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A Roadmap For Train Sim World In 2020 ?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by solon, Dec 9, 2019.

  1. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

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    Not in twitch and you tube.
    but if you find it ,you feel free to link to it. But I strongly doubt it exists
     
  2. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    There is no one about the editor the only one is on Dovetails Twitch channel and it's from last year.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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  3. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I do wonder if the editor is being held back until the game engine has been updated. Imagine releasing it then having to rebuild half of it when the engine version is finally brought up to date. I’m sure things aren’t as clear cut as people think.

    I for one am sure it’s coming and don’t see a conspiracy. I don’t think DTG are the devil incarnate. I do think it’s plain weird, however, that they’ve decided to stop talking about it.

    Now, I’m going to enjoy the new head sway feature, because it’s pretty damn good.

    ps LastTrainToClarksville, they have done a single stream on the editor and it was done approximately a year ago. There is nothing more recent than that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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  4. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    That may be a possibility if they are planning to update the engine, this could also mean the editor itself my need to updated as well.
     
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  5. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Stop trolling.
     
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  6. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    To the people saying the editor can add new features, yes I understand that. But, it's the little features that add just that much more detail in my opinion. And obviously DTG are somewhat listening to us. How long has cab sway been asked for? And now that we have it, you decide to complain about something else lol.
     
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  7. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The editor was mentioned again on this evenings Twitch stream in a positive manner. It is just probably taking longer to sort out than they imagined, I guess.
     
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  8. thearkerportian

    thearkerportian Well-Known Member

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    Yep. "The editor is DEFINITELY in the pipeline!"
    -Matt

    It must be taking a lot longer than anticpated though. Nonetheless that was reassuring to hear - a loud and clear rejection of theories of the editor having been cancelled.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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  9. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps DTG want to update the game to a newer version of UE4 first, before releasing the editor?

    Rather than being on what it is right now, which is a modified version of 4.16.3. Which was released around August 2017.

    Obviously not an easy task but I assume there have been a lot of improvements and fixes since version 4.16.3.
     
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  10. John Murphy

    John Murphy Well-Known Member

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    Then it looks like I'm gonna starve.
     
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  11. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Cab Sway is a good example of why NOT to talk about things until the day before launch. It's been in and out of dev probably for the best part of a year. We've had prototypes that were almost there for months but with varying degrees of issues. But it's had to keep being put down to work on more urgent things that have come up like solving crashes or performance stuff etc. At one point it was nearly coming out for the Wuppertal release, but a couple of issues were found and it was felt we should resolve those first - so it was delayed to the ECW release.

    So any time in the last 12 months or so, Cab Sway *could* have felt like it was in a fair position to say "its coming", and that would have been wrong.

    That's why it's much better to wait until the ink is dry on the release before announcing things.

    Communication on stuff like this is tough, and it's never going to satisfy the masses. In the mean time, however, enjoy sway, it's there now!
     
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  12. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    I have been of the opinion for some time that there is a fair % of the 'fanbase' who will never truly be happy with this product. To them, it will always be missing a feature, loco or route they want to see in the game and they will moan and moan about it until they are blue in the face.

    The guys over at DTG are always hard at work on TSW improving the product as time goes on (If you cast your mind back to the initial release of CSX HH back in 2017 you can see how far we have come).

    The editor will come in time...you just have to have patience and trust them when they say it hasn't been cancelled and well and truly in the pipeline (which is the same stance they had with cab sway when repeatably asked about it -- and here we are)

    To DTG I say, thankyou for the many hours of enjoyment you have brought to me so far in TSW and I look forward to many more.

    Thankyou also for the great DLC releases we have seen in 2019 and I hope you all take well earned breaks with your families over the festive period. I'm excited to see what is in store for 2020
     
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  13. Big Papi34

    Big Papi34 Well-Known Member

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    Very understandable. Just glad we actually have cab sway.
     
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  14. Digital Draftsman

    Digital Draftsman Well-Known Member

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    It sounds as though you feel like you can't announce new features because you lack confidence in your ability to deliver them on time? That doesn't sound like a very good way to run a business, especially one where consumer confidence in the future of the product is an important consideration when it comes to their purchasing decisions for DLC.

    I don't mind features being delayed on occasion. I can appreciate that things which couldn't have been anticipated can happen. Where I think DTG are really lacking is the back-porting of new features to old DLC. For example, destination screens, these should have been back-ported to the Class 166 on GWE, the same goes for flashing yellow signals. When I purchased GWE DTG gave the impression that as soon as new features were developed they would be back-ported to existing DLC and this influenced my purchasing decisions.

    Just for clarification going forward, should I not buy DLC with the expectation that it will be updated as and when new features are developed? Should I assume that each product is effectively 'stand alone' with no gaurentee of updates?
     
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  15. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Member

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    hi all .

    For me TSW is the best sim train we have and it’s far to be as dead as you say.
    There have been a lot of additions and new developments in terms of gamplay and immersion in the game this year alone!

    As for the publisher:
    I don’t expect it any more than that.
    I already know that it will be very difficult to do anything about it and that only a very small minority will be able to use it.
    Just because 30 guys want the publisher and we don’t want the publisher doesn’t mean TSW is dead.
    Let’s see a little further than that please.

    My priority over TSW is driving and it is that it gives me the pleasure of driving .
    The only wish I have on TSW is that the lines be a little longer , disont 50 km minimum would already be fine.

    As for the rest, I find it very good, for me, who is not a railway worker by trade, but a simple player, it is enough for me.
    I am not looking for "hyper-" realism at all, but simply to take pleasure, and I admit that I have something to offer.

    I still play TS ( I’ve just created a new road in France ) but TS is too old to enjoy it as on TSW.
    TSW is more beautiful and fluid , it has improvements that make TS is light years ahead in terms of gameplay behind now.

    If you remove the editor on TS , I guarantee that TS will soon be forgotten .
    TSW unlike TS, is also playable on console, do you seriously believe that DTG will keep a game not financially viable?

    Of course for now they keep both, and I’m sure TSW will eventually take over.
    The development of a game takes a lot of time, 3 years is not much for a simulation game.

    TS start to be profitable from its 4em years.
    From the moment that the majority of the new functionality was included it then became much better than are concurant of the time "MSTS"
    Not to mention that in 2013 was added "the editor" which allowed the community to create its own map and hardware.

    So yes it’s been 3 years since TSW came out, but when TS was the same age, there wasn’t as much to do on it!

    I say, we’ll see in 1 or 2 years what it is, but for me TS will eventually become obsolete and I will definitely replace it with TSW map editor or not


    I wish you all a very happy Christmas and a very happy New Year

    Zawal.........
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
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  16. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    Love to Zawal above.

    Im guilty of complaining about TSW just because as we can see now, look how grand it is to walk around a 377, a modern unit we all wanted. When I watch the youlube there’s always one or two complainers but I am pleased with ECW i’ve gone back to other routes just to try out the cab sway, the HST being awesome at 125mph.

    It’ll be cool to able to drive longer distances with this level of detail one day
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019
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  17. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for making this thread and creating the opportunity for some discussion. I think that you are right about the roadmap idea... but before I get to that, let's just look back and check what we have got so far, with TSW, when it works (and only after post release user beta testing has had a year to identify fixes, and when such fixes have been applied....):

    - the best looking train simulator that has ever been made (so far) for the mass market (now including sofa-hugging console users like myself);
    - nearly photo-realistic models of trains that move through a stunning-looking background UE environment, on what appear to me to be increasingly highly detailed and largely authentic looking routes, which are improving all of the time and appear to be less and less slap-dash;
    - fairly convincing audio (when it works), although I didn't know that West Somerset sounds like the Amazon rainforest, but hey - I'm usually a city-dweller, so what would I know...
    - a superbly curated developing selection of traction (and yes, I know that steam is missing... but I suspect that some DLC will find itself ported to the WSR route fairly soon...)
    - a developer that is actually trying to build a simulator, or has that genuine intention (although I am not convinced that UE is really optimum for a full physical simulation - check out the buffer to buffer interaction, for example)

    So.... this software is absolutely not dead. Yet. You could say it's in hospital. Awaiting some major surgery, after a difficult birth. The patient has every chance to grow up and exceed the expectations of its parents, and might even one day be regarded as an "international treasure" for all personkind, entertaining the masses with its deft repertoire..

    But... whatever potential there is for the future, the nurses are not currently cleaning the beds in the paediatric unit or keeping the ward or corridors tidy, leaving the patient vulnerable to deadly infections. The surgeons have been given a new operating theatre and are trying to learn how to use all of the new-fangled machines, and are reading all of the journals to catch up on the latest procedures, because they have only really been trained to operate on small dogs... and meanwhile, the "Save Ferris TSW" charity donors are starting to wonder where all of their money is really going.... and for me - this is the key point...

    To improve the confidence of punters like myself, spending money with risk attached, a Road Map and a set of commitments to test and maintain DLC would really help ease concerns about whether it's worth trying to save the patient at all. Are we investing in the development of some better more reasonable future? If I knew this to be the case, then I would donate every penny needed to buy all existing DLC for TSW. I'd be tempted to help raise some serious venture capital. But....

    ...my recent experience with the RSN DLC came as a bitter blow. This DLC is now quite old, but has fundamental flaws that should have been fixed before it was even released, let alone many DLC cycles later. This is a major shame, because I also bought the BR 155 (which is quite superb). So.... I absolutely will not buy any new route DLC that costs £37.50 (£25 plus £12.50). I might be tempted to buy the latest future sets of DLC next summer - August/September 2020...(?), if they bundle four or five them together for £25. But I won't now even pay this if they are not demonstrably bug-free. And if PS5 is not backwardly compatible, and Dovetail don't fix the legacy TSW DLC, then TSW will become completely dead to me. I really can't see myself spending £2000 on a PC and £5000 on TS2022, even if I can easily afford it.

    The East Coastway DLC should be pretty much the perfect DLC for me. And if I didn't have the issue with RSN, then I would have been suckered into buying it. And now I will not buy it until it is on very deep discount, and that's even if they bundle in a Class 73 and a rake of the Royal Train... (that would be good though... ;-) hint hint........).

    My money will now go elsewhere... I have just discovered TT Isle of Man for the PS4. I bought it for £10. It has the 37mile (60km) circuit on it, with utterly beautiful detail. And to my very pleasant surprise, it's the first bike game that I have picked up in 30 years that also has good handling and gameplay. It also has nine other immaculate British Isles road courses, and a dozen distinctly different bikes. It is an unbelievably sublime game. So I will buy the sidecar DLC (£6) as well, which has a completely different physics set-up, just for a laugh. This TT game is not a simulator. But... Ride 2 is (apparently) a fully-fledged GT Sport type simulator. And I will buy it tomorrow for £14, with the entirety of the DLC issued for that game included in the price (dozens of circuits and dozens of distinct bikes with full set-up physics). That will make a total of £30 which I am very sure will be very well spent. And I will also buy MotoGp18 for £10, as a punt. I expect this title (like MotoGP2 to MotoGP17) to be disappointing, but I am curious to see what they managed to accomplish in UE - it has had good reviews, and there's a 60/40 chance that I will like it.

    Three fairly recent AAA motorbike games for £40, with pretty much all DLC included, two of which will finally (for the first time) meet the standard I expect to see. No trains of course. But if Polyphony, KT, Codemasters or Microsoft enter the train sim market, then Dovetail's efforts will be quickly sent to the orphanage.

    For now, TSW doesn't get a look-in for me, for any near-future purchases. I like trains. I like simulators. I like games. I like racing games. I haven't invested more than ten minutes in a bike racing game in my entire life, until now. And now I will buy three of them... TT alone has such incredible depth, that it will take hundreds of my hours (probably around 500, based on the 20 that I have alrady put into it). Ride 2 will take about a 1000 hours, and MotoGP18 will take about 5 hours or, if it's good, about 200 hours.

    TSW is not competing for my attention in a niche train sim market. It's competing for my attention in a world of glorious wonders, that happens to include trains... and everything else. When Dovetail realise this, then they will realise that it works both ways. You don't have to start off as a dedicated train sim enthusiast veteran to buy into a train simulator. But if you price it for "whales" (rare individuals that will buy everything, at any price, whatever the quality)... ....and you don't maintain the DLC, and you make the barriers to entry really very high, then don't be surprised when you run out of whales. Or hospital beds.
     
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  18. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Active Member

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    It does not seem to go so bad for Dovetail.
    Ps4 have 88 millions sold units and Xbox 86 millions, So we know Ps4 have 100000 user so it should means the consoles have over 200000 user in these in Tsw
    So its larger than Pc user now.
    Link Ps4 user
    Link Pc user
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
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  19. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the substance of what you have written here, to a point.....

    If a product is known to be faulty, then it should be withdrawn from sale until it is fixed. If a product is put on sale that is marketed as fit for purpose (with, say, a shed-load of ridiculous hyperbole), and it isn't fit for purpose (within reason), then customers should be refunded. I (quite genuinely) do wonder on what basis TSW is put on sale. It would be fine, in my opinion, if TSW (and DLC) was put on sale on the following basis:

    "This is software that is in development and contains flaws that make it difficult or impossible to use from time to time. If you purchase this software, then this is on the basis that there is no guarantee of quality, in whole or in part. The purchaser agrees that the publisher is not expected to have tested the product before making it available for purchase and accepts that the the publisher is under no obligation to fix any faults that are found by users, whether or not they are reported to the publisher."

    If the above statement is legal as a disclaimer, then fair enough. (It wouldn't be). You could take a punt on TSW knowing that it is a risk, and if you like it, you can take another punt on the DLC, etc, fully knowing the risk. And you are right, even without such a disclaimer, you can stop buying the product (or donating cash to the development of the product), without exposing yourself to too much loss. And this is what I am going to do. For now... ;-)

    If DTG has made any money in the last year, which you purport to be purported.. ( :) ), then this will become apparent when they file their accounts, as presumably the "too small to file" waiver will be disapplied... Most companies continue to file even when their profits are less than £100 per year... I have no idea how successful Dovetail has been in the last year - I hope that they have made a huge amount of cash (maybe simulated fish are in high demand.... and the real-world whales have provided a good yield....?). If so - then I hope that Dovetail will finally look at the TSW DLC that is currently on sale and fix it, ....or withdraw it as obsolete, .....or make it available for free (but unsupported). Continuing to sell broken DLC (like RSN), with no intention to fix it, is completely unacceptable, at any price.
     
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  20. mrchuck

    mrchuck Well-Known Member

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    And lirr is still broken as well.
     
  21. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this. My PC wouldn't let me into this website (cos of their scripts), but I got in via another route....

    Um. Although these numbers for TSW are probably an under-report (for PS4), they are not exactly stellar. If they are matched by similar figures on X-Box, then it's reasonably steady-going.... maybe. (I hear that PC sales of TSW are dwarfed by PS4 sales, but I have not seen direct evidence of this). I always find it useful to compare like with like. Have you seen the figures for Goat Simulator? ;-)

    More seriously (and in almost complete guess-mode).... Staffing costs alone are likely to be at least something like (35 x£25k x2)/12 per month = £145k

    And sales profit of (5000 x £25)/2 = £62.5k (for PS4 for the main TSW title)

    Retention rate is about 10%, and assuming healthy DLC sales by the retained, then maybe TSW on PS4 makes DTG about £70k profit per month. Double that to include Xbox (pure guess) - and you have £140k per month. You then have to add PC sales, TS2020 sales and the fish stuff, and subtract a whole bunch of non staffing and non-tax costs, such as servicing debt (if there is any).

    It's tight, methinks. Very very tight. But not a write-off. So.... If Dovetail clean up their act, they could actually make a heck of a lot of a cash in the future.

    Where's my chequebook....? Oh, hang on... if Dovetail clean up their act.... So... let's review it again in a year or so... cos they could just scrape along for another ten years. It will be interesting to see what they decide to do!
     
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  22. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    What RSN issues?
     
  23. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well, I haven't dug into RSN too deeply yet, but these were my initial experiences:

    1. The reported distance to the objective is as the crow flies. This niggles me on all of the TSW routes as the HUD always under-estimates the track miles/kms, but not normally by much more than 10%, and the error normally reduces. Unacceptable, but bearable. But RSN has two massive almost circular loops along the route, so your objective could be reported as 3km away, when it is actually 10km away. But it's worse than that, because it reports 3km, then as you move forward it stays at 3km, and then... it increases....! It is totally ridiculous. This issue should have been fixed before GWE was launched. And it is easy to fix this, as there are literally hundreds of AP beacons and signals along each route that can report a position, apparently with a precision (but not accuracy) of 10cm.
    2. In the introductory scenarios, the tool tips (hover-text) above the controls do not match the written instructions given (in English). In some cases it is completely misleading. No QA or testing process applied, whatsoever....?
    3. In the introductory scenarios, if the user follows the instructions at the pace they are given, then the locomotive often won't start, because the previous action hasn't completed yet. Presumably no QA or testing was done on this.
    4. In the introductory scenarios, PS4 users have to be very careful about selecting releasing/running for the brakes, or they will drag. This might not be a problem on PC when used with a keyboard, but DTG have still not implemented the apostrophe keyboard key for PS4 users.
    5. In the introductory scenarios, if the user follows all of the instructions in relation to the reverser handle, then the power to the loco will trip out, and the pantograph and MCB have to re-engaged, but the instructions do not tell you this. QA process problem again.
    6. If you complete all of the scenarios (say, under the Scenarios tab), and/or all of the original scenarios, then you don't necessarily get awarded the "completed all of the scenarios" (Valley Veteran) trophy/achievement.
    7. If you use the BR.155 DLC, then you have the joy of the sound cutting out through tunnels - a bug that was reported a very very long time ago. I think this is just limited to this loco, but I am not sure - I haven't really done much running yet on RSN.

    To me, this is all utterly perplexing. I really can't understand how it is possible for a TSW player to be given this low quality, as an initial experience, on the RSN route, in December 2019 (or ever). I can imagine circumstances in which this could be allowed to happen, but it would require such a poor level of specification, project management, internal communications, testing and QA, and sheer lack of pride in the product, coupled with a complete lack of respect for the customer, that it is almost unbelieveable. But this is the reality. The unbelievable truth of it all.

    The double-bind for me is that I purposely waited a very long time before buying RSN, in the hope that years of user testing and bug reporting would see it patched and working. but... nope, I was wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
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  24. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the post synthetic.angel . Many users here simply cannot see how superficial it is DTG on producing its add-ons, and has been like this for years right now. And they are not improving at all.

    And unfortunately, If many users for example give to ECW a 10/10, "best route ever made", there is no point from DTG perspective to improve.

    Many of us have given up reporting issues and problems just because makes no sense.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
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