1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

A Poll About Licensing...

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by hightower, Nov 18, 2020.

?
  1. Only routes with official branding

    64.1%
  2. Routes be made regardless of official beanding

    33.3%
  3. Not Sure

    2.5%
  1. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2019
    Messages:
    1,293
    Likes Received:
    2,993
    -Another fun licensing fact, while GE has allowed the AC4400CW into TSW, their logos are not found anywhere on the locomotive.
    f9a9c83c-1e14-4eb6-9099-9a7cb45591b4.jpg

    -The same can be said for Searchlight Simulations AC440CW, which omits the logo on the steam version of the loco (But can be found in their own release of it.)
    Screenshot_Canadian Mountain Passes_50.99785--118.19018_09-35-08.jpg aa.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2020
    Messages:
    571
    Likes Received:
    618
    Yep, that‘s cause they have a CSX license and not a GE one. Same thing happens with the German Br 182; the real one has Siemens written over one of its buffers and the TSW version lacks that.

    Edit: spelling
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
  3. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    908
    I wouldn't classify North Somerset Railway as purely fictional. As far as I understood, it was a planned railway, and the simulation was used to support the plans (which as far as I understood never were turned into reality). North Somerset Railway used real landscape and real trains (albeit in a non-existing livery). It was realistic enough; the railway could've been built exactly as represented. The route felt real enough for me, and it was one of the more detailled routes. Short, but it was a good interesting drive. The scenery looked better than most of the other routes DTG developed.

    In a similar fashion, the Corris railway DLC included a section of planned track, as far as I understood. Only a short section of the route actually exists in real life. I can't remember anyone complaining about that, perhaps because even with the planned extension, the Corris railway probably is the shortest route available for Train Simulator, with only a few miles long.
     
  4. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2020
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    174
    Another problem I haven't seen mentioned is that rights owner don't like to see you not respecting brand licensed, even if it is not their brand. Becasue it shows your company isn't really repsecting licensing, and their brand may be the one affected next time.

    So, DTG making "fake" BNSF trains can get them in rough negotiating position also when discussing what other companies, who might otherwise be willing to grant DTG license.

    Pavel Šebor of SCS talks about this quite often, how having fictional trucks in ETS, that resembled real trucks, hurt their initial negotiation position once they wanted to license real truck manufacturers.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2020
    Messages:
    571
    Likes Received:
    618
    I always assumed that this is why DTG is extra careful where licenses are concerned. If they mess this up once, then they will probably have a hard time convincing any other company to enter an agreement with them.
    As they want to to keep TSW on its current level of realism they can't really allow themselves to make any mistakes here.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    I think they need to give the devs more time to develop longer full line routes.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    They have made fictional routes in the early days of ts (railworks). However it wasn't very popular with customers so they haven't done it since
     
  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    That pretty much sums up what tsw2 is but some of the new content does look promising
     
  9. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    890
    They do, but it'll cost more so the route won't make as much money.
     
  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    DTG have stated that if they were to make a route at any length, the price wouldn't change at all. It would still cost $29.99 or 24 pounds 99
     
  11. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    890
    I mean it'll cost more for them to produce, as they'll need to spend much more time on the route.
    Of course, I assumed that the amount of people buying the route doesn't increase.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    It would cost more for them to make but they don't want to increases prices of content any further
     
  13. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    1,000
    • Like Like x 1
  14. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    270
    There is no need to be disrespectful to users of other platforms.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  15. martschuffing

    martschuffing Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2020
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    188
    DtG is re-releasing the south wales route unbranded for TSClassic?

    Apologies didn't spot Callum'B's post above.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
  16. martschuffing

    martschuffing Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2020
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    188
    Don't be surprised after all he was banned from another well-known forum, pinch of salt comes to mind.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  17. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2020
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    781
    Yea, don't count on extensions. They're simply not as profitable as new routes. A new route can be sold to all TSW players. An extension can only be sold to those who bought the first part of the route. So you're taking an already small player base and making it even smaller.
     
  18. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Well, not really. Many routes have been included in various iterations of the base game (SPG, GWE, BLL, SKA, MSB to name just a few) and are already owned by virtually everyone. DTG will know exactly who owns what. There has always been, and will always be, a massive appetite for a GWE extension for example.

    Additionally, make an amazing extension to an existing route then put the existing route on sale at 25-50% discount and you win twice over.

    Surely the last thing any of us want are a hundred entirely standalone 60km long routes.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2020
    • Like Like x 3
  19. Nikubus

    Nikubus New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1
    Personally i don't mind. Im Köblitzer Bergland is one of the best routes in TS Classic and it's fictional, sure the locos have DB brand, but if they have lets say CB logos would that make it worse?
    Another example is Just Trains Class 67 instead of EWS the logo is FWS does that make it less immersive?
    I rather have realistic physics instead of logos
     
  20. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    890
    It wouldn't be good for DTG, as it'll make it extremely difficult for them to build relationships with rail companies (as I believe was discussed earlier in this thread). I personally think if you're going to do logos, do real ones, otherwise go unbranded. I personally like branded stuff but if the trains are unbranded, it wouldn't put me off.
     
  21. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    2,672
    Likes Received:
    5,811
    For anything that comes out unbranded, assuming that may happen at some point, maybe DTG could have a bespoke branding made to be used as the released liveries of anything that doesn’t have the real ones. This could be done via a community competition where people could submit livery designer liveries or submit designs in other formats. I’d prefer that over any lookalike liveries that just don’t have logos.
     
  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    3,979
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    JustTrains would disagree with you on that.
    And yes I can see that "making" people get two bits rather than one to drive to a particular point may put some people off, but this is a hobby as much as a game when you get down to it and I would put money on there being more people with hundreds of pounds in DLC than people think
     
  23. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    890
    So instead of real liveries that have no branding, you'd prefer completely fictional liveries that look nothing like the operator that's meant to be operating on that line?
     
  24. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    2,672
    Likes Received:
    5,811
    Yes. It would deliberately not look like the real operators. A fictional livery would be better than seeing how close you can get to a company’s livery without upsetting them to the point where you will never be able to get a license from them in the future, or put off other companies from licensing theirs. I mean in the game it either is the livery of the real company or it isn’t. If it isn’t, I see trying to get close to it as being a bit lame (not the attempt but the result). Fake logos with a letter changed or some other similar change are even worse. It’s better to show that it isn’t an attempted forgery so to speak with a well designed bespoke fictional livery. I don’t expect everyone to agree but it’s what I’d prefer.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    I personally wouldn't want fake liveries for a route
     
    • Like Like x 3
  26. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    818
    Likes Received:
    1,786
    Never really got into fictional routes or liveries. I like to read the history of the prototype lines and see the impact these lines have made on the history of the regions where they exist. Fictional routes just do not hold my interest.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  27. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2020
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    781
    I don't think they would. Maybe someone from JT reads this can can comment. I'm not saying they're not profitable but you will, every time, sell less of an extension than you did the main route because not everyone who bought the main route will buy the extension, and those who didn't buy the main route, CAN'T buy the extension. The fact that JT does them and DTG still occasionally does them in TS20xx suggests that there is money to be made...but I personally would think, not as much.
     
  28. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    2,672
    Likes Received:
    5,811
    As it’s looking more and more likely that the UK’s railways will be nationalised soon there might be a time coming when lots of existing DLC could disappear as brands just cease to exist and the licenses are lost. It could affect TS and TSW and it might come as a bit of a shock, depending on how many routes have been made with franchised liveries. They should call the newly nationalised rail network something catchy like British Rail and paint all the trains blue. One license could then cover all the new UK content. Imagine that.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  29. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    1,000
    Enough of this two-tone blue and yellow nonsense. Just paint the whole damn thing yellow! I can't wait for the BR Yellow era. :)

    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 3
  30. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    890
    It depends on the license itself. EWS ceased to exist as a company in 2009, yet are represented in both TSW and TS. They also hold licenses (or at least license to sell existing content) for London Midland, East Midlands Trains, Midland Mainline and South West Trains (among others) - all of which no longer have a franchise.
    They only lost the Virgin and Arriva licenses because they both threw their toys out the pram when they lost the franchises (I think the losing of the Arriva license may be something to do with the fact DB are trying to sell them)
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    3,979
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    EWS were bought out by DB Cargo UK (or it's predecessor) so there's a direct line of succession there
    Dunno about the rest but it also must be determined by whether the contract has a statute of limitation, and also whether the parent company still exists and is in the license or not.
    The two which have been removed are virgin and arriva, both of which continue and have IP over their logo, the companies you've mentioned are not ones where the company branding included the parent company logo. If SWT had had the stagecoach logo in it then it may have been different when they changed to SWR
     
    • Like Like x 1
  32. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    890
    This is true (maybe there is hope for a Northern Spirit route), although you could argue with Connex South Central, First Capital Connect/Great Western. (FGW we know the license only covers existing things, not new things - not too sure on the others but they're still there on the TS store).

    You could also argue SWT and EMT both follow the Stagecoach brand, though adapted for trains (I don't know what Stagecoach's new livery would look like on a train and, frankly, I don't think I want to know)
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    3,979
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    Don't think that connex are operating in the UK, but still goes back to whether the contract states an end date

    Also don't know if you can copyright a shape or colour combination where there is not wording or specific brand emblem. A curve of colour may not be able to be IPed (so the arriva colours on the unbranded SWC is fine but you couldn't have the twin circles they had before or the tri-circle logo Arriva use now)
     
  34. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    890
    Virgin might disagree ;)
     
  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    3,979
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    Well you can still have a black and red loco in game, it's the red V or the name "virgin" that can't be used.
    Which is why AP can put debranded Virgin HSTs in their Valenta EP, and let's not forget they got cease and desist from Virgin in the past so I can't see why Virgin wouldn't shut those colours down if they had the power
     
    • Like Like x 1
  36. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    890
    True, I think Virgin would require you to licence all their liveries (apart from red/black), even if they're unbranded (they're very strange like that).

    If JT don't have a license for Virgin that I've no idea how they've got away with it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    3,979
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    Not JT. AP... and as I say I don't think the colouration of the vehicles IS the thing which was IPed, only the virgin V logo or wording

    Same with Arriva, given that the newly "debranded" SWC pack has the trains still with the standard Arriva colouration but not their logo
     
  38. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2020
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    85
    Can't DTG look at Konami? Copyright issues have been fierce in EA's Fifa and Konami's PES for years but Konami gave the tools to fans to edit the unbranded game and wow. If you look at the standard of the 'option files' they are very high.
    DTG could go down this route if it wanted to, they could even just put down the tracks with fake stations and fake trains and so long as fans of the game have the tools they can transform the game.
    The cynic in me thinks maybe DTG is hiding behind this licensing issue a tad so it can justify the high price it charges for DLC routes, especially when they said on a stream they have software that produces all the routes automatically.
    they even could make a real route with fake names and fake trains but allow it to be fully editable.
    Surely Konami has shown that licensing can be overcome if the will is there no?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  39. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,240
    Likes Received:
    3,858
    Not everyone wants to or has the time to edit routes and stock so I should imagine they would lose sales, I certainly wouldn't purchase a route with unrealistic stock and stations.

    Considering routes like NTP which presumably don't require licences are the same price as routes like ECW which presumably does then I don't think they are "hiding" behind having a licence. £24.99 in my opinion is perfectly reasonable and has been the basic cost of route add-ons since the days of Railworks over ten years ago. Considering nearly everything else has gone up in price due to inflation, I don't think routes are badly priced at all!
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 4
  40. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    Not everyone would have the time to make a route. Hell I don't have time to use the livery designer. DTG won't be releasing a editor at all because it would be difficult to implement for consoles
     
  41. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2020
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    85
    I'll have to disagree there theorganist. I think you also under estimate the power of mods and the people that do them. I bet they would love to get there teeth into a proper route.
    Look at Fallout 4 for starters, the game in vanilla was OK but nothing mind blowing but with the mods the game has transformed into something else and the mods were of a better quality than the originals. Modders even fixed a lot of the bugs in the original game and all this was/is done for free.
    Who wouldn't buy a fake route and fake trains say only for modders to transform it into a real route. You wouldn't like that? Don't know about you but I would.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  42. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    There are people out there that would love to mod the game and make routes if dtg would just make their damn editor public
     
    • Like Like x 2
  43. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2020
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    85
    This is where imo companies like to hide behind the licensing rules. Are you saying that modders would have no interest in making mods for TSW 2? I think you under estimate modders and their talents. It doesn't take much for a company to release a creation kit. Look, if a company like Bethesda and their shady practices can do it I'm sure DTG can.
    It all depends if the will is there.
     
  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,240
    Likes Received:
    3,858
    Then you have to rely on "modders" to do it, which isn't guaranteed. Lots of DTG's customers probably purchase from steam because everything is there in one place, many people don't want do download content from other sites. I would suggest most want as much realism as possible out of the box not wanting to have to modify content themselves to get a realistic experience or wait/expect others to do it for them. I would suggest only a very small percentage would.

    I am happy making scenarios in TS1 but that is as much time and involvement I want in creating content.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  45. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    2,672
    Likes Received:
    5,811
    I actually like the fact that there are no mods for TSW on console. I’m not the type of person who would have, in around 1994, bought a standard Mini and then painted it all up to look like a Mini Cooper. I feel the same about community mods in software. A lot of it is badly executed bolt-on nonsense. Yes, there are good modders out there, but I don’t want to download a mod, load it in the game, find out it’s worse than not having it, uninstall it, then repeat the above with loads of others until I find a good one. I can’t be doing with all that. I’d rather have the software as the developers intended even if it is lacking in some areas. Community made content is fine (like scenarios on TS etc) but not anything that means going into the program and altering stuff. Not for me.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  46. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    I said as well that there are people who would love to make routes and mod the game if you read what was above your reply mate. Train Simulator 2021 is a perfect example of people modding the game like crazy, making routes and our passionate about it. People could do the same here as well. If only they would release the editor for pc though
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  47. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    3,979
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    Are you saying that modders will do this for free
    or co-operate
    or not make it so you need all of THEIR mods to run one scenario?

    Look to the state (read utter mess) that is TSx 3rd party and you'll see what I mean, I have mods from over a dozen different websites and that's not counting steam
    Look at the scenario requirements on any AP pack and you'll see further what I mean, especially when they just love to update their included scenarios to ensure their latest DLC is included...

    (and yes I know you can F2 cancel but I want the scenarios to work as intended without spending £200 on DLC)

    The major advantage of the way TSW works right now is if you buy something it works (bugs notwithstanding) and you don't need DLC from three other websites, setting you back up to £75 just to have some life in a sidings
     
    • Like Like x 3
  48. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2020
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    85
    I would be a fool if I said modders would do this for nowt, I have no idea but I bet they would be cheaper and have less bugs, when modders get organised they can do some good stuff.

    You say TSW stuff works and then add a get out clause saying bugs notwithstanding. In other words some stuff does not work and there are problems in nearly all the DLC no?

    DTG could still make routes they do get licenses for if they want to, I have no problem with that but they could also make fake routes which modders could make into a real one avoiding all the licensing issues, the best of both worlds, I can't see why you have a problem with that. Especially if there is a route say a lot of fans want but DTG could not get a licence for.

    One downside of modding and I agree with you it can get messy but if they get organised and say share a platform even a website, Nexus is a good example, I only see a win win situation. But if they charge to much I agree it will be a waste of time.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  49. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    2,471
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    Sometimes mods can be a mess but good stuff could be made at a lower price or even for free in this game
     
    • Like Like x 1
  50. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2020
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    85
    Totally agree all comes down to the type of community.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page