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“sim” In The Title Is The Problem

Discussion in 'PlayStation Discussion' started by Samo1, Nov 4, 2020.

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  1. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    When a company puts the word “SIM” in the title customers have every right to expect a sim experience, TSW is not by any stretch of the imagination a simulation of train driving, it’s still a decent experience and without going over a list of the same old problems again this is more arcade than simulation, no one in this community could get in a train represented in the game and then drive the real thing plus only the most basic controls within the game are ever used and most of the buttons/controls have never been explained in a manual or have needed to be used like in the real life experience on any journey

    The title oversells the expectations of customers especially new customers especially when for the first time they see passengers sitting in sidings, how sim is that? or wrong speed limit rules on the Bakerloo line,

    I really feel the title of this product is misleading and builds up expectations that are simply never met and that causes it’s own problems from disappointed players, DTG should never have put the word “SIM” in the title in my opinion
     
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  2. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with your whole post. I’m sorry.
     
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  3. Costpap

    Costpap Member

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    Sorry to come off as rude, but it’s up to DTG to choose how to name their products. If you don’t like the name of the product, you can simply not buy it.
     
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  4. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Member

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    I also disagree. I really like this level of simulation. In my opinion, the name SIM deserves.
     
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  5. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    A question for the person who birthed this thread, so by your own very logic then racing sims and flight sims shouldn't be called sims because you don't use every button or switch in the vehicle of choice??
    Also a fair chunk of us playing this non sim probably could drive a train due to the insane amount of knowledge we have built up in many years of learning about every aspect of railways, me personally have over 35 years of learning about trains and railways,and that's just 1 single player.
     
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  6. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    TSW is at heart a playable arcade game with sim elements, it’s not a simulator as the title suggests
     
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  7. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    I’m not talking about other games, I’m talking about TSW as that’s the community I’m addressing, if you put sim in the title you raise expectations but the game never gets close to being a sim, other games that have called themselves sims in the past especially flight sims come with mega instruction manuals, the fact you can get in a train and drive it with a single quick start page says it all really
     
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  8. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    Then flight sim is not a simulator either dude, your own logic dictates this, but i bet you won't agree with that lol
     
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  9. Class395

    Class395 Active Member

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    I disagree with the whole threat as well. How is this an arcade experiencie? The whole point of this game is easy to play, difficult to master. If you master it (I like to think I have), the experience is very rewarding and true to life. You need to know the signalling, the safety systems. how your train drives, where to stop and I could go on and on. I just don't see how it's not a true-to-life experiencie just because some buttons/functions are not simulated. And don't even get me started on simugraph. I'm sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree.
     
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  10. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    ...
     
  11. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    Driving a train with a five minute tutorial and/or a single page quick start guide is not a simulator either dude but I bet you won’t agree with that

    I’m talking about THIS game, I don’t give a toss about other games, that not what THIS post is about

    if you over hype a product it needs to live up to expectations, I bet a pound to a penny MATT and SAM would not call this game a “SIM” it’s an arcade game with sim elements so more players can buy it and play it, that completely fair enough but the title is still misleading
     
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  12. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    The train that we drive is simulated, so Train sim world fits great. I feel like your trying to split hairs here. If you would like to call it “Train Arcade World” and it makes you feel better, then I think you should call it that.
     
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  13. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that it is a simulator? Even with the stuff you mentioned it’s still a simulator. I don’t think it’s misleading you. If anything I think your misleading yourself and others with this non-sense.
     
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  14. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Member

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    An example that this is a simulator is the pairing of American locomotives. I had to read the driver's manual to understand how the individual locomotives communicate with each other. The sophistication of the locomotives is at a very good level.
     
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  15. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    Now why you going getting your knickers in a twist, the point being that your very own logic has defeated your own point your trying to argue, so your basically getting worked up because you beat you lol
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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  16. Class395

    Class395 Active Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  17. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    No game that you can buy is a simulator, some get closer (Zusi3, Run8), some are further (Derail Valley, Trainz) some are in-between (TSW, TS).

    However "sim" or "simulator" has got a second meaning over the years which is simply used to indicate a game which is created around the idea of simulating aspect of real life.

    Simulator:
    Screenshot_20201104-165659_YouTube.jpg

    So your argument although true for TSW requires a new convenction for all titles called "simulators" not just TSW.

    And hating Dovetail for simply following an already established naming convention is frankly, stupid (no offence).

    I'm fine if they are called simulators in their context. Nobody expects to use TSW or, indeed, any other thing which has "simulator" in the title to train to become a real train driver/pilot/racing driver/etc...

    P.S.
    Screenshot_20201104-172204_Drive.jpg
    This is a page from the manual of one of the most accurate add-ons (or DLCs) ever creates for a simulator. The base package is 99.99$ on a 60$ simulator (developed by the company that builds the F35) and everything is simulated perfectly, yet look.

    Nothing you can buy yourself is a true simulator in the sense you wrote above.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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  18. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Some parts of this game do feel arcady but a lot of the things in this game are simulated. DTG have to strike a balance from making a train easier or harder to to drive a train as well because if a train is too difficult for some people to drive, then they won't play the game
     
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  19. ildario77

    ildario77 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the good balance between fun and simulation is the best part of this franchise. And yes, I'm saying something positive about TSW, finally :D
     
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  20. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    I would like to have a good conversation on my post but I know from past experience that DTG Nat will call the post arguing because members have different views and will shut the post down so I have had my say, others are entitled to theirs if DTG Nat permits it
     
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  21. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    How is it not a sim? Maybe it isn't perfect but unless you have a mock-up of a cab in your living room then what are you expecting! Okay there may be passengers in the coaching stock in sidings, it hardly stops it being a sim, it is quite minor to be honest!

    It feels like a sim when you are trying to cope with PZB! It simulates driving a train which looks like it should, has safety systems as in real life, sounds in most cases like it should or a good representation and from what I can gather generally perform close to the real thing. The routes are probably as close to reality as they can be simulated, unless you want them to model every building within 100 yards from the track exactly.

    Your opening comment that it isn't "by any stretch of imagination a simulation of train driving" is a little fatuous to be honest!
     
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  22. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    well this page has definitely not reached the arguing stage and is still very much debating
     
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  23. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    Me loves a good healthy debate with chunks of stupid humor thrown in lol
     
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  24. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    also no simulator will ever be able to replicate what it's like in real life
     
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  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think dtg should be shutting down postsv for difference of opinion
     
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  26. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    Have a good conversation now before it gets locked then. I haven't see you address any comment above from people disagreeing with you
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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  27. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    As long as everyone stays civil they won't do, only if it takes a hard shift in to the nasties will it get shut down.
     
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  28. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    You are all of course welcome to voice your opinions and we actively encourage it.

    What we don't permit is one member attacking another because they have a different opinion to their own, so please keep it civil and friendly and I shall enjoy the discussion.
     
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  29. flickyhecky

    flickyhecky Active Member

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    I've made it past Nats post...i have nothing to add to the conversation.

    I can't drive those American shunting locos at all, can't get the hang of it, I love buttons to press, but it's getting them in the right order, and I'm not paying for a manual...thats probably how I've managed to get away with working machines at work...press random buttons and hope for the best!
     
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  30. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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  31. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    For nothing to add, that's a amazing thing to add to the debate, l love your style, pure genius!! :D :D :D :D
     
  32. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    There was already this exact same discussion some weeks ago under the name of "game or sim" or something like that... so this thread is pretty much pointless anyway
     
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  33. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Member

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    That's why I really like American locomotives. There really are a lot of those buttons. :)
     
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  34. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    also i do believe they are working on making more in depth manual for tsw 2
     
  35. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    Dam it, gutted i missed that party lol, if we are all totally honest, how many things debated in these forum's are actually worth anything??, what does it achieve or make a difference too??, wooow that got deep real quick.......
     
  36. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    Many debates are actually great, some because you are just chatting about the game with other players and that itself is usually a good experince, others are more aimed at the devs where we point out something we'd like to see fixed, added, etc... it's the most used and "informal" way to stay in touch with the devs and between ourselves (the "formal" way being sending a ticket or e-mail).

    But personally I hate these kind of threads, how can OP expect from a 30€ console game to teach a real driver how to drive a train is beyond me... it's like going to Samsungs' forum and write a thread about how their new "S20 Smartphone" is not actually a "SMARTphone" because the AI in it is not as smart as a human being... and so marketing the product as a "smartphone" is misleading
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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  37. Lenwigg

    Lenwigg Active Member

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    He is always moaning about something.
     
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  38. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    When you were looking for a train simulator to play, I’m assuming you looked everywhere for one but found that they cost hundreds of thousand of moneys, so decided to get a train game instead. It certainly covers what I was looking for when I was looking for a train simulator. The title conveys exactly what it is - it has trains, it simulates driving them and you inhabit the world as a playable character (unlike other train simulators), hence Train Sim World. A world inside which trains are simulated.

    You certainly don’t have to stretch your imagination far to see it. It is a simulator. What’s next week’s pointless complaint thread?
     
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  39. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    with regards to the op saying that "no one in this community could get in a train represented in the game and then drive the real thing" i guess then games like farming simulator shouldn't have the word simulator in them as i'm sure anyone who plays them wouldn't be able to run a farm or euro truck simulator as i doubt anyone from that game could drive a truck at long distance with a trailer on. every simulator game will have a way of simplifying things to make it fun. also i recommend you watch flight sim best weekly moments as allot of the time clips from that don't resemble something that should be in a simulator game
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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  40. simongilford

    simongilford Well-Known Member

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    It's closer to a simulator than it is to any other genre, so I don't see the issue.
     
  41. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    A simulation/simulator in the airline industry is a comprehensive aid to train pilots for their future career
    TSW is arcade entertainment for fun that gives a feeling of what it’s like to drive trains and is not a simulator, no player could go through a start up and stop the train scenario and then say they can drive a train and use that experience in the real world, try applying for a job on the Bakerloo line and saying my experience is driving a tube in TSW, see if you get the job

    I’m really surprised so many don’t understand the difference between a simulator and entertainment, “Sim” gives the game a feeling of being far more in-depth than it really is and TSW was never made to teach players to become real drivers, it was made as entertainment and that’s fair enough but to call it a sim is stretching the imagination a bit to far
     
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  42. GuitarMan

    GuitarMan Active Member

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    just to check then, you don’t think Microsoft flight sim should have simulator in the title either? It’s not a dovetail specific gripe but a genre gripe?
     
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  43. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    Try to apply to a pilot job and saying "I've flown the best DLC on the market on the best sim" it's the exact same thing.

    I went into an aeronautics based high school, and while my experience with Flight Simulators made some things more intuitive, none of my teachers cared less about my "flight simming career" also for your information trains drivers also use simulators for training, I attached one picture of it in use on my comment above.

    While I agree this is not the most authentic Simulator experience on the market (Zusi3 and Run8 are far more simulative) it's still up there, what about Trainz that calls itself Trainz Railroad Simulator, and you get the same controls you get if you run a model train with a knob you can turn to go one way or another? This is actually a simulator (in the right context).
    Screenshot_20201104-172204_Drive.jpg
    If you missed it this is a page from a 99.99$ DLC for Prepar3d (a 50$ simulator, actually used by Lochkeed) and yet it can't be used for real training.

    So take a step back and remeber we are talking about a 30€ console game
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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  44. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    well if i was to ever play a flight sim i still wouldn't feel comfortable that i could fly in real life. personally I don't see a difference in something being called a sim or simulator like many people Microsoft flight sim 2020. Almost anything is entertainment video games are entertainment watching tv is entertainment i find playing simulators entertainment the literal meaning of entertainment is "the action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment." which you can get playing a simulator. yes maybe not everything is accurate but so is some things in microsoft flight simulator 2020 some buttons are not operable and crashes aren't simulated but that doesn't make it an arcade game
     
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  45. simongilford

    simongilford Well-Known Member

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    By your logic then, Walking Simulators teach players how to walk? :)
     
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  46. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that we have only been playing a game and we are not actually training to become real train drivers?
     
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  47. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah... bummer
     
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  48. sinnere

    sinnere Member

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    I just want to know if there are real world engineers/drivers that thinks this sim replicates the braking/acceleration physics well of the real world trains they run. That is when I'll be nearly satisfied.

     
  49. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I know there are some real life train drivers in our community that I’m sure would be happy to weigh in.
     
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  50. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    There have been a number of real life drivers that gave feedback about the sim, all of them were smart enough to understand a 30€ game can't be used for training and is not actually 100% accurate to real life.

    I know the BR423 driver helped them model the physics and teached them how to drive the train.
    On the interview with George Marshall they had a "mixed response" from Bakerloo Line drivers, also a Class 377 driver confirmed that the brakes are too strong (still waiting for a fix back to TSW2020 levels DTG), but said the acceleration was accurate enough.

    Still the general consensus is and always will be that this Simulator cannot be used for training, same for TS20xx, just like any other piece of software available to the general public
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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