Midland Mainline - Leicester To Derby & Nottingham

the reason why dtg get away with this is because there are people that no matter what will still defend their awful business practices

 

I am not defending dovetail and all third-party developers involved in TSW DLCs but you need to give them a bit of slack where it is due. As while these prices increase on routes haven't affected me much I can understand the need for it due to cost of living and the issues that may come as a result due to changes. Though there is no for routes of such bad quality due to bugs to be realised. Now I don't know what's going on with Skyhook but are they going to fix this route if not then they need to be stopped from making more TSW DLCs. I was going to get this route but due to bad reviews and justified criticisms I have chosen personally not to get any future DLC they release until someone in their management realises their products aren't to a satisfactory standard and shouldn't be release to the public. Us as a community can handle some bugs in routes as no route can be perfected but when we see these bugs thrown under the rug or forgotten when pressed about it on streams etc then we know it's not right. What I'm about to mentioned particularly is very irritating and is making me question there thought process but why delay a route if nothing was fixed. Like they did announce a while back it would be delayed due to these, they need to do but did they do those things or rush the route to the public without proper knowledge on the real-life route and what obvious bugs it has. Also, to end this off why and I mean why give us high hopes for a trash product that you asked people to say was brilliant when they were lying.

Important note
(Now sorry for going on a rant but this is my opinion on Skyhook, now before people start saying it's a attack which it is not. I've only called them out and have given honest criticism about what they released to us, but I haven't made this personal in any way due to personal ethics. Also by writing this post I've empty maybe half of my boiling steaming coffeepot (steam) rage and It is personally better to let it out all at once or in short annoying increments.)

 

Or, there are people who can manage to get enough enjoyment out of "x" despite (some) issues.
I think the point many people are missing here is what is a show stopper for some, isn't for others.
I've played plenty of routes where the "community" have been up in arms about, and played and enjoyed greatly.
I also think the term "bug" needs some clarification, now to me a bug is something which materially affects the product so much that I can't play it, things like "Guards button label wrong" I couldn't give a monkeys about, it wouldn't affect my enjoyment one bit.
What does baffle me is the amount of people who stick around, despite clearly not liking DTG, the game or any recent DLC, just to revel in the negativity, sure, bugs should be brought up and quashed, but some people are just gloating in any little problem, blows my mind that these people would waste so much energy on a product that they clearly dislike.

 

Agreed. I have loads of routes in TSC I have barely touched, shame on me. Probably enough to keep me going for years.
Derail Valley shows new promise with its simulator makeover, though really needs a new map or two to add variety.
I have mentioned SimRail elsewhere but maybe it is time to give it another try.
I really should spend more time in Diesel Railcar Simulator.
I'm also currently well into a fresh playthrough of Fallout 4, just off to rescue Nick Valentine from Skinny Malone!

 

Just checked to see how many threads are on this new route but Skyhook has sent a response (Midland Mainline - Skyhook Feedback | Dovetail Games Forums) and by the look of it is very confusing. Also It does seem very sugar-coated though here it is for easy access.

 

I don’t think DTG are near shutting down, that does take it to the extreme, the way they are now is the way they’ve always been for well over the last decade, and they’re still here.

The big difference here though is that TSW does not have the tools which TSC does, which are what make it popular. How many people are still playing TSC in a vanilla state?

As with everything, this forum is a minority, the subreddit is a minority & Twitter is a minority. None of these places really represent what people are buying and enjoying as a whole, only DTG know that.

My take is that TSC remains successful on the back of many third parties & modders, buying base DTG DLC for that game is no different to what you get with TSW, it’s buggy, undercooked & underwhelming - it’s what everyone else puts into it that makes it a great train sim.

TSW doesn’t have that luxury, and I do think DTG will run into an issue sooner or later with it, you can already see by their marketing & tone that this franchise is in full gear for churning over new player bases, and there’s only so long that can go on.

TSW found alot of success in releasing on consoles, however that is a mainly casual market & the rate of DLC combined with the cost is not casual at all.

I think we aren’t too far away from DTG coming out with another “we know this and that hasn’t been done well so we’re looking at it”. Unfortunately that’s been said too many times before and we always end up back in the same place.

It wasn’t so long ago that DTG were saying they know how important timetables are, yet here we are. The only time things improve is when something else degrades, for this route we got a mostly good pair of trains, but alas we have paid for that in other areas.

 

All well and good, but as we have seen with Rivet, DTG and Skyhook's previous efforts - words are easy, it's actions that will retrieve this DLC from the dumpster.

 

Just to be absolutely clear, I really wanted to own MML. I was very close to buying it before all the issues started getting reported.

I don’t want to keep moaning.

I’m just exasperated by the approach being taken to DLC development and the amount of issues being added on top of existing issues.

How can they ever hope to fix everything when each new release adds dozens more problems to fix? And then the fixes break other things and need more fixes?

I bought every single piece of DLC initially and I am prepared to keep doing so, but it has to be worth the money.

 

The response from DTG & or Skyhook on this forum regarding the problems with this route including the in game crashes, passengers standing in doorways, incorrect buttons, wrong info on PIS at stations for example being told I am at Newark Castle when the station sign is clearly labelled as Spondon, passengers standing on track, not being able to sit on HST only in drivers seat, floating signage and the list goes on is quite frankly deafening.
I can only hope that the people responsible for the current state of this route are so busy fixing these problems they do not have a second to spare to respond to the comments on here regarding what they are doing to sort this mess out.
To the people who think this is yet another post aimed at bashing DTG you must be playing a different version of this game to the one I downloaded for PC yesterday and played for several hours including a HST scenario before it crashed and I decided that I could no longer remain quiet regarding this content that I am paying good money for.
If I went into a shoe shop for example to pay £27 for a pair of shoes I would not expect them to fall apart the first time I wore them nor would I be happy if one shoe was unstitched on one side, both shoes were for left feet only, the laces were missing, one shoe was black and the other bright blue, because judging by the state of this current release if DTG were making shoes instead of software they would surely feel that selling shoes as described above would be a good idea.

 

Its very DTG/skyhook quiet here

 

Of course it is, skyhook will have gone back into hibernation, the same way they have the with their other DLC’s. DTG will be ramping up to market their next release.

The best we’ll get is an “we’re aware of the issue” and that’ll be that, the same as every release after Bremen.

 

i very like new uk route

 

Hope´s the last thing to die ...

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/midland-mainline-skyhook-feedback.69452/

 

After a brief drive, overall enjoying the experience, the 158 is fun to drive, the accel and braking physics feel great.

I'm really hoping they fix some of the approach control signalling though -

80 to 30 turnout from Nott to Derby junction (between Attenborough and Long Eaton) is not correct I feel, just getting double yellow to yellow with feather. Should have better protection, either approach from red release or flashing yellows - same thing happens when approaching E Mids Parkway from the north, 80 to 25 turnout. This kind of destroys the immersion for me. If only we could go in and edit ourselves.......
I vaguely remember the route designer mentioning on stream that he didn't know much about UK signalling and had to learn from DTG, so that's maybe why.

However, they seem to have incorporated a lot of TPWS OSS grids which is impressive, just need to tweak certain signals to back up the good work.

I wonder if they had real life railway staff available to check the signalling?

The route feels nice, just needs a bit of extra trackside clutter and a few more layers and it will be a cracker.

 

A few more issues I’ve found, it’s a fine balance because annoyingly the route is visually incredible, doing an evening run around Trent Junction with the sunset around Red Hill Tunnels it’s sublime! It doesn’t get much better. The HST and Class 158, I can’t fault them at all actually, I know the rivet counters will disagree but fundamentally there’s nothing wrong with them in the slightest.

But onto the issues and this is important for me, forget the door open close buttons being wrong, done floating assets to be honest driving from the cab, I wouldn’t notice them!

But there are some immersion breaking issues that has let the DLC down and that’s the completely broken signalling and speed signs and limits and pathing!

There are 50 over 50 speed limits outside Nottingham, a 40 over 40 coming into Leicester, a 120 over 110 HST on the Up Fast at Sileby.

Signalling I’ve played 2A59 Nottingham to Derby, so at Trent East Junction you are presented with a double yellow and single yellow with feather crossing over Trent East Junction onto Sheet Stores, and then a red with is approach control crossing over Sheet Stores, I don’t think that’s correct, the approach control should be for the 30mph turnout at Trent East Junction if anything.

On approach to Derby, I get a double yellow, single yellow, not a problem. Then the HUD shows a green, but the signal is red with a calling on aspect?! There’s absolutely no need for that aspect!

1B43 Nottingham to Leicester, notice double yellows from Beeston onwards, so thought must be following another train, then the double yellows step up the a green at the last second then the HUD shows the next signal as green regardless, so definitely not following another train, confirmed on the map. Have Skyhook got the wrong end of the stick over approach control?!

Again 1B43 leaving Nottingham, routed on the Up from line D to line C back to line D into the Up Fast, maybe someone forgot a go via instruction?! It should be Line D until switching onto the Up Fast.

Sorry for the slight negativity because otherwise I think the route is fantastic, it looks beautiful, the HST/158 brilliant and here’s screenshots just to prove it!

 

It’s definitely interesting to read the feedback here. Seems like some players are genuinely enjoying the route. I might pick it up on sale after the more obvious bugs have been patched, because it genuinely looks like Skyhook is committed to improving the route.

On another note, something that really disappointed me. Apparently, you need the Railhead Treatment Train DLC to unlock the ENTIRE Class 66 layer, including railtours and freight services (disabled right now because of unresolved bugs according to the devs), both of which don’t even make use of the RHTT variant. In my opinion, owning the southeastern highspeed route with its included Class 66 should unlock the freight and railtour services. The treatment services would obviously still be locked behind the RHTT loco DLC.

 

I think sometimes the noise on the forums drowns this out. It does seem that SHG and DTG are aware of the issues and are looking into them.

From what I have seen of the route so far, it has promise. My main complaint is the timetable and it has been acknowledged by SHG, and although nothing is promised from what has been said I would imagine some new content or some changes will appear at some point.

 

The funny thing is, they agreed it was too quiet, so what is wrong with actually providing post release support and adding more services, or should I say, the correct amount of services and some additional Freight. How can such a small route have lagged is beyond me...

 

You're too late with this, it should have been done and fixed before the release. It just shows that it has been very carelessly tested or not tested at all.

 

I didn’t buy it. As I said months back, I no longer buy on day one. I let others spend their money and then I find out if its worth buying with my hard earned money. As is increasingly the case with each release for TSW, I keep my money in the bank. If they want it, they gotta earn it. I’m no longer prepared to buy content with so many things wrong or broken. If it gets fixed, I’ll buy it. If it doesn’t I won’t.

As for submitting bug reports and the like, my time is too precious. I game to have fun, not report something someone else broke and couldn’t be bothered to test/fix. A beta tester I ain’t!

 

If they want the customers to act as beta testers then it should be released as early access and priced accordingly, not billed as a £30 polished product. Like others I really wanted to drive the 158, so will wait and see what transpires in terms of fixes and if satisfied pick it up when it hits the sale basket. But even if they fixed it up bang to rights tomorrow I would be loathe to give them full price for it.

 

So, paraphrasing from the Skyhook thread:

The gaps in the timetable are for potential future DLC.


I'm....ok with this, I think.

Tbf, it's a hard spot for the devs- IIRC, DTG mentioned that they ran into a lot of complaints with the original SEHS when they had the 375's running the 465 services when it first released- the problem being that when the 465 arrived it didn't add any "new" services.

I believe it was said they would avoid doing it in the future, and maybe that's the advice they give 3rd-parties as well.

So, if a Class 156 or Class 222 is in the works, that would make some sense.

My concern is, if those DLC's never materialize will Skyhook eventually pad out the timetable with existing stock?

 

Really quick question I suspect I know the answer too.

Do I need to own WCL to be able to make use of the steam rail tours pack on MML for example?

 

I've unsubscribed from the last remaining ambassador I trusted to give balanced feedback following their blaise attitude and dismissal towards the obvious bugs in their preview videos.

I do feel DTG and the ambassador's treat the paying customer in the manner of the emperors new cloths and if enough of them tell us the bugs aren't there we'll stop believing our own eyes and follow them like sheep. I can handle imperfections, I can even handle release day bugs but what I can't and won't accept is being treated for a fool.

I've also stopped watching DTG own preview streams for much the same reason when JD and co ignore the bugs in front of their very eyes and the chat calling them out and pretending Rosey.

Bring back Sam & Nat because they wouldn't let such things slide.

 

Sam and Nat commented on them, but that didn't actually lead to fixes because they don't and never did have that power.

Unfortunately people (including employees and ambassadors) may not see certain issues in the same light as you and unless those issues are actually game breaking in the way they play the game then for them they're not issues as much as they obviously are for you

I completed five runs yesterday with few "issues", but that's allowing for certain missing assets and I won't get started on the HST sounds...

ie, mileage varies by person

 

I think with the express services it is more difficult as certainly on the working timetable class 222's are very distinct to HST's.

I personally cannot see why all the "local" trains i.e. the Sprinter services, couldn't have been put in and ran by 158',s as although they are different to the class 156's and would be marked separately on the working timetable it appears EMT/EMR often ran one type in lieu of the other even if 158's are more desireable for longer distance services like the Norwich to Liverpool whereas the 156's were more likely to be seen on the Leicester to Lincoln.

 

It's true that Sam and Natalie held their colleagues' " feet to the fire " much more than the current streamers, but their main claim to fame is their humor and personality. As ARuscoe said, nothing was fixed more quickly because of their presence. But they were entertaining and that's worth something.

I think we learned a long time ago that bugs and issues are triaged by DTG and, presumably, their partners and that, generally speaking, the "A" category, i.e game- breakers, will likely be fixed quickly and many of the "B" problems ( immersion killers ) will be fixed eventually. Some of the "C" ( scenic/cosmetic ) issues, however, may never be fixed.

And your and my triage may be different to that of the developer. That's why some of us are happy and satisfied while others never will be.

Eg. They can patch NYT 'till the cows come home, but unless they fill out the timetable, it will never be right for most US fans.( Based on forum posts).

Same for this route ( MML in case you're wondering ). I won't buy it unless they flesh out the timetable, no matter how well- modeled it is or becomes.

But that's me. Timetables and AI traffic are game-making or game-breaking. Your priorities may be different.

 

As a streamer and Ambassador I do call out bugs when they are there. Called out a couple in my streams yesterday and the most embarrassing thing happened my DTG Showcase stream yesterday, The PS5 crashed thus ending my stream of MML. I was not a happy bunny.
But as said most of the bugs that were called out, had been noted before the stream started, by beta testers. Being an ambassador I know that some of the bugs get mentioned not only by us but the beta team so quite possibly the guys were not ignoring you (who knows). I mean they picked up the Buzzer and door close bug live on air. So that wasnt done. Testers are only human... I dont know.

Hentis

 

Can someone, for the love of God, explain why the side of that HST is lit the way it is? Everything around it is dark, bathed in shadow from the structure of the station. The loco should be in shadow too. Why then, does this HST appear to have it’s own sun?

 

Hi, I wasnt referring to you, the video I was watching back (think it was prerecorded), every bug was put down to the ambassador being on a dev build.

 

Is it normal that the Class 158 DSD beeps after one minute of idling at a station, and needs to be reset ?

 

Sounds like vigilance rather than DSD maybe?

 

Do you have the reverser set to Forward when at a station? Set reverser to Neutral when idling at a station. Stops the vigilance from going off

 

This is the vigilance, indeed. Yeah putting the reverser in neutral stops it from going off, but is this normal for it to set off while idling at a station and NOT in neutral ? I do not recall any other British rolling stock doing that in TSW.

 

The BCC 323 does it as well. Dont recall any others prior

 

Vigilance will go off when the reverser is in forward and when there is no throttle/brake activity, regardless of whether the train is in motion or idle. To stop it going off, put the reverser in neutral.

 

Ok thanks so I guess that's what drivers do IRL too when stopping at a station for a longer time ?

I really like the attention to detail given to the Class 158 and its behavior. Even sounding the horn acts on the air pressure ! Good job.

 

Yes, that’s right. The train won’t be going anywhere whilst in neutral so that’s why the vigilance doesn’t sound.

 

Great, thanks

 

Just posted in technical reports about being tripped by TPWS grids at Mountsorrel on the down Fast (towards Nottingham/Derby). I take it others have had this too?

See for me this is what ruins the immersion and is game breaking!

If you look at the DTG stream, it’s where Matt got the emergency brake too, I just thought he hadn’t acknowledged the DVD! I’m hoping it wasn’t intentionally covered up as Matt’s fault either

 

Good old fallout, bethesda truely are the masters of bugs

 

There biggest quality for me was they always asked the tough questions or brought up difficult subjects, the as a viewer we wanted answers to.

Now a days streams seem to be a carefully scripted slick marketing presentation with little to no deviation from the script.

 

When will the Achievement on Stream will be available

 

Like londonmidland stated, this is prototypical. In fact in the upcoming patch (I don't know when it will be so don't ask me ) I have made a few changes to the DVD and AWS. As I mentioned in this thread the vigilance system will run through a self test when the cab is unlocked (reverser moved out of Off). What this means is that the vigilance beep will sound and you need to acknowledge it.

 

That's been my policy for over a year now. Haven't bought anything until either (a) it gets good post-patch reviews, or (b) it's a bargain sale pickup (e.g. Arosa: not that good but It was worth five bucks).

 

Well, I for one didn't buy it. Come to think of it Niddertal and Acela are the only DLC I've bought since TSW3 came out.

EDIT: and BCC. Big sale discount, and it isn't a bad route, just very simple.

 

If so, then why was the route allowed to go out in this condition?

 

Infinity. There never was such a time- and I remember all the way back to the Amiga. The issue is rather the difference between little bugs and big bugs.

 

There’s definitely a foundation to build on with the route. The two trains are really enjoyable and the sounds are good. It just needs to feel more alive. I can tolerate the minor bugs if I feel like I’m running a real route. I understand the limitations given the rolling stock and the realistic timetable. But in this case I think you can have more freedom in how realistic you make the timetable.

Also one of the things that always makes routes more lively is having trains that are travelling off the map. For instance with GWE the trains all went beyond Reading.