Given this is a new dev to TSW my money is on a modern(ish) Crewe to Liverpool release, and personally providing the quality and price is good Im ok with.
As a new user to TSW (Train sim altogether) and born in the early 80s I Prefer modern.. even in Flightsim, if it ain't flying now in Real Life, I ain't buying it/flying it! Im happy for Nostalgia packs and by the look of it JT cater to this need but I have no care personally for it unless I want to simulate a special event outing and would like to see that added into timetables (with current AI flying past/current station depictions/scenery) .. Current era IMO is what draws the new/younger crowd who aren't hardcore train enthusiasts but find a slight interest in this hobby and being able to emulate the RL experiences they have now is what draws them in.... (you see this in other sims such as racing and FS) At the end of the day, Each to their own and developers will always develop what they feel will bring in the $ no matter our opinions!
Horses for course. I would much rather fire up a DC10, Tristar or the Level D 767 in FSX than a modern FBW Airbus. I even had great fun with the old 727 at one point complete with original “steam heat” autopilot systems.
The 767 still flys and look forward to that when it comes to msfs! (Just not from captain-rort-sim) As I said, Each to their own, some will always enjoy the old stuff and others want modern and its up to the developers on which way they want to go....
Wouldn't turn my nose up at a Liverpool - Stafford route, a decent hour's run and well within the scope of a TSW route and we have most of the traction for it. I make this journey quite regularly IRL so would love to see it in TSW
Hell yeah! With a reskinned EMT 153/170 on the Derby/Newark service so we can take it as far as Stoke
I've been thinking about this ever since the blurry-but-very-obviously-Crewe screenshot was shared on the live stream. It may well be a first route for AAS, but we don't know who's on the development team so I wouldn't necessarily assume it's going to be a short route. Blending speculation with personal wishes, I'm quietly hoping it turns out to be the North Wales Coast Line, maybe up to Llandudno since Holyhead would be quite a distance. I would absolutely take a week off work on release day if that was the case, especially if it was set in the early 90s! Can you imagine the stock and scenario potential? Plenty of opportunities both for new variants of existing stock and for some brand new models: 08, 20, 31, 37, 47, 101, 142, 150, 153, 156, 158, HST, Mk1 stock on the regional runs... Then of course there's the 86, 87 and 90 with Mk2 and Mk3 stock and a DVT, stopping at or flying through Crewe, where there'd be traction changes or occasional drags to Holyhead behind a 47. Plenty of freight runs as well, getting looped along the way. I don't think I'd ever get bored of that, especially if Chester MPD and its triangle were modelled as an almost-central starting point for some interesting moves. And if it's not this then I hope they read this and decide it's a good idea JB
Trouble with modern EMU’s is so many are exactly the same to drive regardless of nation even. One handled brake/throttle so the driver can pick his nose whilst listening to music in his cab, because there is no sound aside from wee wee wee, which again sounds the same as the last one or next one. Judging by the crowds at heritage railway events there are plenty who like to enjoy when trains just seemed to have more character and variation. Matt once said on a livestream that the first steam release “Spirit of Steam” was the best selling release ever at that point. I do think the console crowd like modern best because they are so easy to drive. I don’t think the devs have to go either way, just develop content for all seems the common sense solution.
They're all easy to drive with the right keyboard/controller setup! I don't doubt the comment for "Spirit of Steam" but that was released in 2022, lot of time has passed since that release and it may have changed by then (or may not have)... Look at TSW5 release not one pack in the Special version contains a train I think isn't being used today. in order to get those Nostalgia locos its heavily relied on by 3rd parties. Heritage Events are fantastic, I myself enjoy them here in Aus, the sound of the old classics, watching history roll by of course why wouldn't people attend, I like to take my kids so they can experience days before their time. likewise with old warbirds or Racing cars of past, live and in person seeing and hearing the history cannot be beat, doesn't mean I (or others) want to get on a PC and constantly drive/fly them... I don't mind it as a one off experience online but for myself who lives on the other side of the planet I want to immerse myself in current British rail when in game, being able to enjoy a modern timetable/rolling stock come to life (with a heritage loco thrown in on a special event) for me that's what I enjoy the most, likewise with Flightsim, flying the current aircraft A380/A350/B789 73max, only airlines and routes we see today, and personally have no interest for anything predated as a whole. Devs will go in a direction they see fit/able to design and feel will give them the best return, and looks like they do, they provide both modern and heritage.. Just look at the ECML rail tour, basically only features a new livery for the Class 47 diesel locomotive, the Class 40 and Class 45 (which we already have), a new livery Mk1 coach variants, nothing really new but they obviously felt this would give them best return. Not my cup of tea but for others that will be a must have! I was only giving my opinion and it may not align with anyone and that's fine, each to their own.
Without derailing the thread to much, whilst I'm not an aviation enthusiast, my own interests fit around my own life, and if we extended the scope of eras to anything transport related outside of railways... When it comes to policing, I'd rather the Metropolitan Police fleet of the 1980s, particularly Rover SD1 2600/Ford Sierra/Rover 827 Area Cars, or Metropolitan Police Rover 3500/827/Vauxhall Omega traffic cars over the modern featureless BMWs that couldn't even being distinguished from divisional vehicles and traffic to the untrained eye. (They are being phased out in favour of the marginally better Volvo V90 Area Cars coming on fleet now. But that's personal opinion) With railways, I'm not totally against modern stuff. I like modern routes and modern rolling stock... However I also love retro era routes in the game like JTs BPO, WCMLOS, NTP... And I feel they have an equal place in the game just as modern stuff does. I can be quite happy driving a Class 377 on BML when I feel like having a 'modern' session. But equally, being a BR enthusiast I love driving the Class 87 and the challenge it poses, and taming it, compared to a modern unit or locomotive full of assistance technology... I feel there's a lack of retro content in the game that has so much potential. For me Southern Region Slamdoors units are well over due and I'd play obsessively with them in the game with an accompanying route... (CIGs, CEPs, VEPs, EPBs, all of which has reference material available).
I must admit I have watched some of the retro clips on slam doors and being they were so iconic I am surprised that these haven't gotten into the game as yet
tbh, EMR quietly withdrew all the 15x trains from the Derby - Crewe services so I couldn't say for definate when the 156s were taken off that branch
153s and 156s were common on the Ivanhoe services as well....but they were quietly replaced with the 170s and the occasional 158. But I do seem to recall seeing 153s after the 156s had been withdrawn. So I'm thinking the 156s went first.
Try the tap changer setup on the croc in the newish Austrian route with grades up to 4% and tell me thats as easy to drive as an Electrostar going London to Brighton! Cold start is like comparing getting an HGV truck prepared against a pushbike!!
Keeping expectations in check since it's a new team and I don't know what they're capable of yet. My first thought was Crewe to Derby, fairly easy to pull off and Derby is already modelled Second thought was Crewe to Stafford on the Potteries Line, only 30 miles, not many stations and reuses existing rolling stock. It was smart showing off Crewe first since it gets the speculation machine running well.
Nice cab ride video published yesterday of the Potteries line. If it could include the WCML portion from Stafford to Crewe you would have nice service variety:
Having watched this, and travelled it several times, it seems like a top candidate for a route dlc! Scenic, urban, historic (with unique buildings), freight opportunities, divert opportunities, layering from EMT and AWC.. only thing missing would be all the (currently) non-existent layers at Crewe and some Voyagers! Would be ace if the route included the main line section too!
If they did both routes from Stafford to Crewe this has the potential to be one of the best routes ever in terms of service variety. Logical start/end point for passenger services at Crewe, same for freight at Basford Hall, and it will keep all the “linear route” complainers happy. The Pendo can stretch her legs on the WCML section, and a slower pace for the 350s on the Stoke section for those that prefer the stopping services. So many layering options too. It would be brilliant to have in game…..which is probably why it would never happen.
If the route was just Crewe to Stafford, I'd very very underwhelmed, even if it did include the potteries. People moaned how short WCLMS was for the Pendo to stretch her legs, well Crewe to Stafford (or Stoke to Stafford) is even shorter for the Pendo's. However, if it was Liverpool to Stafford then that would at least give you about an hour's run in the Pendo.
I think be prepared to be underwhelmed, I would very much doubt it'll be a long-ish route for their first offering. You never know though.
I do still love running the old content like NTP and GWE. Despite being dated they run well and I still love the look of them and they work well. I mean sometimes I feel the newer lighting does look a little washed out on some new routes in certain weathers.
(from the Roadmap) "We’re not afraid to take on ambitious projects, and we’re committed to raising the bar with everything we do.” Let's hope they follow through and finally let us stretch the Pendolino's legs (though I'm still sceptical)
It's "only" 52 Miles from Birmingham to Crewe, combined with the Stoke-on-Trent loop you'd be looking at a decent run in a 390, with stops at Stafford, Crewe and Stoke if your run takes you that way - so a bit of variety unlike WCMLS where you're looking for the Watford Jcn services, which still takes the same route anyway. For the operator that shan't be named you'd get the full BNS - Crewe via Stoke service as well as a good bit of the BNS - Liverpool service, and a non-stop run from Stafford - Crewe on the London services. There's also Wolverhampton - BNS services with WMR, with a 323 layer just to make up the space. Not the world's most interesting section of the WCML (I'd happily sacrifice Birmingham for Rugby) but it's an improvement for the 390 upon what we currently have, and is quite doable. (I still think Manchester Airport has disappeared because they're secretly going to Crewe as was complained about quite a bit, so this would also allow for Birmingham - Manchester or Stafford - Manchester runs if that's true)
I do think the ATS route will be extended to Crewe, hence the radio silence then you'd have two routes that would take advantage of route hopping.
Yeah, gone quiet since we had that short video about 'coming soon'. Would be nice to hear what's going on.
To be honest, if it isn't in the next roadmap, it will likely be pushed back into TSW6 as we only have a few more roadmaps until a likely Dovetail Direct.
Those saying New DLC sells better than old have heard (sometimes multiple times) from DTG staff on streams that modern DLC outsells retro/vintage. It's not guesswork and is backed-up by a quick look at the number of modern releases we've had from Dovetail who will, as any business should, follow where the best sales are. Maybe in a few years the trend might change, we just don't know, for now expect mostly modern content. Some of us old duffers like me would love to be wrong about it and be knee deep in 1980s and 90s NSE routes, but it's probably never going to happen. Sometimes you have to accept you're not the target audience any more.
Yeah, it's been a fairly consistent message for years now, I'm very glad JT are putting period content in the spotlight a bit more, though. Hopefully we will see more historic content as more and more third party developers join the party.
Yes, JT have a niche and are very good at what they do these days. I hope they spread their wings and fly south from the North West for their next retro route. A 1978 Metropolitan Line would do very nicely, makes good use of TS38 & TS72 silver stock.
So because Modern sells more we should be forgotten about? The highest rated UK route by a large margin is West Coast Mainline over Shap with near universal praise. There are European routes set twenty to thirty years ago being released as well. I've no doubt that modern does outsell retro but there is still a market for retro.
Since playing TSW and joining the various forums on different platforms I’ve noticed a weird tendency by some people to kind of gatekeep the content they prefer by saying things like vintage or steam doesn’t sell so they should not make it, I guess because they want all of the dev time to go on their preferred traction type and era.
Not at all, why does it seem like everyone on the internet is so binary about things? RIP subtle nuance. Just because modern DLC is the more likely it doesn't mean it will be exclusively modern. Modern sells, that's the big target market at the moment because that's where the more reliable income is from. It's simple business logic. It doesn't mean those of us who like retro will be totally forgotten, it just means that if you have a favourite route, let's pluck a random one out of the air; say York to Scarborough. If we're playing the probabilities game, you're more likely to see a modern version than a retro one. That's how it is at the moment but as I clearly pointed out, trends do change and DLC like those from JT could generate more interest in older traction and routes. The vast majority of European and US stuff is modern too. Thomas the Tank Engine wasn't for most of us and isn't modern, it's a gateway DLC to scoop up younger players and expand their market reach. My wife has just started a business, her product range will start off small because she has to work part-time in London to pay the bills. It takes time to build a business whatever sector you're in. In that same way, DTG aren't yet large enough to cater for all tastes but if they can expand the number of TSW players then maybe they'll release more content in each annual cycle and will be in a better position to try out something left-field without worrying about paying their bills. Frankly if it's British Rail era that you're after your best bet is Train Sim Classic. Anyway, I love modern traction and anything from the last 60 years of British railways. I'm in both camps if you see it as being just modern v retro. For me it's more a case of whether I think a DLC will be enjoyable and in that respect each one of us has a different view. I'm trying to do my bit to get youngsters and the curious interested in the history of British Rail and I'm hoping my historical allocations and data website will be up and running in a year or two, once my wife's business is established and I can retire. Everything takes time in this world.
I'm hoping they save Holyhead for the Regional Railways class 31/4 and 37/4 locos that used to do the summer specials from Brum. Gawd knows the 31 and 37 we have in TSW could do with an update and suspension.
I would love this; getting my local route and local station in the game would be brilliant! Really hope it does end up being this, although to be honest I'm happy with wherever it goes. It could alternatively go to Shrewsbury and back, via Chester one way and then via Wem, Prees the other way....?
My preference is definitely modern day but I bought Blackpool branches after the original great feedback and subsequently Preston to Carlisle after seeing JT’s work. A well made route regardless of era will sell. I do wonder if maybe the standard has to be higher for retro routes to pull folk like myself in and that’s why the likes of DTG shy away from it. I’m glad JT have continued to deliver though and really set the standard of what routes should be.
This route, along with the discussed ATS route would be a perfect opportunity for designers to share development work - in this case, Crewe station. One person can design a good looking modern Crewe, then two or more routes can use it, saving design and development costs. I'm sure an appropriate contract wouldn't be hard to work out. Timetable development can also be coordinated for AI traffic.
I just have to question if there's even enough money in train sim to split the money up in any meaningful way. From what I gather pretty much everyone in train simming either makes enough to get by and not much else, or flat out treat TS as a secondary job with primary job being what actually pays all the important stuff. Having to either give a couple percent of the revenue or pay a fair bit upfront could make a fairly big difference on if you'll take on one route or the other. Likewise would probably make it a lot more appealing to just build your own Crewe over licensing out someone else's rendition.
All depends how it is done I guess, but I'd have thought the time saving element of not having to design from scratch this very big, complicated station would be well worth it. From previous comments from developers, a lot of projects are commissioned by DTG, so they could coordinate these developments as part of a licensing agreement. Indeed I think there is potential to get more routes more quickly if developers could just use existing trackwork, scenery etc. and produce a connecting route rather than having to start afresh.
Great movie, though De Niro’s dialect coach didn’t quite hit the spot with Hereford, came out sounding like Hear fud.
Haha I'm not the only one then who thought it didn't sound right when he said it. Great film though! Watched it again the other night.
The 37s held on these routes 1993 to 2001 all year round and in fact all day and night with the bort trains, I spent a lot of time on the line as being from Merseyside it wasnt too far to get to. The fact that DTG pretty much overlook eras such as this due to lack of demand is dissapointing. I get that modern stuff sells. But the fact is a lot of us would buy this type of route. Well executed BR stuff would sell, its just easier to do another EMU route the low hanging fruit....
