with added bugs and terrible performance. Will be interesting to see whether DTG can recover from this.
     
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  11. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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    I noticed that too, but if you look at the first couple of months after TSW2's release, there was a also sharp dropoff there at the beginning, and then player numbers were about where TSW2+TSW3 are now. I don't know what DTG forecast, but if it were me, I would certainly want more growth than that, and fewer than roughly a third of TSWx players sticking with the older game.

    But I think it's way too early to worry about recovery. DTG is a multi-million pound company (this is where that matters), TSW3 has only been out slightly less than two months, and these are only Steam numbers--just one of seven systems, or rather two of fourteen systems. Lots unknown, lots of time for things to change. Hopefully the bugs people have been talking about are getting pounded as we speak, and TSW3 will be a different enough game in another two months that more people will shift over or pick it back up as the case may be.
     
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  12. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully the bugs people have been talking about are getting pounded as we speak, and TSW3 will be a different enough game in another two months that more people will shift over or pick it back up as the case may be.
    Oh we live in hope!
     
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  13. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    I guess we'll find out later today on the roadmap stream if anything is being worked on and whether there is any specific progress to report. I remember when they proudly announced they hired a director of quality assurance to focus the beta test team. I just wonder if said person understood that their job involved actually directing quality assurance. :|
     
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  14. Dustysideboard

    Dustysideboard Member

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    Since GWE Founders Edition was released on Xbox there has been bugs and issues that haven’t been addressed, I’ve not bought TSW3 as I’ve got a Series X which opens up more services on routes and TSW2 plays much better than it did in One X and I know the issues
     
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  15. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    I saw an update about derailment and startet a scenario Fully Fuelled on Sand Patch grade.

    And obvioulsy I derailed after 15 Min. after exiting Cumberland :D
    What a game :love:

    was driving at 7-8 mph instead of 15
     
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  16. phillip.good

    phillip.good Well-Known Member

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    I also tried the 12.15 freight service from Edge Hill this morning and, as I connected to the brakevans, BOOM whole lot flew off the tracks and landed on their sides..... so, derailments on SoS are sorted then..... NOT
     
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  17. breblimator

    breblimator Guest

    After what I read here, as well as based on my own observations - answering the question: yes, we need another open letter to DTG. For sure. BR o7
     
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  18. summersy

    summersy Active Member

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    I feel like maybe a lot of their issues could be solved by upping their quality control drastically before release, maybe stop getting so hyped up themselves that they have to announce it and just keep working on the game or dlc or whatever.
     
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  19. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, but what exactly did the other 5(?) letters achieve? Should I suppose that the bug issue situation would be even worse without these former letters? Hmmm, hard to imagine ...
     
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  20. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    The open letter from Mat_Jam_Ca received almost a hundred endorsements and led to a bunch of largely unfulfilled promises from DTG, including the so-called bug-fixing hiatus that never was.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2022
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  21. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    Right, the "hiatus to focus on bug fixing". I remember that one. As a result we got ...................... TSW3, waddaya know.

    Seriously: I think another open letter is a waste of time. I´m going to vote with my wallet. Not that it makes a huge difference, it just makes me feel a little less ............ sucker.
     
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  22. Calidore266

    Calidore266 Well-Known Member

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  23. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    I've just read the roadmap and its encouraging regarding the game optimization!
    The tool Self test seems to be interesting to find faster where/when the fps drops happen

    It is the first time since many years that I have the impression that DTG will finally take care of game optimization.
    now, let see what's gonna happen.

    Nice to see that BR187 will be improved
    Nice to see that TSG are coming with new stuff (and quality stuff normally)

    I hope RSSLO can also join them too for a further DLC

    I feel a bit better... but its only a roadmap :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2022
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  24. Pipe

    Pipe Well-Known Member

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    This surely would be an impressive collection of patch delivery. If it wasn´t for a really sad history trail of
    A) Patches that addressed only half the issue.
    B) Patches that didn´t work at all as intended.
    C) Patches that squash one bug, and give birth to three new ones. That´s my "favorite", because it leaves things broken which worked very well until then (and you paid for!).

    So much for "hiatus to focus on bug fixing".
     
  25. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad 'you're done' as it saves me the bother to read it.
     
  26. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    Looked at the roadmap just now (briefly), and saw very little about OUR game TSW2, other than improvements and fixes so it can go to TSW3. I'll have to dig deeper.
     
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  27. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    I tend to agree. I don't see this self testing tool to be a quick fix, but it does put DTG on the right track to getting the game optimized along all routes. Just a shame that this tool seems to have been discovered either late in the development of TSW3 or after it was released therefore the benefits were not realized at launch. Matt explained it quite well that there is an evolution to this tool. As it is now it's a snapshot at every kilometre or so, but eventually it will (hopefully) be able to check points in between as regardless if a specific place drops to 20 fps, as long as the route quickly fluctuates between even higher frames like 50 - 60 this introduces stuttering. I'll keep on TSW2 for now and hope for the best in the new year for TSW3. I really wish it were better than TSW2 right out the door hence my frustration, but we'll see what comes with these new tools at DTG's disposal.
     
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  28. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    yeah, all I seem to remember is JD saying they haven't forgotten the fixes for TSW2 but there is no time frame. For me that is another way of saying 'We 'aint doing it'.
     
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  29. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

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    The latest roadmap did say:
    But we shall see what happens.
     
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  30. grumypop51

    grumypop51 Well-Known Member

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    We won't be holding our breath!
     
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  31. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I will take the bug fix promises seriously when broken scenarios such as Chopper And Change on TVL or Depot 66 on Boston Sprinter get fixed. It's not good enough to delegate stuff off to Pres Crew for the vague possibility of a distant fix.
     
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  32. This auto test tool ain't gonna solve s***.

    I'm starting to see dtg in the same light as all the other multimillion pound companies, take your money and that's that.

    We were promised down time for fixes and what we got was tsw3! More f'd than tsw2.

    Sometimes dtg makes me more irate than a Italian taxi driver stuck behind two old priests in a skoda!
     
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  33. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    For the first time since many years I'm ready to give them a chance.
    Wait and see.
     
  34. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Think BCC will be the litmus test, or watershed. If it releases with bugs, missing scenery and broken Journey runs - especially if as rumoured with a £29.99 price tag - then regardless of their dominance of the train sim scene, it will be time to stop rushing to throw money at the company.
     
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  35. I hope your right.
     
  36. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I can't remember them saying before Xmas for some patches but then I did fall asleep for parts of the stream.
     
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  37. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    If you hadn't been paying very close attention, you could easily have missed the very, very brief comment about the TSW2 route patches. It was just a reference to the roadmap. No enthusiasm at all.

    To me it pointed to the diminishing importance that DTG attaches to these patches and the feeling that the plan is to wait until everybody loses interest.

    I may be wrong about this and I hope I am. I really want to see the fixes, in part because it's predictive of what will be done about bug fixes in the future for TSW3 routes.

    If the patches for BML, BPE, SFJ and OSD are done, why aren't they being released?
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2022
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  38. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, the auto-testing suite is to me the most optimistic development in quite a long time.
     
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  39. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I share your fears. They would love to bury TSW2 but can't yet.

    I hope you are right for everybody's sake and it is not just a money saving scheme.
     
  40. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, actually if it saves time and does an effective job as part of QA, that would be a good thing.

    And time is money. Nothing wrong with a company reducing costs, if it can.
     
  41. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Nothing wrong with that at all and would be most welcome if it improved the game. If quality goes up then it is a win, win. But if the quality does not improve or even goes down I think that is a different story no?
     
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  42. conniethunder

    conniethunder Well-Known Member

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    I've been biting my tongue at the prospect of new routes being priced at £29.99. As has been mentioned, I assumed the increased price with the standalone TSW3 routes was due to their increase in length (also noted by the .PAK size).
    However, https://store.steampowered.com/app/..._Lichfield__Bromsgrove__Redditch_Route_AddOn/ is priced for pre-order at £29.99 :(

    But, the pouring of alcohol into an open wound feeling (metaphorically speaking), is the fact that you can either buy the new Birmingham route for £29.99 OR, buy the base TSW3 game with the route for the exact same price!!

    DTG, what are you thinking? Surely the new route should be £24.99 (or less) ? :(
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
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  43. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    Well buying the starter pack only gives you that route and nothing more so it would be the same price.

    Also, dlc in tsc has been $39.99 for a while now so it's not surprising dtg would raise the prices. After all, they gotta pay their employees and their rent and face the increased costs of everything. Things are not going to get cheaper with everything going on. If it's too expensive, wait for a sale or something cuz that's really the only option
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
  44. conniethunder

    conniethunder Well-Known Member

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    Well, your point of needing to 'make more money' doesn't stand does it? Because they are effectively 'giving' away the base game for FREE.
     
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  45. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The cost of DLC hasn't really changed in at least a decade, very few other items are the same price they were in 2010. But apparently DTG are supposed to weather the storm that every other company is facing at the moment, every service and product my company uses has gone up. There is already a prediction in the UK that the jobless total will double over the next year and likely business' will go under. I am just glad I don't work for some of the posters on this forum!
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
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  46. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    The only problem I see with that if companies keep rising their prices in order 'to make a living' with people predicted to lose their jobs and tougher for the younger generations to get a job in the first place I wonder what are DTG's market? With the cost of living crisis we all face with these extremely high energy bills surely firms should act with caution before hiking prices, Disney is finding this out for instance.

    Companies have to make a profit but surely you have to take notice of the current climate people are in no? Saying that I'm tempted by the DLC as it comes with TSW3 free but I will wait for some reviews from posters like your good self before taking the plunge.
     
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  47. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Also very poor service, from which DTG should take some thought. Trying to watch The Walking Dead then Andor the other evening, the service was constantly dropping trying to blame our internet connection with the on screen message. Netflix and Amazon Prime working fine. So we now cancelled Disney +, not paying through the nose for mediocre product and the same goes for train sim stuff.
     
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  48. sergio volodstok

    sergio volodstok Active Member

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    I guess we can forget about any updates for Clinchfield. It's all about short term gains with DTG, release shiny new TSW3 and reel in the dough!

    Hah! You can't even maintain TSW2 to a optimal standard; how can you maintain TSW3, with its fancier clouds and weather? All you've done is introduced a new cash cow for the majority to eat up and make you some quick money; but in doing that you've brushed TSW2 under the rug! All I see in the articles about "TSW2" is just stuff about TSW3.

    You pulled a fast one, DTG, hope you enjoy your monetary gain while it lasts...
     
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  49. photonmonkey

    photonmonkey Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear so just saw the comments (yes I know late to the party) that the new Birmingham route is £30 as a stand alone pack, I had set aside £25 not realising they had hiked the prices for TSW3. Birmingham is my home town so was looking forward to this as a day one purchase but will now have to wait.

    As I am on PS4 TSW3 does not exactly bring much new to the table, other than the 3D cotton wool clouds and overly exposed lighting. The only upside is I will be saved from the pain of stumbling into any new bugs on the route, which inevitably there will be :(
     
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  50. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I noticed the other day, the SD40 engine sound still cuts out if you go to an external view, then back to the cab. Another long standing unfixed bug.

    It's not a good move, though there seems to be no shortage of willing acolytes ready to hand over their money, if you read some of the other threads on the topic. Not even a pre-order discount to sweeten the deal. DTG showing their EA lineage, for sure. Luckily I'm on PC/Steam so happy to wait for the inevitable > 40% off at some point next year in a sale.
     
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