Ny-trenton: Usa Content Is Still Severely Flawed

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by TripleJ814, Feb 9, 2023.

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  1. I find the issues to not be a big deal, and it’s fine the way everything is

    17.1%
  2. I find the issues to be ridiculous and DTG needs to address this

    76.5%
  3. I have a differing opinion - it would be nice if you could reply to the thread explaining why

    6.4%
  1. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    It’s happened with the TSW 3 Loco Bundle for sure, however that’s a bad example because that loco bundle only had reused trains + the RHTT stuff, meanwhile this has loads of new content.

    Personally I think they should’ve split the stream into two days instead of one.
     
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  2. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, to be honest I think they can preview all the US content in a 90-120 minute stream.
    It's a route, a loco, updates to a couple of routes and some liveries.

    That's about 20 minutes for each, plenty of time, I would say, to show each segment and answer what questions they feel like answering, which may not be many of the issues raised in this thread unfortunately.

    They may feel they've pretty much covered all the missing content with " sorry, but no ", so, unless they've changed something in the last few days, the Q&A parts will be very short.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2023
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  3. MAX1319

    MAX1319 Well-Known Member

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    Yea I guess I’m over thinking. 20 minutes each should be more than enough to check out all the content and catch any issues. Unlike the Glasgow route which was almost 2:30 hours long l. Or the SEHS which was just an extension but it managed to get its own stream. Or maybe the BML which got two streams alone…. Yea 20 minutes should do it.
     
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  4. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    I guess technically they could just show the Acela on NY-Trenton rather than Boston as well. Kill two birds with one stone
     
  5. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I will add that one aspect of the new route which I hope they do show, which they're usually reluctant to do, is the night lighting.

    It shouldn't be an issue on a largely urban route like Trenton, but then so was BCC and we all know what a graveyard that route is at night.
     
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  6. MAX1319

    MAX1319 Well-Known Member

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    I guess I was really looking foward the new signaling but with the amount of services the NEC NY-Trenton route is launching the signaling should not be a factor . All greens ahead.
     
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  7. StrikeEagle78

    StrikeEagle78 Well-Known Member

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    It's really not in their interest to show everything before the customer opens their wallet yet again. A few minutes here and there well curated to show the best angles should do it. Now go buy it! And then later in the week the inevitable apology and "we are committed to making it better" blah blah blah, rinse, repeat, on to the next route reveal in a few weeks time.
     
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  8. Jayhuncho

    Jayhuncho New Member

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    Okay so with all the issue brought up with the lack of LIRR (which is my biggest concern), lack of Morrisville yard, no CSX/Norfolk Southern freight dotted around sidings etc, I havnt seen much people talking about how there is 1 Acela train a day in each direction that stops at Trenton, pre covid as well. So how many full Acela services are we really getting? I’m not talking about a NYP - Newark (basically what I used to all day long back when NEC was the only us passenger route) or NYP - Metropark.
     
  9. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    Based on this post: Ny-trenton: Usa Content Is Still Severely Flawed | Page 3 | Dovetail Games Forums
    We're getting 32 Acela Services, plus 13 Deadheads to/from Sunnyside Yard. Unsure about stopping in Trenton. They could fictionalize the timetable a bit and have them all stop at Trenton
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2023
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  10. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Correct and in real life Sunnyside yards has ALP-46A 4629-4664 PRR paint 4636 with 10-12 MLV I-II for NEC use 6 MLV I-II RVL or MoBo NY Penn Trips. Post 2023 RVL trains in sunnyside yards are going to be 6 MLV I-III without the power car which is needed on M&E Midtown Direct trips NEC NJCL Long Branch to NY Penn via Matawan 11kv 16.7-25hz to 25kv 60 hz Long Branch Matawan section. ALP-46 4600-4628 9 MLV I-II NEC & NJCL 6-8 M&E MoBo Lines
     
  11. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    But where does that cycle start? Doesn't that cycle start at DTG's end?
     
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  12. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    This super bundle steam perhaps opens up scope for the discussion to "quickly move on" if the chat gets a little too quizzical.
    Will be interesting to see how many people post the same question in vain hoping for an answer.
    This I feel will be a heavily audited question set both from here and the stream focusing on all the nice bells and whistles.

    I am waiting , wallet closed , for an update on the "existing customer bundle" for those that don't want to pay twice for Boston or Cajon......

    Let's be honest here, what better way to get your dev time paid for than chucking a route many have paid for a broken copy of once into a bundle pack.

    In doing so , you're either paying a third more than someone who doesn't own the routes, full price per add on or you leave them alone.

    The prospect of doing a bundle whereby you can only buy the most current released stuff for that day at a bundle price won't happen because it would cost them more.

    Unfortunately customer voice can be far more expensive than dev time.

    We must remember that anyone who doesn't buy a new product and benefits from Tod4 updates for free has to be paid for by the existing and new customers of these packs too.

    This meal deal tastes gone off and rotten before I've even looked at putting it in the microwave. I'm starting to feel a bit like OldVern and finding my gaming time going elsewhere. I love some of the routes this game has but this single loco stuff , half cooked stuff or route like Glasgow with loads of issues is just more money sat in my wallet these day
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2023
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  13. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    So, you want a discount on the new DLCs? Does that ever happen (aside from preorder)?

    Your math here is bogus. The bundles contain new DLCs at full price and discounted game/old DLCs. The "one third more" is for the latter.

    In fact, the game (Training Center) is thrown free with the purchase of any TSW3 route. Look at the starter packs: game + route has the same price as the route DLC.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2023
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  14. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely this. They could, if sincere, acknowledge the concerns and concede they need to pull the route for a month to go back in and rework items such as the PIS, the missing layers etc., etc. But no they take this, “publish and be damned” approach every time, with vague assurances and platitudes about future fixes most of which never materialise. It may be a niche hobby but £30 is not cheap for a half baked and hastily assembled experience. Voting with our pockets is just about the only recourse we have which I, despite my initial enthusiasm for all the forthcoming 2023 titles, am now doing.
     
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  15. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Nothing against going new paths with a preview stream.
    There is a lot of stuff to looking forward to it. Acela is for sure a good train and finally a new loco. Also the livery bundle looks great to me, same for the alp46 and cab car.

    Unfortunately the heavy short cut of the "new" route with the performance excuse etc. Let me looking foward to next sale season too. Happy to safe 200GBP or more in the first half year.
     
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  16. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    See you down at Cal Portland or maybe on the Buttonwillow or Arvin branch! Seriously some of those branch lines and industry spurs in Run 8 are like the Inglenook switching puzzles of old, give the old melon a workout which I thoroughly enjoy and there is a purpose to it too. My only gripe with Run 8 is that adding in those car packs one at a time can get tedious but I’m slowly getting fewer and fewer placeholders appear!
     
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  17. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    I hope there will be some peace in this thread again. I'm definitely looking forward to the Acela Express with the TOD4 upgrade for Bosten Sprinter and also the upgrade for Sherman Hill. New York-Trenton has yet to convince me as it's a mix of LIRR and NEC from TSW2020. That's why I'm waiting for the preview on Thursday. I'm sure the devs have read all the comments. What might be taken into account in the future would be to get an initial opinion from the community via first dev screenshots. Then you still have time to make changes before release and happier customers. Many who loved the old NEC will look forward to it either way. ;)
     
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  18. northeasttrainman

    northeasttrainman Active Member

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    This thread is 10 pages & counting.
    So you might not have read each one in detail, but the Acela been brought up a number of times.
    We'll have to see what DTG has in store when it launches.
     
  19. northeasttrainman

    northeasttrainman Active Member

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    The other Comet coaches are cool, but I think DTG would rather do solid consists than mixed ones like NJT.
    It's RARE to see a solid consist of Comet Vs on the NEC. The IIMs & IVs don't seem too likely imo.
    Never say never, but I won't hold my breath.
    I think Arrow IIIs might be more likely as a future DLC.
     
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  20. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I reckon DTG will have made the majority of Acela services stop at Trenton, they’ve made a point out of giving us a second route to run it at speed on.

    I think it’s a decent compromise.
     
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  21. northeasttrainman

    northeasttrainman Active Member

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    Ditto. I'm pretty passionate about this route because I've rode it for YEARS.
    I'm disappointed about a few things, but that's bound to happen from time to time.

    I'm just a bit taken aback at how a lot of this devolved into vitriol at DTG. The DLC is optional, no one is being forced to buy it.
    I'll still buy it, still play it, and enjoy it (hopefully, just don't give me TSW 2020 NEC again) in spite of some inevitable inaccuracies.

    It's great to see concerns being voiced, and hopefully DTG takes these into serious consideration with this route & future US routes.
    I don't make videogames for a living, so I have no idea what it's like. Let alone what their work environment is like. It's not my business anyway.
    But I don't want to be a man yelling at the sky when it rains.
     
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  22. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    DTG are telling you it’s rain, when infact it’s warm & yellow.
     
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  23. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    My point is more that as a consumer that owns Boston it is costed in as part of a new dlc . To me you are contributing to it a second time.

    Should I not own Boston and it is a new purchase then life is good.

    The simple reason they do not have a bundle comprising solely of 21st feb content or whenever he release is is because it's not commercial viable. Make people buy again no matter how small that financial contribution is.

    referencing my third more comment, I should have been clearer I'm not on about financially, more so that I buy a bundle and 1/3 (1 route or dlc) I already own
     
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  24. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean here. I understand the words, but not the sentences.
    I assume you are complaining about the fact that you feel at a disadvantage, because you already own the NEC Boston DLC.
    Do you feel the same way when there's a sale and you see an old DLC you already own at a price lower than what you paid for it all those years ago? Because this is exactly the same thing.
    Say you bought BML at launch for 30 quid. Tomorrow, there's a sale and BML is 50% off, and someone who doesn't own it buys it for 15 quid. Do you think yourself slighted by this? Because that's all there is here, no more, no less.

    If you already own a bunch of DLCs, don't buy the packs that contain those DLCs. Buy whatever you need. Buy NEC New York as a single route DLC, if you want to play that. Want the ACELA? Buy that DLC as well. Together, they cost less than the bundle, and you don't pay for NEC Boston again.
     
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  25. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    It's that we've had a route with broken signalling for 18months which is basically unplayable with safety systems turned on and now being penalised for our purchase by not having a 10% discount on Acela and Trenton which is afforded to players who refunded Boston Sprinter due to the issues but now happy to repurchase now it's fixed.

    Does that sound fair to you?
     
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  26. yardem

    yardem Well-Known Member

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    So, let's unpack all that.
    1. you bought NEC Boston, you played it, never refunded it, and it had bugs all along. If you were unhappy with the bugs, you should have asked for a refund right away. But you kept it, and now you are getting a fix for free. It's a bit late, but better late than never.
    2. I'm not sure where the 10% discount for Acela and Trenton are coming into play. How does one get this discount? chieflongshin was talking about the packs which contain the new DLCs as well as TSW3 game and old DLCs. UPDATE: You must be Joey!

    Personally, I have no skin in this game. I don't own Boston route, and I don't intend to buy anything in the near future. I'm waiting for reviews and a massive discount at some point in the future.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2023
  27. MAX1319

    MAX1319 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you 100%. I said what I had to say. I love this game and I know what they are capable off. Some of us had narrowed down the US route and started the thread US-new route speculation back in November: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/us-new-route-speculation.61276/ we gave lots of feedback and suggestions that we had hoped would be helpfu and usefull to the DTG team. At the end all we want is a great route to enjoy. I really hope all the feedback, suggestions, frustrations, and concerns will be looked and hope warrants some changes to the current route set to release. As is stands I'm hopefull, but will hold buying the NEC NY-trenton route.
     
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  28. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Of all the issues, the discount complaint thing doesn't make any sense to me- why would they discount new content? Early adopters always pay over the odds, right?

    Not to mention, if the route is total crap, why would you buy even if it's 10% off?? Why not wait until it's fixed, or at least 50% off??
     
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  29. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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  30. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    No I brought it, believed Matt when he promised a quick fix for the signalling so didn't refund as naively believed him but hardly played it (my progression shows I've ran 3 runs in total).

    The bundle is the equivalent of 10% off all 3 DLC if steam is to be believed. The rough equivalent of getting Acela free so I guess we are both kinda right. Tomato/Tomarto
     
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  31. northeasttrainman

    northeasttrainman Active Member

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    If that's how you feel, to each their own.
    I won't be PISsed off at passenger information systems.

    We can all agree to disagree, without getting off track.
    All my puns are in good faith & jest.
     
  32. LIRRtrak

    LIRRtrak Member

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    I am still looking forward to the NY-Trenton route. As much I love TSW 2020's NEC:New York for giving me Amtrak content and my first experience with TSW in general, I've always wished it could be better. Sure, the new route won't include the NY-New Rochelle stretch, but I've always been more interested in the NJ end of NEC: New York than the New Rochelle end anyway. Looking back at the old NEC: New York route, the graphics feel dated compared to, say, Boston Sprinter and the classic controls of TSW 2020 are hard to go back to for me. Once I got TSW 2, I loved the immersion controls and never wanted to go back to the classic style. So what I was imagining in my mind when I heard about the NY-Trenton route was being able to once again drive an Amtrak train from NJ to NYP once again, but this time with immersion controls and more detailed graphics. So far, it seems like I will get the immersion controls, but the idea of the Newark to NYP stretch being a copy paste from TSW 2020, makes it seem like the graphics won't be improved at all, at least on that stretch of the route. I never even thought about LIRR AI at NYP, but yeah the lack of AI trains is kind of a bummer. So, I guess you could say my excitement has been toned down a bit since the announcement. At the same time, though, I don't see myself skipping this route either.
     
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  33. pveezy

    pveezy Well-Known Member

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    There is some solid valid criticism of this route on this thread but I feel like at this point I’m just reading the exact same complaints/post over and over again.
     
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  34. mr_subway_rat

    mr_subway_rat New Member

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    I agree. I’ve heard multiple complaints about the lack of LIRR AI in the timetable. Which in my opinion doesn’t matter as much.
     
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  35. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Absolutely this. If we weren’t passionate, we wouldn’t be here. Train Sim World 3 is very good, but it could be bloody fantastic.
     
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  36. TripleJ814

    TripleJ814 Well-Known Member

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    I agree

    Unfortunately I can’t modify the existing poll options
     
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  37. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    While it is not the most important thing in the world, we have seen plenty of other routes add AI traffic from other routes to increase realism. So the questions is, why not this route, especially when the rolling stock is already there in the form of the M7 and M3?
     
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  38. mr_subway_rat

    mr_subway_rat New Member

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    Well for starters, the LIRR schedule in its current form has trains departing NY Penn every 3-7 minutes. Let’s say for realism’s sake they put them in regardless, that’s a lot of trains they’d have to put in and Penn only has 21 tracks. I doubt the game would perform very well with that amount of trains in the station on top of the NJT/Amtrak trains.

    Then there’s the issue of just how much you’d even see them. Someone operating a service from the lower tracks at NYP to Trenton isn’t gonna see all those LIRR services for more than maybe a few minutes. SSY-Trenton? Maybe. But even then it’s not guaranteed.
     
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  39. MAX1319

    MAX1319 Well-Known Member

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    I guess article should drop in a couple of hours. Hopefully we can get a better idea...................
     
  40. MAX1319

    MAX1319 Well-Known Member

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    I guess we should remove all southeastern services from Victoria since we only see them more than maybe a few minutes.
     
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  41. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    This has beem brought up sevetal times already, but again, plenty of ther routes feature AI layers even for just one station. Like the german layers in certain terminuses (RSN comes to mind), LGV and ICE on SEHS, LU stock on GWE, freight layer on Harlem Line, etc. So suddenly, why not this route?

    As for the performance concern, if that is an issue, then no need to include all LIRR services. Find a sweet spot that makes NY Penn look busier but does not kill performance.

    Also, NY Penn aside, you would be seeing the LIRR trains going past Sunnyside Yard as well, which would be nice to add more atmosphere to the route. Imagine LIRR trains whooshing past above you as you are going around the balloon track and pulling into the yard.
     
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  42. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It does seem odd, when they have done it before. Could there be a technical reason or has the budget ran out?

    It is the inconsistency which is annoying.
     
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  43. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I would assume they simply ran out of time. Remember how they said the timetable was still in development just two weeks before release. Currently it feels like another rushed release.
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes that is probably the case, hopefully Matt's use of the word polishing will turn out to be an understatement.

    I will be watching the stream with interest, I suspect the layers issue will be bought up again.
     
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  45. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Same. I would like to be interested in this route, so hopefully they can convince me even despite the currently known shortcomings.
     
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  46. Thelonius16

    Thelonius16 Well-Known Member

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    There are no "lower tracks" at Penn Station. It's all one level. And the open nature of the version in LIRR means you should be able to see trains from one end to the other. (They left out a lot of the platform features that tend to block your view in real life.)

    At minimum, anyone in the yard should see a healthy volume of LIRR trains going by all day.

    Performance-wise, I can see why they thought replicating the London Commuter experience is not great for some people, but in that case they should at least give the option for a larger timetable on PC and 9th gen.
     
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  47. mr_subway_rat

    mr_subway_rat New Member

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    I’m not familiar with the UK routes very well since I seldom explore them so I don’t feel comfortable enough to compare the two services, but looking on Google Maps at London Victoria I can see why they were able to go to the trouble in that case. Comparing the two terminals is apples and oranges. London Victoria has more capacity for those extra services. Capacity Penn doesn’t have. I don’t know how the scenario editor on TSW differs from that of TSC, but have you ever tried to create a scenario in Penn during rush hour? It’s almost impossible because the game’s dispatching software gets overwhelmed almost immediately and that’s just with NJT/Amtrak. It’s probably the same story with TSW, hence why they probably had to leave LIRR out the timetable.
    I’m not opposed to chopping up the LIRR timetable to a level acceptable to the game’s performance and then adding it in as a layer in the future. And who knows, that could very well be in the cards.

    That could be a reason. Budgets/deadlines have been mentioned in this thread and a few others quite a bit. Maybe they wanted to do it but we’re constrained by budgetary limits? Or had planned to but doing so would’ve meant they missed a deadline? Hopefully we get an answer on the stream tomorrow but I’m not holding my breath. Like I’ve said, the LIRR layering issue isn’t important to me. If I see them, great. If not, oh well. Maybe there is hope for it being layered in through a later patch but I won’t let that stop me from enjoying the rest of the route.
     
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  48. mr_subway_rat

    mr_subway_rat New Member

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    Lower tracks as in tracks 1-5. The ones primarily used by NJT for in-station turns.

    As I said in my last post above, getting them layered in via a later patch is something we can all hope for at this point. Considering the backlash about it so far, I wouldn’t rule it out.
     
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  49. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Personally it isn't a great issue for me as I am not knowledgeable about US trains very much, also having recently reinstalled LIRR and decided it is still too quiet I am not bothered about having to have it installed. However if it adds to the atmosphere of the route then that is obviously a good thing.

    However if this was a UK route and suitable layers were available, not some of the ridiculous ones what have been added to some routes, I would be asking the same questions as to why they weren't included? Also one of the big attractions with the German routes, which I also know little about is how valuable layers can be.

    I imagine the US market is quite large, and from a TSW user point of view who does want to see the sim expand and develop for the better, I don't see the benefit to anyone if DTG seem lax in providing the same experience they might to German and UK players. So, hopefully some of the "marketing" on the stream will this time be shown to be a little underhyped.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2023
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  50. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Not sure performance would be hit a whole lot with LIRR. It has always been mentioned the number of unique vehicles is the problem. The whole LIRR layer would be 1-2 unique vehicles depending on if you wanted to use only M7s or also M3s.
     
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