I don't quite understand what the problem is with this particular 'controversial' symbol. It's historically accurate. Using it doesn't necessarily mean you're making a political statement. Also, we shouldn't forget nasty stuff happened in history. Trying to hide it wouldn't be a good thing, IMO. Personally I would be in favor or depicting the more darker pages in history, to make us all aware bad stuff happened. But my opinion seems to be that of a minority, and I guess I shouldn't expect a commercial company to develop something that might upset a notable portion of their customer base.
This is the crux of it. Though, it does amuse me to imagine DTG's marketing team being tonedeaf enough to place the E 19 onto a splashscreen—flares, bloom, Dutch angle and all—with bespoke symbol at the forefront of the locomotive. Cheers
I would be surprised if the Germans hadn´t his regulated and carved in stone. It seems quite thin ice. Unless DTG can fit a "Train Simulator Game" into the definition and interpretation of § 86 (4) https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__86.html http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__86a.html
I don't think DTG will release the E19 (the planned routes don't really fit the loco in time and many people are probably less familiar with the 1938 machine = little potential). Therefore, the discussion about forbidden symbols is actually superfluous. Personally, I would rather see one of the well-known standard locomotives (e.g. a 141) or a 111, 120 or 151 in the TSW that I can do something with than an old "war machine". But while we're at it: Last summer (2022) E19 12 was presented to the public. Except for the so-called "H-cross", the symbol of this time was recognizable. But that's something I don't really want or need to see in TSW, although the loco is certainly steeped in history. There is so much other potential there, including from modern times.
Don't want to get into politics here but I feel bad for every German train enthusiast. If the authorities have a problem with the symbol, just remove it and ( maybe ) keep it in a display case somewhere else. Some random person from a foreign country raising an arm to 45 degrees upwards, and they've sent the loco. to an exile. ( That's fascism, I believe )
The E18 would be a nice "Old timer" to have and with some minor modifications, and a new livery, it could be a handy OBB loco too.
Discussing a 1930s electric loco in a thread about a non-electrified route of the 90s is quite off-topic, isn't it?
Saw a 628 while going for a walk in the rural Bavarian countryside yesterday! Can’t wait to drive it in TSW
I agree with this. Those who suffered won't come back by hiding such symbols. Rather they should be preserved for future generations ( personal opinion ) as a warning against evil and for historical purposes, obviously. Moreover, in this case, the loco. itself is just a machine ( a rather beautiful one, should I add ). Not justified to remove it from display.
Verkehrsrot DB Paint for the one in game it's Mint Green and White Deutsche Bundesbahn era. To make that 628 complete a Rhein-Main Verkehrsverbund decal goes to the front because the Niddertalbahn services are part of RMV tariff
For now at least, the (really beautiful) E 19 is accessible for everyone in Koblenz-Lützel. The insignia is covered up, but the loco is not hidden away anymore.
Apart from it being massively off topic, there shouldnt and never will be DE locos and routes from this time in any train Simulator. That has nothing to do with censorship, it is not right to have a jolly time driving trains with that Symbols around, recreating and participating in their role back then. And im quite shocked by some views seeing no problem having it in game If a E18 was made, it would be carved in stone that its a Bundesbahn Version, with no other option to seriously think of. But Back to the topic, with Niddertalbahn nearing Release, im hyped on what we are going to see next roadmap, the visuals have already improoved greatly from the spring summit WIP Showcase, as it was expected, now i just want to hear those TSG Standart Sounds
Naturally. I thought that goes without saying. Yes, let’s. What I’m most excited about is just getting a sort-of rural/branch-line feeling that has been seriously lacking in the German releases so far. Stuff like RSN and DCZ were certainly more rural, but not branches by any stretch of the imagination. I’m curious (and a little worried) about the sounds though. The WIP preview still sounded very 612-ish.
Their role back then? They were simply trains back then too. Personally I don't see an issue. It's from a certain, bad era, so what? So are WWII planes and tanks, yet people are having a jolly time playing with those in games like War Thunder. Of course, it's not like a route like this would happen anyway. But I think not liking it just because it's from a certain era is silly. The VW Beetle also originates from the time of nazi Germany, yet everyone loves those as well.
Maik said he doesn't have 628 recordings. So he said external sounds would just be 612 sounds and internal sounds will be changed to be closer to a 628 using 612 sounds of course
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Reichsbahn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_trains You should really read through it. Simple trains doing simple train things. Would you rather have the eastbound ,,passenger" services with cattle wagons driveable to have a jolly time or just as AI? And on topic, im really looking forward to drive 628, especially as they are getting more and more rare and replaced. Found a picture of dozens of them in a yard, awaiting scrap or a second life if another TOC shows their interest.
I don't know why, but looking at this and imagining shunting in such a no mans land with a tiny little shunting diesel would be incredibly relaxing.
I know that he doesn’t have original sounds. That’s exactly why I dread this route being let down by the sound. It ticks all the boxes for an awesome route except for sound from what we’ve seen so far. I doubt other TOCs will show much interest in them. They’re already set up with much newer DMUs for the most part.
Sure, because that is the only task the railway had at that time, right? No regular freight, passenger or military equipment/troops transport? And I bet those certain "passenger" services in question were transported by their flagship electric express locomotive... Anyway, back to topic... While I don't mind reused sounds from other trains if they sound similar, I hope the sounds will be good. What we have heard in that one preview video sounded quite weird. I know it was a WIP video, but then they said it will be mostly the same, only mixing is work in progress? I wonder what the end result will be like. Also looking foward to see the first screenshots of the route, with the scenery in it's proper glory (not in a WIP state with modified lighting, as in the preview video).
Why assume trains only as a symbol of oppression ? There were good things as well... Shouldn't we acknowledge that DRG Class 05 002 almost broke the speed record of Mallard back then ?! Or the famed PZB system that was first introduced in 1934 ! Exactly, every single vehicle in WOT, WOTB, WT was 'directly' involved in some conflict at some time. And how pickup trucks end up in the middle east & find a new life, we don't shun them ! That's a pleasure to hear... And getting back to the topic Yes, 628 would definitely be an amazing addition. I remember receiving a framed picture of it as a birthday gift when I was a kid. Would be fun to drive for sure.
The 628 is confirmed for the Niddertalbahn DLC, if you didn’t already know! It will be coming to the game
Correct and it's also used in Canada out of Quebec City. Someone can paint the 628 in those colours using the creators club
Thursday March 9th: TSW - Linke Rheinstrecke Preview (Alex, Matt and Lukas) Interesting that Linke Rheinstrecke is getting its preview firsts. I didn’t expect that but it’s nice to see Niddertalbahn is not being forced out before it’s ready.
Nobody remembers "second place" And, only about a 1/3 of WoT vehicles actually existed, and even then, a fair number of them are are WG fakes to fill the trees.
For me it was worthy of first place. The mallard practically destroyed itself in the attempt and had to be pulled off of its train and immediately repaired. The German DRG 05 was able to make +110mph runs on multiple occasions and consistently. But a record speed is still a record speed. Maybe we shouldn’t worry about vehicles too much. Should we not use Siemens manafactured trains because they used slave labour in WW2? Or what about Hitachi using prisoners to produce kamikaze aircraft? Should we boycott the javelin? Where does one draw the line?
The 05 did it on the flat, whereas Mallard was boosted by a downgrade. I can understand why German railfans maintain they have the real record.
This is going off topic but if you want World War II era trains to run on this route you are looking at a DB Baureihe 236 which was originally known Wehrmachtlokomotive WR 360 another suitable choice is DB Baureihe 288 . Both web links are from the German Wikipedia. What both locomotives will do is unlock a 1950s 1960s timetable alongside the rail bus VT95 & VT98 if made.
News from the Discord: 14 stations Takes about 50 minutes to drive from end to end Hints at some unique features (AI might be able to whistle when encountering whistle boards, 40 or so of which exist in each direction)
Nice - I’ve always found it strange that Ai don’t whistle at whistle boards. There could easily be a trigger point in the track. On WSR now the trains whistle before departing which is lovely to hear. Really hoping for some good scenario planner paths. I know the track layout won’t be complex but I’d like to create meets at passing points and take goods trains through with the 363.
Yeah, and on most routes level crossings are already marked on the map, so the game clearly knows they are there. So AI could be programmed to whistle and use bell before them, which would especially be fun on US routes. Ideally the player could also be required to do so (deducting points if the player does not sound the horn, similarly to some TSC routes).
Sorry to disappoint that Battlefield V exists and is doing better than TSW... Also, we already have 143 and 155 from Soviet occcupied East Germany in the game, The Soviets were not as bad as the guy with the funny mustasch, but not far off. America has been in a lot of trouble... all the time throughout the history... so we better just remove it from the game.
I wonder, where you got that number. On Discord, we were talking about whistle boards, not services. There are ca 40 whistle boards per direction. We don't have any info yet on the number of services.
The 2nd World War is a popular period within gaming, especially in the FPS and RTS genres. And then there's movies and books which have been monetizing the events for even longer than games have. I guess if we don't want any countries involved in war being represented within the game, that also rules out a modern Russian route. Lets not forget about the UK, which, apart from its colonial past, has also been fighting some more recent wars (or 'military operations') alongside its NATO allies. I guess that pretty much puts a UK route in the same controversy as a WW2-era German route.
Because 'humans' riding on real trains are known to kill each other since the dawn of time. So, let's have Thomas instead. ( maybe Scruffy would still disagree ! ) How silly is it that people discussing trains on a forum about trains don't like trains because those trains existed in an era associated with a guy who had nothing to do with trains and they'd still hate these trains just for being trains.
Had another look at the chat, and it seems like I got the services and whistle boards mixed up! Sorry about that, will edit my original comment.
Happens to the best, still thanks for sharing info from the discord, I don't always have time to keep up with that one
Battlefield V specifically does not have the swastika anywhere in it as a conscious decision not to glorify Nazis or allow fanatics to use the game as cosplay. Aside from creating a different flag, it also includes lots of gender and race options that likely wouldn't have gone down that well in 1940s Germany. So as an example of a game that is historically accurate to a fault, that ain't it. Amazing how we have arrived at a point where the same people who go on about how important simulation is, are comparing TSW to arcade shooters to prove a point. This is all quite disturbing for a thread about a small rural railway line set in the late 20th Century tbh, weirder still that this all stems from an apparent desire among people to drive a train with a swastika on it. Not cool tbh. I do not know what history you learned, but it seems you and many people on this forum seem to think the controversial aspect of Nazi Germany was that there was a war, and not the horrifying genocide that saw factories created for the sole purpose of eradicating an entire race of people. All the barbarous murder drenched in the symbolism of the swastika, the symbol of the ideology of Nazi-ism, an ideology which justifies ethnic genocide. This is why many people rightly do not want to see a swastika it outside of very carefully curated environments that can adequately contextualize what it represents, without giving an opportunity for people to celebrate it. TSW is not that environment, amazing how many people do not seem to understand that. This is a video game where people come to enjoy driving trains. Nobody should be given the opportunity to enjoy driving trains with swastikas on them. This isn't hard. It does not matter what other games do, if they are giving people the opportunity to celebrate Nazis, Nazi-ism, the swastika, then they are terrible games. A route set in Nazi Germany with a train carrying the swastika is what you are trying to defend here by bringing up these false equivalences of other countries that do or have done bad things. The Northeast Corridor does not represent US foreign policy, the logo on the side of Acela does not represent slave traders, the BR logo on the side of a Class 45 trundling into Manchester Victoria is not a symbol of the colonization of the Indian subcontinent. None of these things are the same as a swastika.
Look, I understand the discussion, but it is a little off topic for this thread, if you guys feel it's worth discussing over further, please make a seperate thread. I don't think that discussing the appropriateness of a (rather niche) 1940s locomotive, however interesting it may be, is that relevant to this thread
You seem to assume people would only want to drive that locomotive because of the swastika on the front, which seems quite an intereating and silly reach to me.
Not at all. I'm just as concerned by people who would want to drive it in spite of the swastika on the front.
Some people just don't care about it? It's a historically accurate symbol, just like the red star on front of a soviet locomotive. Both stand for horrible times, oppression and genocide. Yet people never seem to care about the latter, the red star, only the swastika? Following your logic, are history books or a war movie gloryfying nazis if they feature a swastika inside them? Of course not. It's just history. But anyway, most media get around this issue by simply altering or censoring the swastika, just like done on that restores locomotive seen a few posts back. Personally I do not agree with it, as history shall be remembered and learnt from, not hidden and forgotten. But it is an option to feature war time trains without certain symbols on them.
And all of that because I said I like the curves of the E 18. Agree with your point. We’ve gone off-topic enough. Let’s get this back on rails. Very excited about this! We’ve seen the care that goes into TSG locos. I’m curious how that works out for an entire route.
It'd make you realize that showing swastikas was a pretty normal thing in that time, which gives in indication of how messed up things were back then. Which would be an acceptable solution for me. Not a huge fan of the censorship, but better than totally skipping this particular era of German railroading.
Some of DB ones was upgraded and now they are in Czechia (Germans neighbour) driven by Arriva company. They have cool livery.
Wow, that's a cool livery ! I like the yellow on the skirt. Speaking of it, it's a little bit of a shame that the version in Niddertalbahn doesn't have it. It's a part of it's design I thought worked very well on it. Time for some inaccurate mods !
