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A Poll About Licensing...

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by hightower, Nov 18, 2020.

?
  1. Only routes with official branding

    64.1%
  2. Routes be made regardless of official beanding

    33.3%
  3. Not Sure

    2.5%
  1. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    If you read this thread in full, you may may have noticed an issue we discussed with this. If DTG starts making fake routes with fake liveries there is a chance that other companies and maybe even current partners would not be thrilled. While not braking their copyright you‘d still disrespect it which could make future negotiations a lot more difficult. As long as DTG wants these licenses as a major factor in TSW there is an element of risk to what you propose.

    Apart from that you seem to ignore the fact that DTG has a significant console market with TSW that would surely not appreciate DTG leaving the real work to mods not available to them. Just take a look at the poll in this thread. It would seem that the majority of forum users are not in favour of what you suggest.
     
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  2. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I personally think the poll should be split with having fake liveries if they can't get the license or real liveries with no branding if they can't get the license (I personally prefer the latter). There are cases where a TOC runs trains without any branding (Arriva Rail North and Northern Rail both did this) and it'd be nice if these periods could be represented.
     
  3. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I personally don't want fake liveries on routes either
     
  4. hightower

    hightower Guest

    I should maybe clarify, the intention of the poll was never to suggest fictional routes and fictional liveries. Personally, that is the absolute last thing I would want.

    It was purely to gauge whether or not there was an appetite for routes that might otherwise never get made (due to lack of applicable licensing) to be made with correct liveries but devoid of branding.

    For avoidance of doubt, DTG have precedent in this regard now, with the re-release of BMG’s Welsh Marches and South Wales Coastal routes for TS2021. They are identical in every regard except the ‘Arriva’ logo has been removed. Rightly there was outcry that these were removed from sale in the first place because of (I assume) Arriva’s ridiculous licensing conditions. The game also lost the Virgin branded Pendalino for the same reason. It’s a flippin computer game for God’s sake! So it is to DTG’s credit that they have done what they’ve had to do and re-released the routes as they now are. I’ve no doubt someone will have released a patch that puts all the branding back for those that want it.

    This poll therefore, was to ascertain whether or not that appetite existed in TSW. Were it better DTG consigned all that work on South Wales to the dustbin, for example, but for a logo? Absolutely not IMHO.

    The thinking behind the poll was my desire to question why we have never really properly seen Yorkshire and Lancashire in Train Simulators (and I don’t count NTP)? I can only guess that it’s a licensing thing. My point being, I would rather see those wonderful routes in the game with the correct livery and no actual TOC logo, than never see the route at all.

    The poll would suggest other people don’t feel the same way. I’m surprised by that if I’m honest, but so be it. I’m not sure as to why it’s acceptable in TS2021, but not TSW, however.

    ps Events in the UK may well have overtaken us, as it’s beginning to look highly likely that the TOC franchise model will be consigned to history. Should that be the case, hopefully the new system will allow DTG to do what it is they do, make computer games. I think too many of these TOC’s have delusions of grandeur, and think that DTG is acting as an arm of their own marketing departments.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2020
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  5. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I would rather see unbranded trains with the correct liveries rather than not at all, although I prefer the BR period personally so would rather see more of that period or at least a balance between the two.

    We have Liverpool to Manchester in TS1 and the huge freeware BR period version which covers much of Lancashire and I am not sure why you discount the NTP route it is the only payware route which has a foot in the two counties. There hasn't been many payware routes covering the two counties I suppose although in TS1 there are quite a few freeware routes covering both ends of the Pennines. The Huddersfield to Manchester stations route is very good.
     
  6. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't know any modder that does "good stuff" with routes without relying on dependencies and requirements.

    I mean that you don't need anything other than that DLC to run the scenarios and services provided with that DLC, admittedly with the whole layer thing you might need other DLC to drive those, but I don't know any third party DLC which do not need at least three or four others to run the basic scenarios

    Or the modders could just make the route from scratch, if the tools are available. No reason for DTG to help modders out

    Doesn't happen. And nexus is a sharing hub but doesn't cut down on cross requirement reliance

    The best outcome here would be that modders do their own work without relying on any other requirement and then put them out on a central platform available to all. Given that isn't going to happen and isn't the situation on any game anywhere I stand by my original point.
     
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  7. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    I think operators / manufacturers will are probably reluctant because of intellectual property. Would you as an operator or manufacturer wanting everyone knowing how a BR 146 is made. Maybe
     
  8. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    In some cases, a route or loco is rejected from consideration because we either don't hold or are unable to obtain a license that would enable us to develop that content. Whilst that may not necessarily hold us up from moving forward, delivering content in an unbranded form can and does have very real implications on our ability to build relationships with licensors and can directly affect whether a license is granted or not. So, we do need to tread carefully when it comes to such content. (I believe this was briefly mentioned by Sam in last nights stream)

    We can assure you that we always take steps to properly review and understand our position on proposed route and loco content and, where there are avenues for us to release in unbranded form, we do so and have done so.

    However, it's important that you understand that it's not always about whether we have a license or not. There are often other good reasons why we don't develop some content, whether in branded or unbranded form, and those reasons can cover a multitude of factors. Sometimes it is not always possible to get the right information we need, in sufficient detail, to help us make some types of content.

    Just because we may be held back on releasing some content because of a license we don't hold, does not mean it will always be the case. Our team regularly reviews our licenses and are always striving to build relationships and obtain the licenses we don't yet hold.
     
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  9. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Going back to the point of "good communication" is there any way of getting a list somewhere of what content is or is not as of now possible? If enough people made mention of a certain unit, but DTG do their usual keeping quiet when they know that as of now they can't do anything about it, people may be disheartened and think that DTG just don't listen
     
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  10. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

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    So DTG tries to build relationships to companies that do not supply licences? Don't see the point if there is no chance of getting a licence.
    If the public had the tools to do it themselves then this situation would be bypassed altogether but from what I have seen from DTG in videos I doubt this will happen either.
     
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  11. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

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    You could look at it another way. Think of it as free advertising or even better paid for advertising by the game company. Surely it is better that more people know about your trains no? Who better to seek out real routes than train enthusiasts eh? lol
     
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  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Won't happen if you don't try
    Not completely true as someone has to provide the mechanism to share them on consoles and those people would also be in breach of IP
     
  13. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Except if people show them broken down, or crashing, or doing things outside of the norm, which the IP holder has no control of...
    Given that one of the most streamed TSW videos is of a broken down GWR HST being rescued by a class 66, I think you get the drift
     
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  14. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

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    Doesn't stop Konami doing it on a massive scale and on the PS4.
     
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  15. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

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    ARuscoe, didn't DTG say in their latest video that they have no intention of supporting showing wrecked trains? I don't know if this would stop it completely. All depends on the size of the company I suppose and you need revenue.
     
  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't make that legal. Loads of illegal things done by others doesn't make it right, and using that as justification doesn't make your argument sound any better

    Supporting it? If someone misuses their software and films it in HD, puts it up on Youtube then quotes freedom of expression you think too many companies would think that maybe DTG had a hand in allowing it to happen?
     
  17. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Do you (or DTG as a whole - not pinning it on you) envisage the probable demise of the existing franchise structure in the UK making a positive difference? On the flip side, if it does go and the brands with it, would the precedent set by the Virgin / Arriva debacle mean that all the UK branded content will be withdrawn from sale? That potential situation is ludicrous (for everyone, but DTG in particular) so lets hope it’s not the case.

    Also, would getting, or holding, a licence for TS2021 mean content could also be built for TSW, and visa versa or are they treated as separate entities?

    Thanks.
     
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  18. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

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    Are you saying what Konami does with PES isn't legal? I think you will find it is perfectly legal otherwise they would have had their arses sued by EA. Or perhaps you are suggesting that the people who do the mods for PES are not legal? Again these people do not hide on the internet. One such website, PES Universe, have been doing it for years every season, They charged £5 each season and release it free as well and you honestly think they could get away with it for so long if it wasn't legal?
     
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  19. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I guess EA doesn't care about what Konami is doing.
     
  20. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

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    The most greediest company that has ever existed don't care about Konami? Their only rivals, hahaha, of course they would sue them straight away if they had a case but they haven't. Then you have greedy companies like Bethesda which set up it's own modding site, if they had a case they would have sued nexus a very long time ago. In answer to you, it is perfectly legal if done right.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
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  21. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    And those mod sites and modding tools allow people to use and abuse the IP of a company whose license with the developer doesn't allow that or is non-existent I assume?

    Their licence with DB doesn't let them promote the winner of the current livery designer competition if that winner used the ICE3, hence why you can't use it. This is the kind of license we're dealing with.
     
  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Always play by the rules to not get your pants sued lol
     
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  23. hightower

    hightower Guest

    No way! Is that true?

    What is it with train companies? What makes them think they’re a cut above everyone else? That is utterly ridiculous.
     
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  24. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Yes, because the ICE series of trains are bespoke to DB, so are their IP. The license only goes as far as saying "you can do an ICE in DB livery", presumably.
     
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  25. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    There’s a mix of legal and illegal patches and what’s legal in one country may be illegal in another. I don’t know how EA would be involved as I don’t know (and am not going to find out) what of their content is being used by the modders. All I know is that the intellectual property infringement has made it to the Wikipedia page for the game, and the fact that Konami are trying to stop the modders doing it, shows that they know it’s not right. DTG don’t want the hassle of trying to prevent the misuse of their software.

    As my mother would say “if Konami jumped in the fire would you do it too?” or something similar. If before doing anything you have to ask yourself “will I get away with it?” you know there and then you shouldn’t be doing it.
     
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  26. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Unless you're playing the card game 'I Doubt It'. ;)
     
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  27. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    It‘s not su much that they think they‘re above everyone else. It‘s more that they‘re very strict about how their IP is used. With the ICE 3 for example, it‘s the DB‘s flagship and I assume that they therefore don‘t want it used in any way that doesn‘t fit with their marketing (such as a different livery, the DB has grown quite touchy with its livery in the last decades).
    I don‘t know how the license agreements work, whether DTG just buys it once or whether they‘re paying royalties etc. but I highly doubt that the train companies make any significant money of licenses for a train simulator. As such, DTG has a rather weak position for negotiation and just has to agree to whatever restrictions the train company puts in place.
     
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  28. hightower

    hightower Guest

    I get what you’re saying, but even airlines aren’t this protective over their liveries, nor do they demand that their livery isn’t seen in MSFS being flown into the side of a building. The connotations and connections for all that nonsense are much more marked for airlines than accidentally running a red signal in a train game.

    Train companies seem (as we don’t know exactly what the licence conditions are) to behave very oddly indeed in this regard.
     
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  29. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I don‘t actually know anything about the aviation scene so excuse me if I‘m totally wrong.
    I seem to remember someone on this forum saying that the new flight sim had license agreements with the manufacturers of the planes and not the air travel companies. I think this might be the difference. The manufacturers are naturally not concerned about livery and probably also not about flying into a building. It could only hurt them if the travel companies buying the planes cared about what happens in the sim which they probably don‘t.
    But once more, this is just based on dangerous half-knowledge and ignorance.
     
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  30. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    If Konami are putting out generic content that doesn't reflect a copyrighted brand then no. If they're putting out branded content without license, yes
    EA can only sue if they're using EA content or copyrighted material. EA could try to make sure others sue them, but then that would be found out and probably result in mistrial and EA being sued themselves, but by the courts
    If people are applying likenesses or logos without license, yes

    And on a final note, EA are constantly under the microscope for not paying properly for licensed content so not the best example

    In the end, companies and celebrities will choose to sue or not based on whether they think they'll be successful and get enough money. If not they won't bother. But them not suing doesn't make it legal
     
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  31. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

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    ARuscoe I don't think you have seen how the football copyright system works between EA, Konami and the FIFA federation works. Konami don't put out any unbranded material that isn't licenced, nor do EA otherwise they would not exist or their football games at least. EA have the bulk of licences but Konami have a few themselves.

    Where Konami are different is that they allow their game, PES, to be editable. EA's game FIFA, is also editable but only in a very minor way. The people that do the mods for Konami have been doing it for years now, and yes they do put out all the kits, stadiums, names, faces etc that Konami couldn't do and yes it is legal otherwise they would have been stopped a very long time ago.

    And you seem to underestimate EA on their adeptness to stop the competition. They have a record of taking over smaller companies only to cancel them and if they thought they could stop Konami in any way or even take down the mod makers they would do it in a heart beat and while you say 'not suing doesn't make it legal' which is true of course in this case the modders are legal whether they are sued or not and goes for any modder.

    If modding was illegal there would be no modding simple. The nexus is a vast site for modding a selection of games and say Fallout 4 have loads of weapon mods that are exact copies of the real thing in every way. Other mods that take from reality and put in the game, there are thousands of them, more. And yet they still remain? If TSW2 was able to be modded there would be zero comeback on Dovetail and the people who would benefit the most would be us, the paying customer.

    Isn't the GWE release in modded livery? Is that illegal? But I would suggest that Dovetail themselves would not want this as they make far too much money on the routes they sell and hide behind statements saying they would not wish to upset the company in question. imo Licensing is only an issue if you want it to be.
     
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  32. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    If modders sold their mods for a profit without the requisite licences then yes it would be illegal. Check the stories recently about players challenging EA for using their likeness and names without giving them payments. That is they key issue, making money from something you have no rights to. It is all about intellectual property rights.
     
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  33. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    I think the main difference in your argument is that Konami and EA are both large enough that they 1) have the financial power and market reach to support licensing deals with companies who are a little more restrictive about their intellectual property; and 2) they have the resources to fight potential trademark suits that might come their way. (Even if you're in the right, legally, it can be hugely expensive to fight a lawsuit.)
     
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  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Lawsuits are expensive indeed
     
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  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't think you know how it works because it's not FIFA they have an agreement with, it's the player's union when it comes to personal rights, but even then they get sued (and lose) every so often
    Again, just because nobody gets sued doesn't make it legal
     
  36. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Member

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    Get a grip, where is the disrespect.
     
  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Insinuating anyone with a console is a ten year old...
     
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  38. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Be careful, you are coming across as a "fanboi" ;)
     
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  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I have a console and I'm not 10 lol
     
  40. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    DTG do know about branding or are you saying they are lying about it's use?
     
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  41. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I think they're saying no one outside the company knows if it's true DTG can't make x because licensing.
     
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  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Can't, won't, "have made a commercial decision not to because there may be issues"

    People speak too literally about such things
     
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  43. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Would like to point out - I don't think it's true they're lying about it (and it's also not true no one outside the company knows if it's true), given Matt has said multiple times he wants "all the trains and all the routes, yesterday".
     
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  44. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

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    How else do you 'speak' on a forum if it isn't 'literal' lol
     
  45. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Who knows? It could be or it may not be
     
  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    From their opinion or conjecture rather than stating things as hard facts or absolutes
    "If DTG don't do xyz then they don't do anything right" that sort of thing
     
  47. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

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    ARuscoe it was a joke hence the 'lol' I perfectly understood your meaning.
     
  48. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure, there are times when speaking literally is perfectly fine. Most of the time I put "IMO" in the front of what people say anyway... Woudl save a fair amount of aggro if people did that as a matter of course
     
  49. dhekelian

    dhekelian Active Member

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    Again ARuscoe I know.

    You are very wrong by saying they do not have an agreement with FIFA, they do and UEFA and other governing bodies like the Premier league and leagues all round the world. It is so daft you could have a licence to show a team in their correct colours, players, badge etc in one competition but not another. They have to have licences with companies as they could not show the Champions League for example, FIFA has just won back the champions League nowt to do with the players union.

    Yes they do have individual clubs as well, hence why Juve and AS Roma are missing from FIFA and have fake teams to replace them, although in FIFA 20 there were mods to fix this as there will be in FIFA 21. You say EA gets sued every so often? Never heard this any links? You can go forward and back on this issue all you like but the point still stands if a smaller company like Konami can go head to head with a giant like EA and get round licensing then a company like Dovetail can quite easily do the same if the will is there and do it legally as well.
     
  50. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    To use league badges yes. Doesn't give them image rights on the players. That's done through the union

    And frankly I'm beyond caring any more. You want to break IP rights. Go ahead. DTG have made a decision not to and that's THEIR right.
    If other companies have different ways of operating, so what
     
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