1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

About The Signaller

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by montes_1234, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. Smograil

    Smograil Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2020
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    35
    You'd run the trains in the order they are booked as far as possible. When one gets late or out of order, you base your decision on regulation policies, these can be national or local. In the UK trains are classified by priority, so an Express passenger would be a class 1, a stopping passenger would be a class 2, and so on. Lots of factors would influence your decision such as these policies, whether the train can still meet its performance target (known as PPM or FPM), your own experience, etc. Even in modern signal centres which use automatic route setting to effectively signal trains automatically, as a signaller I would still intervene if I didnt like the computers decision
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
  2. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2020
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    278
    Excelent. Thank you very much on the shared knowledge. I hope that someone from DTG read this thread and that will answer some on this topic. I will try to keep this alive as much as possible because I think that without a more complex Signaller/Dispatcher train simulator can never be engaging and immersive. Without it is always predictable and on the longer run not interesting.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. 2martens

    2martens Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2020
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    74
    An intelligent dispatcher is the crown jewel of train simulators. I doubt they will have it anytime soon. But a cheaper and equally effective solution is trigger-based pathing.

    Example 1: single track segment
    Triggers are some meters before the end of the double track segments on either end. Once a train passes the trigger, the path through the single track to the next double track is locked in. Whatever trains arrives first at this trigger, goes first. But the order of arrival can change based on delay. Assume the player train is scheduled to go first but you handle your train poorly and drive slower or catch emergency brakes. In that case, the opposing AI train could be faster at the trigger and you have to wait in front of a red signal until the AI train has left the single track.

    Your delay would have resulted in a different experience, without a highly intelligent dispatcher required.

    Example 2: unscheduled overtaking
    There is a trigger some distance in front of a possible overtaking place. The first train activates the trigger. If another train passes the same trigger before the first train passes a second trigger, which eliminates the overtaking possibility, the first train is routed to the side for the second train to overtake. If the first train passes the second trigger first, then it is routed on the main track.

    These triggers would have to be so far away from the overtaking place that neither train has to slow down until the pathing decision has been made.

    Example 3: schedule overtaking possibility
    First train is a local train stopping on the side track (e.g. at Horrem). At its scheduled departure time, the path ahead is locked in, if possible. If another train has passed the pathing trigger (second trigger in previous example), its path has precedence and the local train has to wait until that other train has left the track segment ahead.

    Long story short: with trigger-based pathing you will get the effects of intelligent pathing without the cost and it is designer-driven. Even better: there are train sims out there that allow this kind of pathing. Furthermore, you would not have one central system that needs to know all things. Rather, you would have a number of local decisions involving two trains and their relative order.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
  4. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2020
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    278
    Yes excelent, as I said it would make a difference if a signaller gets atention so as to be improved by a small amount. Yes programing the paths as to which different trains can use if another is on the way or at the station is also a good temporary solution. But as I said signaling should be on the list as a top priority. But again improving it step at a time, or for starters just starting to talk about the different posibilities to improve it.
     
  5. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2020
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    174
    The problem is that this signaller doesn't really support scheduling train by priority, as it is first come, first serve. So if your lower speed freight train manages to beat the ICE to a signal, then tought luck, the ICE will be stuck behind the freight train until it leaves the main line.

    This is a scenario that can easily happen in TSW, when a player takes additional time to setup its train, or he managed to trigger the overwatch PZB during acceleration. I can also imagine scenarios this system can lead into deadlocks, when 3 trains, with some line switches, are involved.

    It also adds tons on unpredictability to the general state of map, and could be a total hell for developers to figure out why some players experienced some bugs.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  6. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2020
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    278
    Yes adverse and signals which changes depending on the train which aproaches them would add a ton to the unpredictability of the whole experience.
     
  7. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    823
    You can see the current limitations as some services need that you stop at a marker location to be able to trigger the override of a stop signal but in other cases signal is already set to override aspect when you reach it. So, as explained above, if you for instance stop in the middle of your service in a station with siding tracks and you simply stay there, you can´t produce any impact on the following services behind you. All them will stop in a line one after the other till you release your block. On the other hand, if a service is wrongly designed or you don´t follow your assigned service order of events, the traffic comes to incompatible situations and even trains facing each other, as they have no alternative to continue other than reaching their next target marker using the original route they have.

    If AI dispatcher logic had the hability to route trains as well as managing the timetables/target markers, the other trains could be re-routed to the siding tracks in the example I gave. Dispatcher would simply need to close the exit signal in your block to prevent that you step into the current newly set routes for the rest of traffic, as now you would be a lower priority service, allowing then that other trains could continue their schedules with minor impact to them. That is what you would normally do in case of a train having a failure in that track in real life, for instance, or even route them against the current traffic to be able to bypass that block. With a "first to arrive, first to be cleared to go" approach you will not have those bottlenecks and that would eventually allow that player can even free roam into the main line co-existing with scheduled services. But this also has a downside effect: if you delay too much the traffic you could be always be put as lower priority and have to wait for the others to pass, being impossible for you to complete your service. But on the other hand that adds randomness to the game, allowing you to play the same service many times with multiple different results each time. But that´s why we use interlockings in real life, as dealing with route incompatibilities and also preventing unsafe situations is not always a task as easy as it may appear to be.

    That would be a solid basis for a real manual dispatcher mode for players. But as it seems all events are programmed into a linear series of events that have to happen one after the other, I don´t think that is possible in short term, if ever possible at all.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
  8. Jack O'Track

    Jack O'Track Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2019
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    82
    Dunno, but every time i really need this bloke he denies me ...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2020
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    278
    Yes that clearly shows that the signaller is absent. Would be nice to have someone from the DTG to show some interest in making signalling more interesting. There are so many oportunities to make it more engaging.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    395
    The only train sim I have found to have anything approaching an intelligent despatcher is the old German Zusi 2. That would regulate if you started running late, as I usually do - I tend to drive like an old man, so you could find yourself behind the stopping service you were meant to precede. It was also able to dynamically route you to alternative suitable paths if necessary, unlike MSTS, DTG TS and presumably TSW which keep you rigidly on the preplanned path.
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
  11. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2020
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    278
    Ok. So on the market are already examples of the dispatcher system at work. So it would make things a lot easier.
     
  12. montes_1234

    montes_1234 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2020
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    278
    Today another big disappointment with the signaller. So I started the service 81906 with the DB BR 155. So this service utilises the cement wagons. After starting from the Hagen yard I pulled the wagons to the next objective which is stop the train. That stop is just before the red signal. Next objective was to uncouple the wagons so I just did that. After uncoupling wagons red signal turned to red with two white lights, so proceed with restricted speed. Not long after departing objective said to stop after about 300 meters. Than interesting things happens. Objective changes so that I need to reverse the train backwards. So I pushed the reverser in to the reverse position and get red light. After changed camera to the outside view in preparation to have clearer view I had DB BR 363 coming right into me. So it rammed into my train and bounced back and continued to move just passed the red signal and stopped there. Than I asked the signaller what to do, and it gave me proceed with the restricted speed. So I started to move and could not continue because the DB BR 363 was sitting at the junction not far from that signal. So if the signaller even exist it would surely know that in the section is another train and by no means would let me proceed until it clears the section.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    395
    If this is all pre scripted in terms pf AI movement, sounds like you were either earlier or later than the scenario expected at that location, not to mention AI ignoring the signals?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Jack O'Track

    Jack O'Track Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2019
    Messages:
    224
    Likes Received:
    82
    What i still miss is a (selectable) God Mode. Deny signals, speed limits, them shitty needed walkabouts especially.
    Would love to bypass all that loc button pressing and peeping around to get moving.

    Don't have enough patience for all that boy scoutish puzzling; even get fed up with the game at times because of that.

    Just programmed a train race in Il2 Sturmovik Great Battles, Moscow map. Fun, and sometimes a loc even jumps off the track and derails another, or just some wagons and the other continues happily ever after. And yes, them tank wagons really explode to boot when you're lucky.

    Train Race 02.jpg

    PS there's a hefty sale going on right now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  15. PBrogaard

    PBrogaard New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    19
    Probably getting off track here, but one way to avoid the dispatching issues could be this: Oriole, hier ist Marabou! färht weiter! Los!
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020

Share This Page