Canadian National - Toronto To Windsor(steam Era)

Discussion in 'Route Suggestions & Proposals' started by Buynot, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. Buynot

    Buynot Well-Known Member

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    The Canadian National Railway is one of Canada's two major railroads serving towns and cities all throughout the country. Though Canadian routes (from both CP and CN) have been already made, the Canadian steam era has yet to be represented. Two of CN's major stops along the railway on the east coast are Toronto, and Windsor. CN trains out of Toronto start their journey in Mimico Yard, 13 miles outside of the Toronto area and make the 222 mile journey south to Windsor, just along the Canada, United States border. There is a wide range of steam locomotives that can go with this route such as the U1F 4-8-2 mountains for passenger duties, or the U2 4-8-4 confederations for freight duties, or even some mikados or hudsons as well as an 0-6-0 for switching duties. As for rolling stock, there's always the standard pullmans in CN liveries for passenger rolling stock, and 1940s/50s era boxcars for freight, as well as some hoppers or tanker cars to go with them. This route could not only help in better representing Canada in train simulator, but also as a chance to add in some more North American Steam Locomotives. What do you guys think? Would you want to see this route in the future?
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  2. jedi247

    jedi247 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds cool. Canadian routes are seriously lacking in TS2019. I totally agree with the steam locos, too.
     
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  3. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The only problem I see with this is that from my one visit to the area (many moons ago admittedly) I seem to remember there being almost nothing of note scenery wise from London to Chatham
    Other than that I'm sure people would enjoy the route
     
  4. Buynot

    Buynot Well-Known Member

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    Well if the route gets made, whoever makes it could always do what G-Trax did on their B&LE route and shorten the route to eliminate boredom.
     
  5. Aljaž Skarlovnik

    Aljaž Skarlovnik Active Member

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    Don't do that. That is bullshit.
     
  6. Buynot

    Buynot Well-Known Member

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    How so? It seems prefectly reasonable if there's nothing going on in terms of scenery.
     
  7. Aljaž Skarlovnik

    Aljaž Skarlovnik Active Member

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    You are changing the route for no good reason. That's BS. Good scenery or not, there is something to be said about the route being correct in length.
     
  8. steammaster4449

    steammaster4449 Well-Known Member

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    Ooh. A Canadian route in the steam era. V A R I E T Y. Something that ANY game can use, no matter the genre. Gotta another winner in my book.
     
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  9. trainboyerik

    trainboyerik Member

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    agree 150%!
     
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  10. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    I already put in an idea for Toronto freight scenarios and all of the Toronto area rail yards in Oakville, Vaughn, Oshawa, and in downtown Toronto itself. We need Toronto represented.

    I also chose not Windsor, but Sarnia's St. Clair Tunnel for another route idea, with London being a potential terminus (utilizing a now-closed Kellogg's plant and the London freight yard in different locations) and going into the U.S. to Flint. This allows for activities on both sides and cross-border traffic as well.

    Windsor to Toronto is probably too long for one DLC unless you consider something like Southwest China High Speed, which is much longer but by Just Trains or one of their affiliates.
     
  11. shredder550

    shredder550 Member

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    While I agree that a Toronto - Windsor route would be awesome, I can't see Dovetail covering such a vast distance in-game. Since railway lines are divided into subdivisions, with crew changes and servicing conducted between these subdivisions at divisional points, it might make more sense from an operations perspective to cover a single subdivision. Even then, if you were to cap it off at London or St. Thomas (both divisional points with yards and engine terminals at the time), that would be more than the distance of the longest routes available for Train Simulator. Dovetail seems hesitant to pursue routes longer than that in the modern era, when no historical research is necessary. On a route in the 1950's like this, it requires a fair amount more. You would need to know about the standard signage, speed limits, signal locations and styles, station locations and designs, and a whole lot more to faithfully recreate it. To know this requires getting in contact with local historical societies and museums, getting access to period-appropriate photographs, etc. This is not to shoot you down, per se, and I want to see more of your route suggestions going forward, I just felt the need to chime in.

    To respond to ARuscoe: I think the focal point of a route like this is the steam-to-diesel transition era aesthetic. Telegraph wires, crossbucks, jointed rail, classic cars, semaphores, and a whole lot more that you can't see today. Not to mention the gameplay would be quite different from the modern era if Dovetail accurately represents train order operation. I think these would make up for any perceived lack of scenery over this route, and I'd even argue that rural farmland has its own charms.

    Something to note is that, as shown in one of the pictures included in your post, Wabash actually had trackage rights over CN from Windsor to Fort Erie via St. Thomas at the time. This is yet another railroad that could use some representation in Train Sim, and a route like this would be a good opportunity.

    CN locomotives like the 4-8-2 and 4-8-4 weren't assigned certain roles like freight-only or passenger-only, rather they were used for both. They found themselves in more freight roles as diesels began to take over the high priority passenger runs in the 1950's especially. Even then, some were used in passenger runs right up until their retirement.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
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  12. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    Neither can I. That's why I never brought up Windsor in my own ideas. Even just a DLC circling Toronto and visiting the four massive freight yards, with enough of each of the eight or nine or ten routes out of the city for scenario purposes, would be sufficient, but including one general route at least for some real driving seems feasible. That's why I suggested Woodstock. But that's 150 km of track alone. Kitchener? That's maybe at most an hour away, less than 100 km by car. Oshawa? Burlington? They're close, but small distances.

    And I suggested Flint to London. 100 km on the Canada side, the St. Clair Tunnel, and another 110 km or so in America (130 miles or so total). Might be too long for their liking. But doesn't mean it's not a great idea. Even if it's two routes with Port Huron and Sarnia sides of the tunnel represented in both, merging them later gives great Workshop potential for some international freight scenarios using both US and Canada trains. Though I could not put the highest price point in each half if that's what they end up doing, and have the twin pack available for a discount.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  13. dcr raptor

    dcr raptor Member

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    Having a look at that route, it's about 200 miles between Windsor and Toronto, so driving the entire length in a single sitting wouldn't be possible for most players. Segmenting the line into smaller routes would probably make the route doable though.
    Probably something like this:
    Windsor - London
    London - Kitchener
    Kitchener - Toronto

    If lack of scenery is a problem, maybe having the route go via Hamilton instead of Kitchener would be better. However one thing to note about routes with a lack of scenery is that they're easier to make longer while having them look somewhat accurate to real life.
    The only problem with routes like that is that it gets boring quite quickly when you're trundling through 100s of miles of desert at 60mph with nothing to really do. The most interesting things on those routes are the occasional towns, refineries and freight yards. Then again, they can also be quite refreshing if you haven't played one in a while.
    IMHO, routes should be made to the prototypical length rather than being arbitrarily shortened to cut out bits determined to be uninteresting.
     
  14. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    Remember that freight yards are still track they have to create and get working with switches, etc. You might be able to churn out a yard in two days, but they take weeks to test this stuff. With four heavy yards we might be discussing a couple hundred km of track just in Toronto, particularly if you include the GO passenger service (a completely different set of tracks except coming into Union Station from Oakville). You do raise a point that London is a good starting point for a DLC to Toronto, but it would not reach Toronto directly. If they were to then include the St. Clair Tunnel, we would have a very bare space before London with the possible exception of Strathroy and a jaunt through a town called Wyoming, same as the state. There is more civilization around the very small town of Watford between that (yes, same as the spot in the UK). I almost think London is a better ending point to the Sarnia line, but I think there is another set of tracks that goes through London (you should see London downtown on the way to the freight yard; I've been held up there while living in London and working nearby, and a rail bridge to this network crosses Oxford Street and Wonderland Road in the west of the city) and merging London between different DLCs might be an option, so why not have both sides?

    So based on my knowledge of London, Ontario, the drive around London would involve lots of housing and businesses being seen alongside the tracks. Busy area. And I already suggested the Kellogg's plant if the route dates to 2010, and the St. Clair Tunnel with that is a good combination for international freight. That said, the same argument could be made for Windsor, but it's further away; by car, the 401 starts around exit 15 or 20 or so, and that's 160 km, while it's 102 to Sarnia on the 402. But Windsor gives us access to Detroit. So the question is whether Detroit and Windsor and the longer journey are more important than the first sub-aqueous rail tunnel in North America. Tough call.

    The problem is they might only take one shot. If we represent the area, we have to find the best place to represent..
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  15. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent idea and if DTG wants to make this an international route they might as well use the CN Windsor Detroit Railway Tunnel. Therefore the DLC name will be CN Steam Era Toronto to Detroit.
     
  16. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    First of all, it's too long.

    Second of all, if going international, the St. Clair Tunnel was constructed in 1891 to the north in Sarnia. I discussed this in the post right above yours. And it's still too long.

    The only international option from Toronto, in DTG's mind, would be heading to New York through Niagara. And I see this being a long shot.
     
  17. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely correct but for Toronto Port Huron Michigan only comes out 183 miles shorter by 122 miles than the longest route in game which is actually Western Main lines dlc London Paddington to Penzance 305 miles. 79 miles is the difference between Toronto windsor-detroit 224 miles vs 305 miles Western Mainline Paddington Penzance route. This is dwarfed by the 471 miles DTG'S idea of an international route Maple Leaf Empire North Croton Harmon Poughkeepsie Albany Syracuse Buffalo Niagara Falls Hamilton Toronto.
     
  18. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    Using a JT route is not a good comparison. In that case, let's look at South West China High Speed, which clocks in 570 km (or 354 miles) of driving. Also, your example requires two additional DLC. And JT would also not be covering a Canadian route, I'll warrant, let alone an American one (we'll ignore that Canada has a unique relationship with the British being a former colony).

    The analysis I am giving is based on what DTG would do. Very rarely do we see routes over 100 miles from them, and they often like to keep them a bit shorter if possible because there is less money made on the route and more on just putting together the train. This is why, in TSW, they started doing baby sized routes like the East Coastway, which was only (I think) 22 miles of driving, but still charged the super high price that the others did. Totally not worth it from a gameplay perspective. Also, a three hour route is way too long for a single session; how many players are going to sit through that? DTG knows that scenarios tend to enter the "fail" zone around the 90 minute point. A three hour route is twice that. They're better off focusing on a smaller area. Sarnia to London is an hour, London to Toronto roughly an hour and a half. Windsor is further away than Sarnia, clocking in at the 15 km or so entry point to the highway as a three and a half hour car ride on the highway non-stop, let alone the train drive. There is no way that a single connected route would be developed and sold for the regular new route price on Steam. None. Period. You have to look for shorter projects, or be willing to break up your ideas.

    For instance, I stayed in Sarnia, home of the St. Clair Tunnel, a National Historic site in the U.S. and since replaced by the Paul M. Tellier Tunnel (opened in 1994, dedicated in 1995, and named in 2004 after the CN president who foresaw expanding traffic in 1992 and called for the new tunnel to be dug) and suggested a route to Flint, and another to London, covering both ends of the historic St. Clair Tunnel. I even suggested dating the Canadian side to around 1990 when the CN SW1200 was prevelant on the CN Point Edward stub (a line which once ran to the Point Edward Charity Casino, a former rail shed, and also provided ferry service and beyond to the Bluewater Bridge). Scenarios would allow travel across the Sarnia downtown via Front Street, traveling in the segment alongside the road before crossing again to pass Centennial Park. There is even an old train off the tracks on display, an old CNR engine nicknamed "Betty" (#6909 and once in a head-on collision of its own). By dating one side of the route, it allows for the newer tunnel to be used in one version and the older tunnel in the other, and route merging could take place to allow for both modern and more dated rail travel depending on the version used (the Sarnia and Port Huron tracks would remain on each side, and Sarnia in particular might look different given what I discussed above). Since these could be merged, I would not date it back further than 1990, though it could clearly be done back to 1900 or so and would be a GREAT Workshop project for someone once the route is released (perhaps using some Cheyenne 1869 types of scenery and rebuilding the route to the Bluewater Bridge). ES44ACs travel the rails along the track between Sarnia and London currently, but dating back to 1990 gets some other traction on the line while the CN ES44AC can travel on the Michigan side after crossing the tunnel.

    Back in Toronto, I suggested a full freight DLC including the various yards around the communities making up Toronto (Vaughn, Scarborough, Mississauga, Brampton, etc.) as several companies are represented. I said include the passenger GO service for those interested in passenger travel, as well. Breaking areas up like this and providing ideas for content around that is the only way to get them possibly considered, and we don't even know to what extent that is happening. The Toronto route can be coupled with the SD75M, but this can also be applied to either of the Sarnia-Port Huron route ideas above (likely the one focusing on Michigan since the CN SW1200 switcher would be a feature of the Sarnia one as well as another train heading to the former cereal plant in London, Ontario).

    See what I did here? I gave history of the Sarnia area in North American rail history, and gave details of the various features of the Toronto area, thereby buffering the possibility that DTG or another developer might find interest in the area. To be clear, I like the idea of a historic route. But it's better to suggest a shortened option and try to focus on why that specific version is the idea to work off of. Chances are the area will only be visited once. DTG or other developers might even pick a different time period than we do, as well. Keep this in mind.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
  19. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for telling me about this and if they did Toronto Sarnia Port Huron in the 1990s there is the Amtrak train International Chicago Toronto u.s. border crossing Port Huron Michigan and the player will be given the task for operating the International final leg Port Huron Toronto 183 mi. You knew the Toronto Sarnia Windsor Michigan routes well. I'm familiar with the other border crossing US Canada the Maple Leaf Niagara Falls New York State since it's connected to Metro-North Hudson Line at Poughkeepsie.
     

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